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Grey Magician 07-24-2004 08:49 AM

Demons, how powerful do you think they are
 
How powerful do you think demons are? Im not just saying Goetia, but other demons in mythology, maybe one's from christianity and other religions, but overall how powerful do you think they are. Many Magicians work with demons as a part of their magical path, most control demons but there is always a warning label saying if you arn't adept enough with magic then you shouldn't try to evoke any.

Most demons that magicians evoke can be contained in a circle or a energy like barrier. Many Magicians have their story's of the demons breaking the barrier, the powerful one's and then having to banish them etc. Some demons manifest through incense smoke, some appear as shadowy like, but do you think they are powerful enough to manifest themselves all the way, physically. Many demons can't due this due to the fact that they arn't powerful enough, but you have to have the notion in the back of your head that if there are weak one's that can manifest themselves via smoke or at least half way in the physical then there must be some that can manifest themselfs all the way. Also if they can manifest themselves all the way then what stops them from staying in this world. Obviously this isn't there enviornment but there has to be some motive behind why demons do what they do. What are there intentions? Is there sole purpose to wait around for our call and to do what we ask them because we are so superior to them. I think not. Most demons in nature just want to do cruel acts, according to what i have read. There arn't to many demons that want to hug you. There is a pattern with demons that they manipulate mages, the one's that contact them and want to do cruel things to other people not neccessarily mages, regular people that are completly ignorent ot the fact that there is magic and demons and a whole bunch of stuff out in this world that they don't even know about.

So could demons motives be to get in this world and cause haovic? Cause pain and suffering to people, is that there purpose. Also like i said if there are weak one's that can half way manifest themselves then what makes the notion of demons that can fully manifest themselvs and travel to this world be so wacky. Just because we haven't seen it doesn't mean its not possible. Us magical practicioner's have seen many things that regular people haven't seen, so just because they haven't seen it does that make it that all we have done has been an illusion.

This can seem pretty out there to some people, probably most people, but one thing ive learned while practicing magic and reading up on the occult is that anything is possible. We the magical practicioners are living in the realm of impossibility's become possibility's. So what do you think of this? Can there be fully manifested demons living in this world with a plan to destroy us, and there waiting just for the right time?

Sincerely,

Grey Magician

palindroem 07-24-2004 09:02 AM

Personally I have to offer a bit of disagreement. I don't think they can fully manifest physically in this "realm".
Just as I don't think WE can manifest physically in thier innate environment.
That may be why we don't see them riding the train, out picking tomatoes or pee'ing in the office mens room.
Its my opinion they are completely "physically" manifest in thier own environment . . . as much as we are.
What do you think you could do if invited/compelled to some "state" of the astral ? :wink:

Wiseone 07-24-2004 09:09 AM

yes im inclined to agree as well its just doesnt seem to be possible for both demons and humans to go to eachother's realms. if there was a way i would guess it is a well hidden secret or gone forever.

Daleth 07-24-2004 09:50 AM

It seems to me that, considering all the recorded instances of otherworldly entities manifesting themselves for short periods of time, there's no reason to assume that demons are not capable of the feat. However, manifesting as a fully corporeal form seems extremely draining for any entity. In all the accounts I've read, entities manifesting this way seem to only be able to maintain it for a few minutes at a time, and seem to require some sort of rest for a little while after performing the feat. I think this is a better explanation of why we don't see them just strolling around in physical form than "they can't do it." It can be done, but it's an extremely draining task with little reward.

Motivation is an interesting question, and depends a great deal on origin. One theory runs that they are the results of mass cultural belief. In this case, their motivation would be that which was given to them by the belief of the masses: simply to spread evil throughout the world and turn more people away from good. We can use the common Christian morality to define "good" and "evil" in this case, since most western belief in demons stems from Judeo/Christian belief.

Son of a Montage 07-24-2004 09:52 AM

They're about this powerful:

|---------------------------------------|

Diggit 07-24-2004 10:03 AM

demons(as most beings) strive for one thing: power.

there's nothing wrong with that, like i said almost everything strives for that. Each in there own more or less unique way. demons usely chose the path of violence and destruction. Some will sought or seek that power here, others actually serve humans for the possible reward wich gives power but most don't give a rats ass about our world, why would they?

can they become a fully manifested being, wel don't shoot me for this but in theory yes.
our world and the astral realm are a split world. While we are in fact astral beings incarnated in the correct way into a body, a demon(if he isn't a human incarnated one, in wich case he probebly won't even realize he is a demon) only has a astral body. To manifest he must quick fix something up.

