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Spirit
control, A follow up from ‘A Change in the
Room |
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07-20-2004, 02:48 AM |
#1 |
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Kinjo is Online:
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Location: Paris van Java
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Spirit control, A follow up from ‘A
Change in the Room
...
Last edited by Kinjo : 08-16-2004 at 01:07 PM. Reason: Deleted as requested
from thread starter
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Fixed up good
enough! |
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08-16-2004, 08:35 AM |
#2 |
Member
Deckard is Offline:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 33 |
Fixed up good enough!
O.K. It's not
perfect but you might be able to get through it without
your brain exploding!!!
Quote:
Deckard
wrote:
This is in follow up to a topic
from before the first hack. My original question
was how to get the spirit to manifest. I would
repost it as a quote here but my save was
‘destroyed’. I received excellent tips from
Ashnook, Master of the Abyss, I Am and others
(pardon if you are not mentioned).
While I
now enjoy the fruits of your advice, I am having
trouble with control of the spirit. Here is part
of the following morning’s
journal
Amazing…Orobas made his presence
known before the first sentence of the call was
finished by communicating. It was the most unusual
method I had ever encountered. Pictures, words,
sentence fragments. sometimes vague, but quite
understandable. I began by asking what he could
achieve but he interrupted me by demanding
…
You may correctly assume I am working
with Goetic entities. I have read most of the
posts in these past three iterations of
OF.
Most information seems to center
around;
1.Knowing I have the right to
command
2.Threat and curses of the
spirit
3.Vibration of holy
names
4.Exerting my will on the
spirit
5.Some suggest offering tribute in
various forms. (I would think to let the spirit
ask for something after it agreed to do my will
and make it conditional on success of some
request)
I would very much appreciate
advice on those 5 points as well as others that
have worked for you. I welcome specifics but do
not wish to be thought a ‘spell beggar’. I would
be grateful for any offsite links or information
of any kind. I feel further evocations would be
detrimental until I have a better grasp of how to
control ‘them’.
Feel free to PM me if you
deem any of your answers too sensitive to post.
Thank you for your
time.
|
Quote:
I
AM wrote:
Hey my friend!
First,
I would like a little more information. You say
that the Goetic interrupted you with demands. Can
you be more specific and lay out the conversation
as you remember it?
Second, you discuss
what you feel is a lack of control. What happened
that gave you this impression?
As a quick
response to your questions I will say the
following.
1. When "Commanding" the Goetic
is it, in my experience, critical that you have
embraced your "DIVINITY". That is NOT the
Christian God. It is more knowing that YOU are
God. When commanding as "GOD" these Entities pay
attention. KNOW that they are there to answer
you.
2. In my experience threats and curses
are unnecessary. If you have embraced your
"Divinity" correctly the Entities already know you
have the capability to compell them. IMO, threats
and curses were included in the Grimoires because
the authors knew that many who used the Grimoires
would be inexperienced. In hopes of not offending
anyone, if the Magickian is fully capable threats
and curses are unnecessary. It is only the
inexperienced Magickian that needs these. Instead,
try talking to them as EQUALS. I think you will be
surprised at the response.
3. The vibration
of the Names is not something that someone can
tell you. However, you will KNOW when you have
vibrated them correctly. There will be no doubt in
your mind. Using the Great Voice will assist you
in achieving the vibrations you will
need.
4. By definition, the Goetic has
appeared BECAUSE of the Magickian's will that it
be there. Again, embracing "Divinity" makes the
Magickian more than they are. Done correctly the
Goetics WILL respond. Again, in my experience, the
Goetics respond very well if the Magickian KNOWS
he or she is a God.
5. As far as tribute
goes I will say the following. ANY tribute must be
acceptable to the Magickian. It must be something
that the Magickian is WILLING to give freely. A
Goetic's first demand for tribute OPENS
NEGOTIATIONS. They can ask for the moon but often
settle for a picture of it. Understand? Blood
sacrifice, or the offering of any body fluid, is
unnecessary in my experience. Many Goetics will
attempt to bend you to their will and tribute is
one way that this occurs. You need to be in
control at all times during the
negotiations.
