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Will and Wands
and Goetia |
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10-31-2004, 10:19 AM |
#1 |
Senior Member
Grab is Offline:
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Will and Wands and Goetia
Questions to the experienced Goetia practitioners here (or
actually any other experienced "summoners"):
I
have the intuition that I should use my Wand and my Will
better in evocations to make the spirit perform my
intents. However, I have yet to find a single source of
information on the subject.
How do you
specifically use your Will in connection to
evocations?
How do you specifically use the Wand
in connection to evocations?
How do you
specifically use the GD Rainbow wand in connection to
evocations? (It is my only Wand.)
How do you
specifically use the generated L.V.X. in connection to
evocations?
How do you best combine your Will and
the Wand in connection to evocations?
IN ORDER TO
make the spirit appear faster and stronger and, more
important, to get the spirit to perform your will out
there, IRL, that is, practical
results.
/Grab
__________________ Free you mind, or I will do
it for you.
Last edited by Grab : 10-31-2004 at 10:24 AM. |
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10-31-2004, 02:30 PM |
#2 |
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I'm not sure. I use a combination of respect,
flattery and reasonable business acumin to get them to
do what I want. I've never had trouble making a spirit
appear. My wand has some power but I don't use it to be
honest. I don't have a GD Rainbow wand. What is a
L.V.X.? Will and the symbolic wand are the same thing in
my perspective.
I use my will, in connection with
evocations, as being a representation of the higher laws
above the physical plane. The inviolable laws of the
universe made manifest in my desires at some small
level. This means that my requests and desired questions
must be in accordance with justice or love. Therefore
the infernal is more likely to obey my requests. Is
there no greater honor than to fulfill thy duty to the
supreme source of all?
This will can be
visualized more readily in a long, phallic like
instrument, since that side of the universe -intellect-
is the yang principal. So it is a visualization
tool?
__________________
This
so-called universe Appears as a juggling, A
picture show. To be happy, look upon it so.
-
Bhairava (Fierce aspect of Siva)
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10-31-2004, 05:16 PM |
#3 |
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"What is a L.V.X.?" Lux, is the Latin for
"LIGHT" Light, as you know, Being the extension of
God...Divine Illumination within the
Self. ___________________ "This will can
be visualized more readily in a long, phallic like
instrument, since that side of the universe -intellect-
is the yang principal. So it is a visualization
tool?" I think you answered your own question
here  Yes, it's for Visualization purposes. This is
a very elementary concept, and you're very adept with
the practise of Evokation; it confuses me that you
didn't know this. (I say this out of total
respect...just to state that i'm bewildered; not that
you are an imcompotent Magickian, this I do not believe
in the slightest). Light/Lux in
Extension, Rossco Giordano EDIT: spelling
error |
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11-01-2004, 11:39 AM |
#4 |
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Ah, the source. Why are there little dots in
between the letters? :::rubs you with sandpaper to add
to annoyance factor::
Quote:
Yes,
it's for Visualization purposes. This is a very
elementary concept, and you're very adept with the
practise of Evokation; it confuses me that you
didn't know this.
| Lol! I put a
question mark for another reason, Rossco. I am sure you
know it, useful tool here.
__________________
This
so-called universe Appears as a juggling, A
picture show. To be happy, look upon it so.
-
Bhairava (Fierce aspect of Siva)
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11-01-2004, 11:56 AM |
#5 |
Senior Member
Grab is Offline:
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Quote:
Lol!
I put a question mark for another reason, Rossco.
I am sure you know it, useful tool here.
| I completely fail to
understand what you are referring to, LadyH! Please
elaborate.
__________________ Free you mind, or I will do
it for you. |
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11-01-2004, 11:56 AM |
#6 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
LadyHydralisk
Ah, the source.
Why are there little dots in between the letters?
:::rubs you with sandpaper to add to annoyance
factor::
| LOL
seems we have confusion all around. Lvx or Lux is latin
for light, which is a symbol of the divine light, Light
in extension, yada, yada,
yada...L.V.X. with the fun little dots generally
stands for the lvx signs or the adept grade signs of the
Golden Dawn. It all ties in together and it is a long
story I would rather not go into now. I am not sure how
Grab plans to use them in evocation except as part of
the hexagram ritual or as testing signs. Maybe he can
clear that up.BTW Grab when you say GD rainbow wand are
you refering to the lotus wand or the streamlined
version of Kraig's?
__________________ Numen Expecto Reputo
Occultam
Except Adonai build the
house, their labor is but lost that build it. Except
Adoni keep the City, the Watchman waketh in
vain.