Now like most beings they to have ennemys, and doing something that takes alot of energy is always dangerous.(even for us, think vampires in our case probebly our worst ennemy I can think of) why would you risk your life for something you don't really care about in the first place?

now why are there warning labels on summoning demons? that's kinde eazy.
A dull mortal fool commanding an mighty demon such as they? What an insult the dull mortal fool shall be punished. And most summonings are quite insulting in there own right as well. Calling them forth, putting them in a circle in the name of a god they hate? i'd be pissed alright.

palindroem 07-24-2004 10:13 AM

LOL SoM . . . I think you missed a dash. (mem)

Daleth, I'd contend that even on the short durations they aren't fully physical. Not suggesting they can't do physical stuff though. IMO

MadHatR137 07-24-2004 10:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by palindroem
Personally I have to offer a bit of disagreement. I don't think they can fully manifest physically in this "realm".
Just as I don't think WE can manifest physically in thier innate environment.
That may be why we don't see them riding the train, out picking tomatoes or pee'ing in the office mens room.
Its my opinion they are completely "physically" manifest in thier own environment . . . as much as we are.
What do you think you could do if invited/compelled to some "state" of the astral ? :wink:

*Walks into the Office Men's restroom... Two urinals side by side, a demon pissing at one. Goes up to the other urinal and starts taking a wizz*

Human: (staring at wall) I gotta tell you Vigolloth, its been a pleasure working here with you for the past week and a half. I'm not quite sure you got the memo though. Yeah, about the TPS reports..

Vigolloth: Grraaahhhhhh!

Human: (still staring at the wall) ....*Pause*....yeah, well...I just wanted to say....

Vigolloth: Graaaaaaaaaahhhh!!

Human: If it wouldn't be too much of a hassle, you're gonna need to put a cover letter on the TPS reports....

Vigolloth: Graaahh?!?

Human: *Still looking at the wall* I'll make sure you get that memo again... *Peers over and down toward Vigolloth's privates* ...oh, thats why you're so angry...its so small, and yet, so inflamed....

Vigolloth: GRAAAAARRRHHHH!!

Human: Oh yeah, Suzy....? Really....yeah, I'm not suprised you got it from her...she gets around the office...*nudge nudge*...if you know what I mean....*wink wink*


(Oh man...they're going to be coming after me now...)

Grey Magician 07-24-2004 10:49 AM

palindroem in short durations they arn't fully physical? IM sorry but it seems like you didn't read the thread at all. Of course it is a matter of opinion due to the fact that i haven't seen a fully manifested demon, but i don't work with them so how could I, but to say that it isn't possible is ourrageous. There have been instenses of them manifesting but like Daleth said they didn't stay all the way due to the fact of the draining problem. But then i go back to what i originally said, was that it can be possible that there are some demons out there that can stay corporeal and in the physical. IM not saying all demons can, because obviously they can't, but if there is one that can manifest themselves partly there are one's that can manifest themselves fully, and if they can manifest themselvs fully for even just a few minutes, then there might be a select few, that can stay manifested.

While Diggit i agree with you on some things, i disagree with you on some other's. I agree that demons do want power, but who is to say that they don't want more then that. What are they to do with their newly acquired power, just sit there and do nothing. I think that beings especially demons that want power want to do something with there newly acquired power. Might be to come into the physical and mess with us etc, i dunno. But if a entity or even a human being wants power, there is some motive behind it. They need the power for something. Maybe it is to get into the physical, and in this world. Maybe they don't like there world. There are infiniate possibility's. But we can't just ignore all the instances of demons or entity's that try to come in this world and mess with people, hurt them or whatever. Why do you think there are possessions out there. Demonic possessions are not hidden, alot of the cases are out in the open. Demons possess people to use there body's because that specific demon can't manifest themselves all the way in our world. If they want to possess someone there has to be a motive. If they don't care about the world then why possess little Suzy down the street, just for kicks or what.

My overall opinion is that demons like humans have urges and one of those urges a urge to fufill there meaning of existence. Alot of people don't know why they are here, so they fufill what they think they are meant to do. Like humans, demons want to interact with other beings and since they are striving for power, they want to use that power to scare, hurt, kill, possess or anything that intimidates or causes an effect in this world. Demons are evil in nature. They might think there meaning of existence is to come into this world, take over, or hurt us, or overall cause affects in this world that amuses them. Just like mages demons might want to cause different things to affect this world. We do it by magic. So what make's it so ourrageous for them to care about this world, this world might be there obsession. Until we can accurately pinpoint why demons do what they do and why they are here we have to go by the facts. There are possessions, sightings of demons, demons hurting people in this world and so on. These are all prime facts of demons trying to cause effects in our world. SO i come to the conclusion that they do want to come in this world and that there are some, not alot but some that can fully manifest themselves here, but don't go out and about telling people.