These Entities WILL test the
Magickian. They will test the Circle, test the
Magickian's control, and test the ability of the
Magickian to discern truth. However they can also
be very helpful. If Magickians are in control of
themselves then they are in control of the
Ceremony.
Just my few thoughts. I look
forward to the responses of others. I hope this
quick answer proves helpful.
Humbly, I AM
Deckard
wrote:
First of all this is all astral.
I spent months trying to get something to show up
in the room. My method of skrying is to close my
eyes in an already dark room.
Quote:
Partial
Quote of I AM: First, I would like a
little more information. You say that the Goetic
interrupted you with demands. Can you be more
specific and lay out the conversation as you
remember it?
Second, you discuss what you
feel is a lack of control. What happened that
gave you this impression?
| It seems so
stupid but here goes...He showed me that he wanted
me to go to a bar and drink two beers. I had the
idea that he might have wanted to 'ride along' for
this, but it just occured to me that he could have
been trying to get me into some situaton, which he
would engineer. I asked him where? (my thoughts
are directed to the entity in my best aproximation
of the great voice) He showed me a waxing cresent
moon. I thought, at the time, this was part of a
lable like on a microbrewed beer. It occures to me
now that it could have been part of a bar sign or
a time of the month. This seems not specific
enough for me to act on and yes, a little bit
crazy. Wouldn't the first thought (during the
evokation) be the one he sent me? My response_was,
that would be fine if and when my demands were
satisfied. Again I asked what his office and areas
of influence is. He then sort of dazzled me with
seemingly unrelated thoughts (hard to remember). I
kept trying to break in with what I needed him to
accomplish. I felt like a cat meowing for food
only to have a feather waved at him instead. It
was distracting. He was running the show. I tried
repeating myself to no avail. I tried asking him
how he would fufill my request. Not even a vague
reply was given. I must have fallen asleep
after this point because I woke up having
remembered a vivid dream. In it a female was
addressing another problem I have. Not the reason
I called Orobas. But one of many problems I
mentioned to him Could she have been one of his
ministering spirits or just my imagination gone
amuck?
Quote:
Partial
Quote of I AM: 1. When "Commanding" the
Goetic is it, in my experience, critical that
you have embraced your "DIVINITY". That is NOT
the Christian God. It is more knowing that YOU
are God. When commanding as "GOD" these Entities
pay attention. KNOW that they are there to
answer you.
| Yes. I must
have gotten too excited from it just showing up.
It was kind of jawdropping expreience.
Quote:
Partial
Quote of I AM: 2. In my experience
threats and curses are unnecessary. If you have
embraced your "Divinity" correctly the Entities
already know you have the capability to compell
them. IMO, threats and curses were included in
the Grimoires because the authors knew that many
who used the Grimoires would be inexperienced.
In hopes of not offending anyone, if the
Magickian is fully capable threats and curses
are unnecessary. It is only the inexperienced
Magickian that needs these. Instead, try talking
to them as EQUALS. I think you will be surprised
at the
response.
| This
also sounds like great advice. I will use that
approach.
Quote:
Partial
Quote of I AM: 3. The vibration of the
Names is not something that someone can tell
you. However, you will KNOW when you have
vibrated them correctly. There will be no doubt
in your mind. Using the Great Voice will assist
you in achieving the vibrations you will need.
| This KNOWING
has not happened for me. I will try to hunt down
information on how to practice/develop that.
Quote:
Partial
Quote of I AM: 4. By definition, the
Goetic has appeared BECAUSE of the Magickian's
will that it be there. Again, embracing
"Divinity" makes the Magickian more than they
are. Done correctly the Goetics WILL respond.
Again, in my experience, the Goetics respond
very well if the Magickian KNOWS he or she is a
God.
| Obviously
I need to work on this.