"The only limits to our
Magick are our own..." - I AM |
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11-01-2004, 12:02 PM |
#7 |
Senior Member
Leviathan is Offline:
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"Ah, the source. Why are there little dots in
between the letters?"- Hydralisk
I, honestly,
have NO IDEA what the dots are for...I just figured,
"Hey, Aleister Crowley writes it like that, so I should
too!" You can rub me with sandpaper all you want, but
that's not going to change a damn thing about our
relationship! If you want to seriously confront me about
this issue in person, do so...I'm pretty "rough around
the edges" and could use a slight tuning-I am but a
Rough Ashlar seeing to become Perfect (in all
ways).
______________
"Lol! I put a
question mark for another reason, Rossco."- My Evil
Nemesis
...How do you know my name? Did Marbas
tell you about our secret affair within the Triangle of
the Art last time you held communion with him? It was
supposed to be a secret, that I had him change into
physical form of a goat-so I could begin the Moon
Howling Ritual on shrooms-and have my naughty little way
with him. I am relentless in my pursuit of Satan!
Hail, STAN!
Have you been commnicating the
Initiated Secrets to the "Profane" again? I will report
you to the Caliphate!
With Love, Rossco |
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11-01-2004, 12:05 PM |
#8 |
Senior Member
Leviathan is Offline:
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Perfect Ashlar=Cube proportionate by all squares in
equal measure to each other. A Cube, unfolded, is a
Cross  |
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11-01-2004, 12:06 PM |
#9 |
Senior Member
Grab is Offline:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nero
LOL seems we have confusion all around.
Lvx or Lux is latin for light, which is a symbol
of the divine light, Light in extension, yada,
yada, yada...
L.V.X. with the fun little dots
generally stands for the lvx signs or the adept
grade signs of the Golden Dawn. It all ties in
together and it is a long story I would rather not
go into now. I am not sure how Grab plans to use
them in evocation except as part of the hexagram
ritual or as testing signs. Maybe he can clear
that up.
BTW Grab when you say GD rainbow
wand are you refering to the lotus wand or the
streamlined version of
Kraig's? | OK,
with L.V.X. I just mean the divine light generated by
all the ritual stuff (Watchtower or whatever) you do
before the actual conjuration. That is, do you do
something specific with the light, to aid the
working? I meant the Kraig version, but if you
have ideas for using the Lotus wand instead, I'd be
happy to hear that, and then try to convert those ideas
myself. But ANY wand-using hints would be grealy
appreciated! I have now read through 12 different
(heavy) magick books, including 2 Crowley and Bardon's
PME etc, and none of them really write anything on how
to practically use the wands! They just write
"symbol for the will of the magician" yadda yadda.
__________________ Free you mind, or I will do
it for you.
Last edited by Grab : 11-01-2004 at 12:08 PM. |
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11-01-2004, 12:07 PM |
#10 |
Senior Member
LadyHydralisk is Offline:
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fun...little...dots? lol im going to bed I cannot
stop laughing!
Well Grab if I try to make myself
actually sound like an idiot, sometimes I can defray
potential flaming. (in other folders, actually it is
unnecessary in the CM folder)
BTW thanks for
explaining LVX. Is there any reason for saying it in
latin and not english? Are you trying to be cool?
>:O
__________________
This
so-called universe Appears as a juggling, A
picture show. To be happy, look upon it so.
-
Bhairava (Fierce aspect of Siva)
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11-01-2004, 12:30 PM |
#11 |
Senior Member
Nero is Offline:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
LadyHydralisk
BTW thanks for
explaining LVX. Is there any reason for saying it
in latin and not english? Are you trying to be
cool? >:O | Why
to be cool of course. Why else do magicians do the
things we do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grab
OK,
with L.V.X. I just mean the divine light generated
by all the ritual stuff (Watchtower or whatever)
you do before the actual conjuration.
That
is, do you do something specific with the light,
to aid the
working? | Ok
I am not trying to be an ass but it sounds like you are
missing some important points here. You do not
"generate" the light. You call the light to you. You
stimulate the light. You recall your connection to the
light. A small point but an improtant one. Once you
understand this you might be able to better know what to
do with it. The light is your link to the divine. The
light is you. The light is the magick.
Understand?
__________________ Numen Expecto Reputo
Occultam
Except Adonai build the
house, their labor is but lost that build it. Except
Adoni keep the City, the Watchman waketh in
vain.
"The only limits to our
Magick are our own..." - I AM |
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11-01-2004, 12:42 PM |
#12 |
Senior Member
Leviathan is Offline:
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YOU draw the Rays of Horus from the Sun...and then
project your Will through the Wand. When you're not
using your Wand, your hands will do just fine.