Sincerely,

GM

Wiseone 07-24-2004 10:52 AM

well demons can become poweful when given the chance so maybe one day they would be able to manifest to this world but they might need some help to do that.

SatsUrn 07-24-2004 11:08 AM

Demons for humans is rather a weak subject so why not go to what the Annunaki gods believe what and who are demons. Outside of US humans, there is the "Great Knower" who is neither God or human, nor one of the gods, but IT really did a head job on the Leaders of the Annunaki on earth and off the earth. It appeared in phyiscal form and also in dreamlike states leaving materialized objects behind relating to the dreamlike interaction. Great Knower is the one who pushed the Garden God over the edge of sanity, not that he was too stable to start with! His recorded Ancient name in Sumerian is Galzu, meaning "Great Knower." By the way "Great Knower" is still around.

Nalyd23 07-24-2004 05:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of a Montage
They're about this powerful:

|---------------------------------------|
I have to go with Son of a Montage on this one.:lol:

palindroem 07-24-2004 06:32 PM

Ok GM . . . . I just disagree, in basic :)
I did read the whole thread. I feel that the seperation of "realms" doesn't allow for that kind of thing to happen. Its would be like approaching the speed of light, the closer one gets the harder it is. If one (demons) did eventually achieve getting completely to "the other side" . . .well, I just don't think they'd be a demon anymore.
And I think that "if" a human managed to completely get over . . . well, they'd be dead.
And since that seems to happen all the time . . . . . . . .

:)

(my personal opinion is that the universe works in balance. It does it in certain ways and for certain reasons. but it does it. equilibrium doesn't happen without consistancy in some form. I'm ok with a chaos opinion even . . . it just doesn't really change the thing) (ie, everything isn't permitted. Lots-o-thing, ok . . . but the universe just couldn't work on the everything basis) (sidenote, did ya see that Hawkings flinched in his new thoery of blackholes . . . big weenie, but he's probably right . . . . who can argue with a guy that can't talk :) )

Gremlin 07-24-2004 07:39 PM

Depends which one. Even among them there are more and less powerful ones.
I suppose all of us on this forum know the story behind the word "demons" and how it was originaly used for spirits, and not for what it means today. Spirits or gods were just renamed into demons by early xtians. So their spirit is "god" and all other spirits are "demons". I don't believe in one all-powerful spirit that xtianity believes in. if you read the bible it says in Exodus: "34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God". It doens't say that he is the only one. He just forbids that people worship another. What they worship is just one of many spirits or gods or demons, and some of them are more powerful that others. For me the the question is what makes one of them more powerful than others? Number of worshipers? Sacrifices, or something else? Any thoughts?



Diggit 07-24-2004 08:44 PM

worship is energy, energy=power. same for sacrifce and all the other things.

now why would they need a reason GM?
think about it, there not like us. They live forever(untill killed or something else nasty) while we tend to just die.
If you were immortal and had done everything there is to do, would you need a reason to do anything else? Do you think they have a reason for fighting? other then it's better then doing nothing?

As for demons to be evil, I tend to disagree. Sure all you hear are the bad things about demons. But there known to help ppl as wel as angels are known to hurt ppl.
It's like saying all dogs bite ppl. Not cause they have nasty theeth and sometimes some of them actually do bite that there aren't any nice dogs arround.

DevilsDelight 07-24-2004 10:13 PM

as powerful as the energy you give them...a demon will treat you how you treat them...and of course they're here for our energy...with that they can be tangible in our world, rather than just shadows whispering temptations, hoping we consider that temptation, and give them a little...the more they gain, the more they can do. the trick in dealing with them, if finding a source of energy they can feed upon without draining what one as a mortal needs...that's why the various vices attract them, throwing off more energy than a mortal can use...

just as they have the capability to take that energy from weaker humans, versus those who have an abundance to maintain control...maybe that's why some people are terrified by them and others are pleasantly tempted by them...

cpmg_101 07-25-2004 12:31 AM

However powerful you think they are.

cpmg_101

Jenfucius 07-25-2004 04:37 AM

The perception of power is in the eye of the magician. If he is just a bewginner then for obvious reasons he would have more difficulties in dealing with demons.