Quote:
Partial
Quote of I AM: ...ANY tribute must be
acceptable to the Magickian. It must be
something that the Magickian is WILLING to give
freely. A Goetic's first demand for tribute
OPENS NEGOTIATIONS. They can ask for the moon
but often settle for a picture of it...
| This is so
damn funny!!! I don't mean to discredit it. It's
that I see the truth in it and it made me laugh!
Better than I have in a long time. If Ipos or Aim
were around they would say I should probably get
out more.
Quote:
Partial
Quote of I AM: These Entities WILL test
the Magickian. They will test the Circle, test
the Magickian's control, and test the ability of
the Magickian to discern truth. However they can
also be very helpful. If Magickians are in
control of themselves then they are in control
of the Ceremony.
| I am the proof
of this.
Quote:
Partial
Quote of I AM: Just my few thoughts. I
look forward to the responses of others. I hope
this quick answer proves helpful.
| I am truely
greatfull for your time and wisdom!
|
Quote:
Kaymon
wrote:
I find it all very highly
amusing that people still seek control over these
beings..
If these beings can do what is
said that they can do, then there are two
options. 1. You are NOT summoning a demon 2.
You are summoning a different spirit who is
pretending to be a demon.
It does not make
sense that any demon that is more powerful than
any very good magician would bend to anyone's
will. These beings have been around since man, so
a long time. If I was a demon then I wouldnt
bend to your pathetic will, I would most likely
either kill you or ignore you..
Therefore I
suggest, that ceremonial magicians are drawing the
attention of other entities and not demons,
although there would be some cases where
ceremonial magicians have summoned
demons.
If you ARE god then why can you do
what the demon does? It is foolish to think that
you are a god to these creatures.. that is if you
are summoning real demons.
Believe what you
will, but I refuse to believe that people who
believe that they are gods and presume they can
banish powerful entities willy nilly, actually
summon demons.
|
Quote:
I
AM wrote:
Quote:
Originally
Posted by Kaymon I find it all very
highly amusing that people still seek control
over these beings..
If these beings can
do what is said that they can do, then there are
two options. 1. You are NOT summoning a
demon 2. You are summoning a different spirit
who is pretending to be a demon.
It does
not make sense that any demon that is more
powerful than any very good magician would bend
to anyone's will. These beings have been around
since man, so a long time. If I was a demon
then I wouldnt bend to your pathetic will, I
would most likely either kill you or ignore
you..
Therefore I suggest, that
ceremonial magicians are drawing the attention
of other entities and not demons, although there
would be some cases where ceremonial magicians
have summoned demons.
If you ARE god then
why can you do what the demon does? It is
foolish to think that you are a god to these
creatures.. that is if you are summoning real
demons.
Believe what you will, but I
refuse to believe that people who believe that
they are gods and presume they can banish
powerful entities willy nilly, actually summon
demons.
| From
your comments it does not sound like you have ever
practiced Ceremonial Magick. If you had you would
know that banishing IS effective and that you CAN
summon these beings.
Your beliefs are your
choice. However, belief is no substitute for
knowledge and experience. Perhaps if you actually
tried summoning a Goetic then your posts would be
different.
Please do not try impose your
limits on others.
|
Quote:
Leviathan
wrote:
I AM, well said.
Kaymon,
return to the Athiest Forum.
With
Love, Aleister ______________
"Get
the mind into the habit of calling up the opposite
to every thought that may arise."- Crowley
|
Quote:
Leviathan
wrote:
A Question...
If you are
the Circle, what is it exactly that protects you
from an entity trying to force it's way inside? Is
it the Light/Fire of your Soul that acts like a
shield, burning every impure form?
|
Quote:
Kaymon
wrote: my point was that if demons can do
as it is written what they can do, why could they
even be banished a demon that can sink warships
but cannot touch a magician inside his
circle??
Does not make sense if you think
about it logically.
Leviathan - I havent
come from atheist forum so Im not intending on
going back there.
I practice magik whether
or not you would call it ceremonial magik is a
different matter.