There is nothing ultra-secret about the Wand's
use in Ritual other than what you've read-that it is
just an Exntension of yourself (or Light projected in
Ritual). Consider Nero's point about the Light...that
there is an Art to drawing the Light to yourself, and
then projecting that Light. (This process usually
symbolized in the form of the Rod/Wand...the link
between the Crown and the Earth; Sliding up the Tree of
Life like a Serpent and Raining Down like a Sword)...the
Star/Light travels in this way. The Wand is merely a
Symbol of this process.
Just so long as it is
intellectually understood, you needn't do anything with
a Wand in Ritual...or use any tools but your own body,
voice,will, etc.
-EliphasLeviathan- |
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11-01-2004, 12:50 PM |
#13 |
Senior Member
Grab is Offline:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nero
it sounds like you are missing some
important points here. You do not "generate" the
light. You call the light to
you. | Okey... I
perform certain actions in my circle that causes the
light to appear. If it comes from "me" or "god" or...
I'll just leave that argument for the arm-chair
magicians to debate.. (in another thread
please!).Anyway,
please allow me to rephrase
it as: "How do you use the light called to you to
improve the evocations?"
(Edit: Nero, I do understand
your point, and that's even how I view the light, but
the light doesn't give me much instructions for working
with the Goetia or
whatever.)/Grab
__________________ Free you mind, or I will do
it for you.
Last edited by Grab : 11-01-2004 at 12:56 PM. |
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11-01-2004, 12:59 PM |
#14 |
Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grab
Anyway, please
allow me to rephrase it
as: "How do you use the light called to you to
improve the evocations?"
/Grab | The
light will not "improve" your evocation. Without the
light you will be unable to do an evocation in the first
place. Your connection to the divine or light is what
makes possible for you to call the spirit, interact with
the spirit, and hopefully protect yourself from the
spirit. I am not trying to start a debate I am only
trying to answear your
question.
__________________ Numen Expecto Reputo
Occultam
Except Adonai build the
house, their labor is but lost that build it. Except
Adoni keep the City, the Watchman waketh in
vain.
"The only limits to our
Magick are our own..." - I AM |
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11-01-2004, 01:07 PM |
#15 |
Senior Member
Grab is Offline:
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I know, Nero, and I appreciate it!
Though
what you write about the L.V.X. makes sense, my
experiences contradict it. I have performed several
strong evocations without any ritual (I'm well trained
in the realms of self-hypnosis).
Anyway, let's
move on to Wand discussions, please?
__________________ Free you mind, or I will do
it for you. |
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11-02-2004, 03:33 AM |
#16 |
Member
Xa05 is Offline:
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I use the Air dagger more than
anything. GBRP/SBRP corresponding to their elemental
nature(s) God-forms etc. Use the Wand with the
GBRH corresponding to their planetary nature(s) The
index in the Weiser edition has the zodiacal
correspondances, just convert to planetary; and there
you go. I will say however, that the second method
(GBRH) is way more extreme and I have rarely dealt with
anything that did not respond favorably to the first
(Pentagrams) As far as Will goes, True
Will? Samekh, obviously before the actual evocation
works to align your Will. Might not be very conscious
at first, but at least its there. May I suggest that
you consider TO MEGA THERION's comments on
familiars. There are some parallels with servitors
that you might want to consider if you haven't already
done so.
If you see Lucifer, tell him he owes me
money... Xa05
__________________ Xa05 |
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11-02-2004, 04:36 AM |
#17 |
Senior Member
Leviathan is Offline:
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I am unaware of The Master Therion's views on
Familiars...Could you please educate me about what he
says about them?