Nalyd23 07-25-2004 05:28 AM

The demon that bites is the same as the angel that helps. Based on my personal experiences, I think it is pure information we are dealing with. It has no polarity until we as Magickians project what we expect this information to appear as. I agree with the last two posts here, they gain their power, whether positive or negative, from what we project into it. I usually leave these "demon" projections out of my workings anymore. I find them useless for what I use Magick for. Though I do still take an interest in some Mythos Magick stuff because of my fondness for Kenneth Grant.:D I really feel like blowing my mind in that area.:lol:

LadyHydralisk 07-25-2004 10:18 AM

People just love giving their opinion on things, don't they? I hope no one is actually trying to read this thread for serious research purposes. When the only people in the thread making sense are both discordians you know their is something amiss. (Like a clue)

Grey Magician 07-25-2004 10:42 AM

Your right people do love their opinions, just like you love yours about the only 2 people in here that are making sense are discordians.

There is really no way to determine this. On one side there is sights on fully manifested demons etc but on the other side it is the notion how do they do it, because it take's emmense amount of power etc. But maybe they gain enough power to eventually do this i dunno. Also about the whole seperation of realms thing. We make can make contact with other realms and summon other beings so what make's it wrong to think that they can come and contact us here/come here. I understand the whole theory about the speed of light thing and how the universe just won't let it happen, but it has happened. Maybe these people who report it are wacko's but maybe they arn't. I don't think a demon would just go around telling people that they are here. One more thing, who says demons can't build up enough power to travel here, maybe the big time one's can come here and travel here. The more powerful of any race, human or demon or spirit or anything, can find way's around certain magical/universal laws.

Sincerely,

GM

Nalyd23 07-25-2004 12:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk
People just love giving their opinion on things, don't they? I hope no one is actually trying to read this thread for serious research purposes. When the only people in the thread making sense are both discordians you know their is something amiss. (Like a clue)
:lol: If you are referring to me here, I am flattered, but... I am NOT a Discordian.:shock: I am a Pope and a High Priest of the Church. I will add that just because someone may be a Discordian doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about, the difference may be that they do not claim certitude in their relative meta-beliefs.:D Well, maybe they do. Not really sure anymore. Hmmm...

(Nalyd wonders off to consult the Secret Chiefs of the A.I.S.O.B. for guidance.)

KCh 07-25-2004 01:28 PM

As powerful as you let them be.

oak 07-25-2004 04:40 PM

what you send is what you receive. whether 'demons' are self sustaining entities or conceptualisated aspects of conditioned human mind makes little difference in the end. imo.

Nalyd23 07-26-2004 05:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by oak
what you send is what you receive. whether 'demons' are self sustaining entities or conceptualisated aspects of conditioned human mind makes little difference in the end. imo.
I kind of disagree with this but not totally so I am not trying to argue your point. This is my own personal opinion here. If you "believe" in the "out there" aspect of a demon you may easily be consumed in your own delusions. If you view them as principles within yourself, like I tend to do, they may be easier to deal with. I use Magick to build and destroy elements within myself and it would not help me to externalize "demons" and fall into the abysses of paranoia and obsession. It takes a "knowledge of self" over everything to deal with these "entities". If you know yourself then you should have no problems. This knowledge is the ultimate balance and the ultimate banishing. Take it how you want it.:D

Grey Magician 07-26-2004 08:38 AM

Very insightful Naylyd.

Any more opinions on the matter?

Sincerely,

GM

Gryzlgreedigutt 07-26-2004 10:07 AM

I'm annoyed at the whole "outside entities" vs. "human brain portions" argument. Anyone ever heard of a little phrase that goes "So Above So Below?"

Qryztufre 07-26-2004 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryzlgreedigutt
I'm annoyed at the whole "outside entities" vs. "human brain portions" argument. Anyone ever heard of a little phrase that goes "So Above So Below?"

I tend to agree, very people it seems will change their mind so if it were up to me the matter would not be up fer debate. Any bickering between the sides would result in post deletion.

*shrug* but it's not up to me, so I guess I'll just sit back & try to enjoy the constant disagreements about it.