My practice is different
to yours.. much different I do not fall into the
false trappings of egos like you appear
to.
Maybe once you summon a REAL demon then
you can lecture me on how to practice magik..
however your limits are restricting you I am
not implacing mine on anyone.
Goetics and
demons are the same... OHH scarey thought aint
it.. just that Solomon managed to write down some
but there are lot and lots more.
If you
wish you could always try it my way and see what
your result ends up as.. however I have tried it
your way and the responses I got were very
hostile.]
| Ludi
wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
My practice is different to yours.. much
different I do not fall into the false trappings
of egos like you appear to.
Serve no master
but your own ambition
|
Quote:
Kaymon
wrote:
Ambition is different to
ego.
An ego is what you make out yourself
to be.
An ambition is something you wish to
achieve.
Do not see where you are coming
from ?
|
Quote:
I
AM moderated:
Alright. Everyone has
had their say. This has gotten WAY OFF TOPIC.
Let's get back on topic shall
we?
|
Quote:
Deckard
wrote:
Quote:
Kaymon
said: Therefore I suggest, that ceremonial
magicians are drawing the attention of other
entities and not demons, although there would be
some cases where ceremonial magicians have
summoned demons. | I
cannot disagree with this opinion. A am not
exactly sure what they are. But I do not believe
they just popped in from a lake of fire where they
have been roasting for their insubordination. In
Summoning Spirits, it is recomened that the
exorcist obtain proof of the entity's identity. In
my admitted ignorance I always skip this step. Do
any of you, actually summoning, do this? If so I
would like to know of your successes and failures.
If not apt here please start a new
topic.
|
Quote:
Kaymon
wrote:
Would it really
matter?
Im sure there are lots of demons
that share the same name.
So imagine for a
minute that you call upon fred.. Fred's reason for
being is to fix hairdryers. Lots of people are
summoning fred at the orders of what he is being
asked to do keeps going up and up so all the freds
group together in order to answer the request of
fixing hairdryers.
So if you infact get the
wrong entity that you want to summon but they end
up serving the same purpose then does it really
matter?
|
Quote:
Iamu
wrote:
Quote:
my
point was that if demons can do as it is written
what they can do, why could they even be
banished a demon that can sink warships but
cannot touch a magician inside his
circle??
| Because
summoning a demon and running a ship are games
played by different rules. Generally, a demon
won't just swoop in and start tearinng the hull
apart with their bare hands--they'll influence the
weather, or the entities responsible for the
weather, or they'll play with the heads of the
crew. If the crew is sufficiently protected
magically, they'll be immune to the demon's mind
games. If the weather is sufficiently stabilized
magically, the demon can't sink the ship with a
storm.
In this case, a warship isn't
exactly a pillar of stability, because they tend
not to employ magicians. No matter how powerful an
army, if you attack from a completely unguarded
angle, of course you're gonna be able to do some
damage even with very limited resources at your
disposal.
Quote:
Quote:
It does not make sense that any demon that
is more powerful than any very good magician
would bend to anyone's will. These beings have
been around since man, so a long time. If I
was a demon then I wouldnt bend to your pathetic
will, I would most likely either kill you or
ignore you...
| Firstly, it's
not necessarily the consequences the demon would
receive DIRECTLY from the magician, but often
those it would receive indirectly, coming from
higher powers who have a stake in the magician's
work. I'm noticing word gets round on astral
pretty damn quickly.
Secondly, the demons
often ask for compensation. Their requests often
seem obscure to us, but I'm sure they're more
often than not very pointed and calcuted. Seeing
as the demons exist on a plane where time and
space pose virtually no boundary, I'd imagine they
know quite a bit more about the big picture, and
can often bring about some serious effects through
the smallest of details. Not to mention, if things
go well between the demon and the magician, a
powerful magician sympathetic to the demon is
probably worth more than the joy it'd get from
squashing him like a bug at an earlier point in
his development.