If you see Xa05, tell her
that the money is in the mail, and that I apologize for
the delay... -Rossco- |
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11-02-2004, 05:10 AM |
#18 |
Member
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Leviathan, the passage I was refering to is MTP
Chapter XI. And, as per my post, relates to elemental
familiars. My later comment was that there are
parallels to consider when dealing with
servitors. Yes? I am trying to point out the
theory of the Magical Link and call to attention that an
evocation is not a one-time thing. Better to view it as
an on-going relationship. Those people who are
starting out may not have had this opinion shared with
them. Nobody told me that with my first evocation I
would be starting a relationship with a Goetic entity
that would carry on for years (its been about 5
now) Evocation is a high form of the Royal Art and
while I encourage the practicing of it, I believe that
education is very necessary when dealing with it. Ya
know, sometimes I'm plotting along and guess who decides
they want some "attention" ? One of those "demons"
that I evoked years ago, sometimes it's like the ex that
you don't really want to talk to. Also, the relevance
of the passage relates to the interconnectivity of the
whole affair. That which the elemental suffers the
magician feels most intensely. Parallel in relation
to servitors in my Universe. I guess my emphasis was
on methodology, working with Goetic beings as opposed to
finding new and more powerful ways to torment them and
bring them under the magicians will. This is
occassionally necessary. But who hasn't been through
hell(e) as a result of a Goetic working? Is this
necessary? Could it be that, based on the theory of
reciprocals, that which one sends out returns. More
specifically in the interaction between the magician and
called spirit. Is one really subjugating one's will
when one is wrestling with a goetic demon? Doesn't
LMD say "DEMONS ARE OUR FRIENDS"? If so, they might
not always want to be called up and it is rather
insulting to start barking orders at them and then
hurting them if they don't comply. Ever have a friend
call and ask a favour that you didn't really want to
do? Imagine that this friend "summoned" you to their
house and then if you were somewhat apathetic or
lathargic they started cursing you in the name of the
Gods. I would love to see more posts or threads
involving magical ethics and philosophy because these
are very important topics. Noone seems concerned with
the consequences, and if they do they seem scared that
things are going to get "scary" Two extremes. I
would say that evocation carries with it a
responsibility, that one would work WITH the spirit and
respect its right to exist. It's like having a
pet/friend/girl(or boy)friend etc. No one thinks it's
fair to beat the dog because it won't fetch; people
seem to think the only option in an evocation is to
fight the entity, boss it around and make it do stuff
that pleases the magician. For those I would say
check out the BDSM scene you can find slaves there and
then maybe have some experience in what having a human
slave entails. Is that a safe parallel? Cowley
himself says be firm with the spirits, yes; but he also
warns against being TOO harsh doesn't he? Just some
thoughts.
Man, that's awesome! Satan paid me
back.
__________________ Xa05 |
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11-02-2004, 05:34 AM |
#19 |
Senior Member
Leviathan is Offline:
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Very important topic indeed.
As I recall,
Crowley advocated the practise of the Spirit Chain for
those spirits which rebel. But stated, that through
his entire career, he's only had to use it once...and
that it did work.
I don't mean to say that your
views are "wrong" when I state the following:
But
I don't understand everybody's contempt, everybody's
sympathy for these Spirits that are bound to our will,
subject to our command. I believe the error is in
humanising them. I can't side with the individuals,
or people that faithfully negotiate with these
beings...or allow leeway and go out of THEIR way to get
something from them...when, you can simply employ the
use of force (through God Names) and they'll do it
anyways, without receiving jack!
Of course, I do
not advocate the practise of performing these evokations
for ego-driven purposes...but to accelerate, much in a
way that you hinted, spiritually.
I think you
have so much understanding on this subject, and have
such high insight...but I don't understand the relation
which you hold to these spirits, of admirable respect,
sympathy even.
Can you explain to me further as
to WHY we should act in such a manner? I am aware of
observing my manners when engaging in conversation with
people, or simply adopting the customs of a culture when
visiting a foreign country...but I believe this differs
VERY much from dealings with these beings. While,
yes, I do believe it important in these Evokations to be
respectful; I do not see the reason to allow such
lee-way for these beings...or allow for unecessary
negotiations.
-Leviathan- |
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11-02-2004, 05:54 AM |
#20 |
Senior Member
DropAndRiver is Online:
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As long as you go into the working with emotion,
will, and proper procedure, you should have no problem.
Beyond the circle, triangle, the demon, and you, not
much else is NEEDED. Props can be nice, but it probably
won't effect the results of the ritual if you don't have
all the trimmings; in fact, excess tools and such can
impede the work because they can be distracting. Treat
the demon with a little more respect than it deserves,
and the demon is more likely to comply. Overall,
skill and wisdom are your greatest
ally. P.S: Try to pick up a smattering of Latin.