Q

Wiseone 07-26-2004 12:40 PM

well if demons were to come here i guess it would be the end or something.

whimsy 07-26-2004 01:34 PM

first, demons and angels are of the same ilk: it is how we as frail humans perceive them, and how our brains process such information, that makes a separation of the two, a difference. we take an energy mass and give it order and purpose.

second, any being residing in any plane must adhere to the laws of that plane. hence, possessions (think voodoo). also, why we cannot bring our physical selves into the astral and stay there. we have to die and leave our fleshy cages behind. same holds true for an astral being wanting to shack up in our plane. what laws make them corporeal in their plane of existence do not hold true in ours.

incidentally, this is the type of magick i've been working on lately.

third, anytime you feed energy into something, be it a spell, or entity, it will only grow. so if you feed a 'demon' your energy, you empower it. simple as that. so when invoking/evoking an entity like this, of course have your defenses ready. if it comes through and manifests, it's going to need a means through which to stabilize its existence here. only a turd thinks he/she is able to 'control' such a thing without any defenses ready.

lastly, CAN we psychoanalyze a demon? i don't think the scope of human understanding can grasp what motivates demon behaviour. What makes YOU want to walk the astral? what do YOU get out of it? mae bee a demon has the same reasons, mae bee it's just hungry. and mae bee it just got trapped, and is pissed...or all the above.

by the way, what was meant by your post, Gryzlgreedigutt, "as above, so below"? would you elaborate?

*(PIC)*

Nalyd23 07-26-2004 02:01 PM

Very good Whimsy.:D
I will have more on this in another thread, don't want to get off-topic here.

*(PIC)*


EDIT : Change of heart, not going to address anything in another thread so don't look for it. I have some good friends that keep me out of trouble I'll tell ya.:wink:

oak 07-26-2004 06:41 PM

i probably worded that badly, and this is all theoretical nonsense from me since i've never met one. but i meant what i said in relation to how much power over you that 'demon' has, not all want to get rid of them i believe. and if you do want to get rid of it, i believe some effective banishing tactics rely on you believing it is an external entity. haven't read that anywhere though, that just seems logical to me. and i do agree with the idea that for most people they probably seem a lot less frightening when they know it's just and aspect of themself they're seeing, but for some people seeing such an ugly part of themself is probably not a very pleasant experience either.

edit. it's way too easy to consturct double meanings in english :!:

Mmothra 07-26-2004 09:58 PM

Since any real understanding of the "is-ness" of a demon or angel is impossible, you are stuck with the senses inherent to physicality. Yes, you may get a "feeling" or "intuition" but it is still manifesting within your physical reference. The only rational way to deal with something whose objective existence cannot be proven and yet seems potentially dangerous is to treat it as objectively real and dangerous. Crowley said rather definitively that he felt that the Goetic entities were aspects of human psychology. I doubt this meant that he therefore felt that creating appropriate protective circles and properly banishing wasn't necessary.

Wiseone 07-26-2004 10:30 PM

well if i do meet a demon or get one in front of me ill remember to ready myself in cause they try to kill me if i do something wrong i guess.

Nalyd23 07-26-2004 10:37 PM

You know Mmothra, I am glad you said that. I had a really ellaborate post for this subject but decided it was too much and dropped it (that's what that edit is in my above post). But since you co-signed for me there, sort of, I feel a little better knowing I am not the only one willing to have that point of view. You do seem more cautious in your presentation though.:wink: I may post my thoughts on this in the near future but, for now, it doesn't appear everyone is ready for it.:D It goes beyond "demons" and encompasses the entire spectrum of the "results" of Magickal workings.

Grey Magician 07-27-2004 11:34 AM

This is from a friend of mine here at OF that wants to remain unknown.

"Demons, in my experience and opinion, are as powerful as we are, gods in their own right just as we are. And they can evoke/invoke people, just as we can evoke/invoke them. It's a two-way street. It's not a fun experience.

Be wary if you choose to work extensively with them, and have compassion for them. Perhaps someday they will have compassion for you.

I'm surprised no one else has mentioned it, perhaps this information is more "occult" than I thought"

The whole idea of them not caring about us is completly wrong. Some of us have a obession for them, and what make's it so wrong for them to have a obsession with us, want to come here as we want to go to the astral and whatnot. Just the same going to the astral is hard but very possible, just like it is possible for them to come here, but hard as well. With the whole manifestation part i still stand by my theory that if they gain enough power, then they will be able to. If one of us was a extremely powerful mage, i doubt there would be many things we could not do. Just like if a demon acquired enough power and sustained it, they wouldn't have a problem staying here on this plane.

Not all rule's can be broken, but can very well be bended.

Sincerely,

GM

Wiseone 07-27-2004 10:23 PM

yes that is true now that you speak of that. well than it is most likely impossible to be able to manifest in this realm for demons as for us humans. though by what you say is true than there is a way but probably it is hard to do maybe.


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