It will really help you in the long haul with not only
magick, but also grammar and spelling. This is coming
from a Latin student, so take this with a grain of salt,
but I don't doubt demons would respect you a bit more
than the average guy if you bothered to learn more than
the average magician.  |
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11-02-2004, 06:24 AM |
#21 |
Member
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Leviathan, I Understand what you are
saying. I don't humanize goetians. I don't make
deals or negotiate with goetians. I have tried
several different approaches with goetians over the
years. I cursed them, I used god-forms and names, I
tried many different approaches. The major theme I
have found is that everything comes with a price. I
really don't believe that a goetian never gets anything
from the deal. I liked what Lon did with his
1st. "As I ascend, so shall you ascend" (Qoute from
memory) I think that some people negotiate to set the
price on their terms. Any evocation comes with a
price, here's a personal example. I did an evocation
after breaking up with a girl. Can you guess what the
working was for? (heh heh) I decided I wanted to get
laid. Sounds like a good way to deal with the pain of
an intimate break-up. 'Kay, did the working, nice and
demonic, had demonic visions, had demonic dreams that
night. Things got nice and demonic, so I knew that the
presence had at the very least left an impression on my
psyche (or subconscious) Great, some coincidental
inconviences. Could be tied to working, but could also
not be tied to working. No major results for a month,
few dates but not a lot of sex. Later I was sleeping
and felt something bite me, I woke up and saw a Spider
crawling up my wall. Looked bad, like a black widow, I
instinctively killed it. Okay, next day I woke up and
my ENTIRE Arm up to my elbow was red and swollen and
pus-y and it hurt. It f*king hurt. Went to the
clinic, I was told the poison of whatever bit me was
travelling towards my heart. I recieved some
medication and that was that. I saw a friend later
and told him what happened, he told me that there was a
nest nearby, of Black Widows. Sh*t. I couldn't
sleep for months and eventually had to move out of my
place. I had done Goetia
in my apartment. Could be tied to the working, could
not, right? So, after chasing girls for a couple of
months I decide I was just gonna start f*king. So I
did. And I did and did and did and did. I don't
need to go into great detail or brag or anything but I
f*ked alot of girls. But I wasn't f*king anyone
special, sure they were pretty some had nice
faces/bodies/etc. I got what I asked for. But is
it really what I needed. The thing was I went through
months of insomnia, arachnaphobia and dates with
annoying girls before I got to the rewards of the
working. I'm really positing an
effective/safe/relatively pain-free method of working
with goetians. The thing is there are so many
theories about the Ars Goetia that I believe in trying
these on for size. I really hate hiding behind the
aspect of Crowley and the 8=3 "... I swear to
interpret every phenomina(SP!!!) as a particular dealing
of God with my Soul" (quote from memory) but
really I find that the evocations really just wind up
there anyway, or atleast shows me a portion of my True
Will. So thats generally what I wound up using the
evocations for. I guess you could call it "Goetia for
Yellowbellies"! but it's what works for me, less
crazy sh*t tends to happen to me if I don't put a lot of
specifics on the goetic entities. This is why I tend
to take a more compassionate view. Another Crowley
8=3 (again, I'm sorry) (I swear....That I will Love
All Things" once again quote from memory and capitals
are probably mine. I dunno if I really have much
insight into Goetia, I have
lots of personal experience and would love it if ANY of
my long-winded ramblings would help anyone
interested/involved. One of the things I love about
Thelema, more specifically A A is that one is
necessarily bound to help humanity.
I really
agree that the proper Method is what works for
you. but I also see that there are hard lessons or
experiences that may not be necessary to every
individual. It's about making it easier for those who
follow or are your spiritual heirs. This is what the
magicians of the 1900's did. (GD et al.) Because
quite a bit of information would be harder to find if it
weren't for their efforts. Thanks for the
space. Xa05
__________________ Xa05 |
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11-02-2004, 07:10 AM |
#22 |
Senior Member
DropAndRiver is Online:
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I would like to add that Goetia should be a last resort,
and that such workings should be last on the arsenal of
your average magician. First goes regular outpouring of
Will, next comes Chaos magic, then comes the Greater
Seals of Solomon (they seem a bit safer [in
experience]), then comes Enochia, and then Goetia. ( this is my
personal list of usage, but anyone is welcome to
tinker a great deal with it. If someone steals your
wallet, don't summon Andromalius to kill the theif and
bring back the wallet, try other, safer, and perhaps
more rational methods first. A Chaos sigil could
probably do the same job, and the price and time
required would be less. Using demons for such things can
be like using an atomic bomb to demolish a doll house;
probably a simple hammer could do the trick. Sometimes,
acting rationally can speak a lot louder of wisdom to
the spirits than you dragging their scary selves into a
duct tape triangle and shouting commands at
them....really try to look at things from their point of
view. If you look like a fool in this perspective, they
probably will take you as a fool and either ignore or
twist your command against you. S U M M O N E R S B E
W A R E  |
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11-02-2004, 12:33 PM |
#23 |
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Xa05,
You make a point that I has me
perplexed. Isn't a goetic evocation a rather extreme way
to get laid? I can think of plenty that are not even
remotely magickal!
I'm fascinated by the spiders
though - did you find any link to the working?
__________________ ...and sip
the icy opal; endure till all things change insensibly
before your eyes, you changing with them; till you
become as gods, knowing good and evil, and that they are
not two but one...
The Green Goddess, Aleister
Crowley |
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11-02-2004, 03:09 PM |
#24 |
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Absinthe, what are the most common spells that
beginners use. Love spells, Money spells, spells to
"get something" spells for revenge and spells for the
acquisition of power. Now anyone knows that
eventually there is a realization that really it's easy
to get ANY of the above items. However, use of True
Will or Universal Currents/Will is not necessarily in
the arsenal of the beginning magician. I got laid
yeah, maybe I was a loozer for using magick for that
end. Probably could have gotten there myself
(definitely) But then there would be one less magical
story for me to blab off. The feelings surrounding an
intense break-up. Blah blah blah, really no need to
make excuses. So yeah I got laid, tons. My magical
ethics have evolved that I don't use evocation for these
types of ends. This is what I was trying to get
across. What I wanted, IMHO is not really the
point. The point I was trying to make is that
everything in evocation comes with a cost. I don't
really care why people use goeticks, that's their
business. Its really up to you what you do with
it... My point is there are other opportunities when
working with the Ars Goetia. This is I guess a part
of my working the 30 aethyrs. A governor of one of
the Aethyrs showed me a portion of the
Universe. Saying something like "there are beings
that long for Union with everything in the
Universe" yet again, I'm too lazy to look up the
exact quote in my diaries, but I think I've got the
spirit. Using evocation for strictly material ends
limits the possibilities of the Grimoire, but hey I
guess for some the goal of magick is strictly
material. I've found the Great(est) Work for me is
always at the very least partially mystical. Finally,
the working wasn't simply to "get laid" there was more
to it than that. Just a facet; posting all of the
evocation ritual(s) in full detail that I've done would
be too lengthy, and I'm not sure if people are really
that interested in reading my already long-winded
threads. So in summation of the first question "Yes,
goetia is a rather extreme
way to get laid" however most people don't fuck more
than 30-40 people in a year. Goetia works, sometimes only too
well.
Secondly, I believe that the working
probably had something to do with the spiders. I
don't know if proper scientific method would necessarily
prove it, but my intuition tells me that they're
connected. If you do something "bad" "bad" things
usually happen to you. re: Levi's statement that
evocation is a crime against Nature. However if we
move beyond "Good" and "Evil" I guess I would just say
that the spiders made things extremely
uncomfortable. Much like summoning and cursing a
demon must be somewhat uncomfortable for the
demon. Magick works, the real trick is finding the
right use of the power (right action) Spiders are
sacred to Tiphareth, I'm sure the kabbala is
endless... They also denote impending Fortune if seen
in a dream, I dunno what a spider bite of such an
intense nature would symbolize though, and I basically
dreamt of spiders when I managed to fall asleep by
trying not to consciously think of spiders.
Final
statement: Just because you can, doesn't mean you
should. Take a look at why you are doing something,
if you can find the First Cause, then you have way more
Insight, Understanding and Options before getting into
something that you did not expect.
__________________ Xa05 |
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11-02-2004, 03:12 PM |
#25 |
Senior Member
Grab is Offline:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xa05
As far as Will
goes, True Will? Samekh, obviously before the
actual evocation works to align your
Will.
| Actually,
I referred to just the regular Will, not the True Will.
That is, my ad-hoc Will that wants business success,
etc. Samekh is the distorted Headless Rite from
the Abaris paryrus, yes? I usually follow the original
manuscript, but anyway, it's good and I like it.
Sometimes I do use the AC Tahuti invocation instead. Any
comment on that?
Quote:
May
I suggest that you consider TO MEGA THERION's
comments on familiars. There are some parallels
with servitors that you might want to consider if
you haven't already done so.
| Reading it right
now! Xa05, about the Wands, I was more wondering
how to use the Wand while communicating with the spirit.
Do you hold it towards the spirit and imagine projecting
its symbolic power into the spirit to make it better
understand the strength of your will power, while
repeating your intent... or something completely
different? Especially with the Rainbow Wand it'd
be interesting how one could use different bands of the
wand for different parts of the communication - perhaps
I hold it on the white band when welcoming the spirit,
and holding green (or whatever) when discussing
something and then black when giving the "order" / the
wish / the intent. I'm just guessing here. Any
ideas?
__________________ Free you mind, or I will do
it for you.
Last edited by Grab : 11-02-2004 at 03:18 PM. |
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11-02-2004, 03:24 PM |
#26 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Leviathan
there is an Art to
drawing the Light to yourself, and then projecting
that Light.
| Ah, I just
found this little gem in your post Leviathan! How
specifically do you project the light, and where, and
for what purpose? /Grab
__________________ Free you mind, or I will do
it for you. |
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11-02-2004, 03:24 PM |
#27 |
Member
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traditional evocation usually has you using a sword
and holding it at the sigil, downwards, for making
the spirit obedient. Another good read is the stuff
Crowley wrote on pentagrams and other methods of
"testing and controlling the spirits" I know MWT has
relevant chapters corresponding to this. If you want
to show the strength of your will power, why not use the
seat of that power. Whatever it may be. The only
use I can think of for a wand in evocation, other than
the explicit directions occasionally occuring is for
hexagrams. This is primarily what I use my Wand for
(hexagram or planetary energy) But hey, whatever
works. Maybe just play around with the concepts and
when you want to do another evocation use the plan you
have created, see if it works any better than your
previous workings. It's an Art and you've got to find
what works best for you after the preliminaries are
over. That's another great thing, my relationship
with Belial is going to be different than your
relationship with Belial. What makes him work for
you, may not make him work for me. There are fairly
common methods, but everyone has their own "tweek" that
improves on the exchange.
DO YOUR WILL.
__________________ Xa05 |
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11-02-2004, 04:08 PM |
#28 |
Senior Member
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Xa05, I read your reference to MTP/XI but didn't
get the point you were trying to make. Could you please
elaborate on how elemental familiars and servitors are
related to working with the Goetia demons?
Edit: And
thanks, btw, for some very good posts in this
thread.
__________________ Free you mind, or I will do
it for you. |
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11-02-2004, 07:53 PM |
#29 |
Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grab
Ah, I just found
this little gem in your post Leviathan! How
specifically do you project the light, and where,
and for what
purpose?
/Grab | Becoming
the Central Sun, you will find it possible to Project
these Rays of Light upon whichever Work you choose to
undergo; this Light is nothing more than a projection of
the Will-Influencing Matter with Spiritual Means. In
some cases, however, there are reports of this Light not
being so invisible, but viewable by the physical
eyes. The Art of Projecting that Light, is of the
highest secrets of the OTO. Obviously, (or at least in
my case) absorbing this Light was far easier to do than
to Willfully project it. The challenge, my friend; is
not in climbing the Tree (assuming the form of the
Serpent, as you are the Star); but allowing that Light
to reign down upon you (the Sword)-and, perceiving this
exchange simultaneously (Symbolism of the Rod or Wand),
between the Star's travels in the form of the Serpent
and the Sword simultaneously-will you then be able to
acqire Spiritual Will...Will is power, and power;
Influence of the Will about those things, events, people
around you. Specifically: I've projected the
Light/Current in my own Operations, and to test my own
spiritual advancement, upon material things; of course,
affecting the astral, mental psyche of another, or
Increasing clairvoyance at Will is a far easier thing to
do than to manipulate the physical world by spiritual
means. |
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11-02-2004, 08:03 PM |
#30 |
Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xa05
traditional
evocation usually has you using a sword and
holding it at the sigil,
downwards... | I
have read in one of Crowley's Works, that pointing the
Dagger or Sword interchangably within the Triangle that
the Spirit has been evoked in, or as you've stated;
pointing the Dagger/Sword at the Spirit's Sigil itself-
tends to make the Spirit more inclined to obey your
Will. This is so, because Spirits are (believe it or
not) Simple Beings. To point the Dagger/Sword at them is
to make them Complex, it is to seperate them in many
facets...which is discomfort to the Spirit-and a method
which I advocate-but that it should only be used in
times of need, that is-when the Spirit has shown an
inclination to not obey your
Word/Will. ___________________ Xa05- I
must commend you; it's rare that I've encountered
someone as Adept as you in this Art (Magick in general,
but specifically your knowledge of Evokation). Your
posts in regards to your own Spiritual Growth are a
learning experience for not just the beginner, but even
those who have indepth-personal experience may draw from
what you've said, and further apply it to their own
situation. I value your presence here on
OF. To Do Your Will is The Law, Rossco
Giordano |
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11-02-2004, 08:27 PM |
#31 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Leviathan
acqire Spiritual
Will...Will is power, and power; Influence of the
Will about those things, events, people around
you.
Specifically: I've projected the
Light/Current in my own Operations, and to test my
own spiritual advancement, upon material things;
of course, affecting the astral, mental psyche of
another, or Increasing clairvoyance at Will is a
far easier thing to do than to manipulate the
physical world by spiritual
means. | That is very
fascinating and intriguing, and still I might not have
understood you, because I still don't understand how to
(specifically) use it in evocations. Do you project this
light into the spirit, into the triangle,
or...? /Grab
__________________ Free you mind, or I will do
it for you. |
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11-02-2004, 11:26 PM |
#32 |
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Lon Milo Duquette has mentioned that he evokes HIS
emotions, HIS desires, and HIS will into the Triangle,
so that the Demon may appear.
However, I have to
disagree with him on this point: I have, through
research, found that you don't need to project your
Thoughts, Emotions, Desires, or Will for the Spirit to
even appear...that it will appear, even if you recite
the Evokation hap-hazardly and without that feeling of
*trying* to make the demon appear which so many of our
fellow OF Magickians seem to do.
The Light (which
is drawn by Ritual, or in this case Ritual 666); is
primarily used to further protect, preserve, and make
stronger the link between you and The Highest. I
haven't even attempted to project that Light into the
Triangle...I see no real reason to do
so...Theoretically, as far as I am concerned; any
extension to the Triangle from the self (outside of the
circle) is but a Being's entrance to the inside of that
circle. Inside that circle, is to be inside
yourself...this can lead to possession. Obsession of the
spirit's "being".
However, I have performed the
evokation without a protective circle, or construct of
any sort...and, though was attacked by a being, made it
subject to my will and had it perform a command (though
it didn't perform it to the extent that I wished it
to...and this is so because I hadn't bound it in the
Triangle of Art).
I have also performed the
Evokation without constructing a physical circle, just
included the Triangle, (Dagger should I need it) and the
Demon's Sigil as physical tools...and the Evokation went
perfectly.
Another time, (when I had first began
to work with the Goetics a year ago), I had it in my
head to perform this incredible Ritual, in which I would
raise the Goetics to the Heavens...I wont go in to
detail of how I did this, because I believe it to be of
strict importance and advantage in defense against
others who are familiar with this art, and those who I
would defend myself against should I be forced...suffice
to say; I angered the Demons to a great extent-while
others bent to my will, bowed before me and asked with
humility, "Master, how may I service you?"
This
is a very delicate science, I would advise whoever
interested to make careful notation of their
experiments-it will only make you more Adept at this
Art. You never know, one day you may need it. |
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11-03-2004, 03:02 AM |
#33 |
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First off, thanks for the positive feedback.
Awesome. Okay, I have ABA. The relevant passage is
this:
At the same time, the Magician must realize
that in undertaking the karma of any elemental, he is
assuming a very serious responsibility. The bond
which unites him with that elemental is love; and,
though it is only a small part of the outfit of a
Magician, it is the whole of the outfit of the
elemental.
and,
He will, therefore, suffer
intensely in case of any error or misfortune occuring to
his protegee.
While I have it out, the chapter of
The Nature Of The Magical Link is also very
relevant. My point is this: Some Goeticks are
like elemental familiars, you're keeping them as
servitors, yes? In fact, some Goeticks can be used as
familiars. Ars Goetia's description of some of the
denizens states that they can also give excellent
familiars. Crowley's preface posits that the spirits
of the Goetia are parts of
the brain. You want to take care of your
brain. (this is just one take on it) here's a
take: You want something, you evoke, ask or command,
etc. Now you have to work with the spirit to make it
happen. Not obsessively, actually it works best
without lust of result, if you forget the object of your
desire completely. But on whatever level you've set
up a working relationship with this being. It's like
their an employee of you, if, as Leviathan says they are
simple beings you have developed a responsibility that
you have to maintain. That responsibility is up to
you, treat them as you will. But, I've found that
occassionally they get pissed if you aren't treating
them that well. Here's another point: Evocation is
not a once off working. You are establishing a
magical link with another being. This is my point,
take it or leave it or do what you like with
it.
My brain is starting to hurt. I hope I'm
making sense
__________________ Xa05 |
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11-03-2004, 05:19 AM |
#34 |
Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xa05
Some Goeticks are
like elemental familiars, you're keeping them as
servitors,
yes? | Servitors to
me are created from scratch by the magician for a
specific purpose. Appearently there is another
definition. What definition do you use, so that geotia
spirits be servitors? I evoke them, ask them for
microcosmic improvements (if I was into knitting it
might be "help me master the art of knitting" or
whatever) which they seem ever so eager to perform - and
sometimes ask them for macrocosmic help (such as "make
my knit-work sell well") which IMHO rarely
happens. You are right that there sometimes is a
link opened up between them and me during the first
evocation, and that one might want to do a few evoks of
the same spirit to get it straight. The macrocosmic
"bug" still remains though.
Quote:
In
fact, some Goeticks can be used as familiars. Ars
Goetia's description of some of the denizens
states that they can also give excellent
familiars. | I am aware of
that, and I know of people who use them as such -
however, I was recommended to wait until after the
Abyss.
Quote:
My
brain is starting to hurt. I hope I'm making sense
| Yes you make sense!
*projecting healing light into your head*
/Grab
__________________ Free you mind, or I will do
it for you.
Last edited by Grab : 11-03-2004 at 05:42 AM. |
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11-03-2004, 08:21 AM |
#35 |
Member
Xa05 is Offline:
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serv-itors spirits who serve. Sub-serv-iant
spirits. Anything that you are the Master
over. Like in Abra-Melin's list of servitors for
specific beings, those in the list are under the head
doode. As far as familiars go, I guess wait until
after the Abyss. But what Abyss are we talking
about. The 10th Aethyr? Evocation of 333? Oath
of the Abyss? I dunno, do your Will. Having
goeticks as familiars entails a fair amount of
work. Thanks for the healing light. Peace
__________________ Xa05 |
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