And in reply to your
latest post, you're assuming these entities
function like you do on a particular level. Who
said the demon can't comfortably be in a 1000
places at once?
|
Quote:
Kaymon
wrote:
To my knowledge a demon has no
one to answer to other than to more powerful
demons.
A demon would not do a task set
that would get them in trouble with bigger
stronger demons that could kick their
ass.
I know not of any deities that
influence demons as they stand on their own two
feet if they wish to have them and are not swayed
easily.
And again to my knowledge when a
demon is summoned they are only summoned at one
time and in one place.. seeming as they live out
of space and time, you would think this is not so.
However we see time as linear and they see time as
relative, so theoritically they could but they
don't. One job at one time they cannot be at 1000
places at once although I do not know the reason
why.
|
Quote:
Iamu
wrote:
Quote:
I
know not of any deities that influence demons as
they stand on their own two feet if they wish to
have them and are not swayed
easily
| .
Funny... I guess all those divine
names in Solomon's triangle and circle are there
for purely decorative purposes. And the demons
only observe their power because they think it's
funny how deluded all us magicians
are.
Quote:
However
we see time as linear and they see time as
relative, so theoritically they could but they
don't. One job at one time they cannot be at
1000 places at once although I do not know the
reason why.
| This is total
contradiction to what I've heard from most people
who practice Goetia and have asked a demon about
this. Not that those people are the ultimate
authority, but you haven't even given a reason why
this is so, even after acknowledging that it
should be possible for them to do this. Do you
have any proof at all, maybe a source to cite, or
are you just making things up to fit your
argument?
|
Quote:
I
AM wrote:
It IS important to always
validate what the Entity tells you. And regardless
what others might say the Name and Sigil are
UNIQUE to that particular Demon. Additionally the
appearance is also a unique identifier in my
experience. This is true for ANY Entity that is
summoned.
When reading the Goetia notice
that a UNIQUE Sigil and Name of Calling are
associated with each Demon. The magickian does not
randomly call for "Fred" when performing a Goetic
operation. The Magickian calls for a specific
entity using a UNIQUE Name of calling and a UNIQUE
Sigil. If the Name of Calling and the Sigil that
the magickian uses are the correct ones for that
entity, there is only ONE Entity that CAN appear
if the Ritual is performed correctly AND THE
MAGICKIAN IS IN CONTROL. I have not had an
experience where this did NOT occur. That said,
after the initial summoning the Magickian may not
care if an underling is sent in subsequent
summonings so long as the magickian's requirements
are met and it was AGREED to by the
Magickian.
There are MANY magickians in the
Forum that have successfully summoned Goetics.
They have detailed their experiences not only in
this forum but in the previous forums before they
were hacked. You need to listen to them. The
summoning experiences these magickian's have
shared ring TRUE to others that have summoned
successfully. These magickians have CREDIBILITY
concerning Goetic operations. I submit that those
who actually do summon these beings REALLY DO know
what they are talking about. Those that do not
summon these beings can only
guess.
Finally, a successful summoning
experience is MORE than just evokation. A
successful experience:
- requires that the
magickian had control which means that the
"hostile" actions of the Demon, if they occured,
CEASED on command of the magickian.
-
requires that the magickian successfully
communicated their desires to the Goetic and that
the Entity acknowledged those desires.
-
requires that the Demon PERFORMED the requested
action within the SPECIFIED time period or
ANSWERED correctly the question(s) given to them.
- requires that the Demon departed when
given liscense to do so and that NO ILL EFFECTS
remained after Banishing.
There are other
elements but you get the idea.
Humbly, I AM
|
Quote:
Kaymon
wrote:
Quote:
Originally
Posted by Iamu Funny... I guess all those
divine names in Solomon's triangle and circle
are there for purely decorative purposes. And
the demons only observe their power because they
think it's funny how deluded all us magicians
are.
| This is
total contradiction to what I've heard from most
people who practice Goetia and have asked a demon
about this. Not that those people are the ultimate
authority, but you haven't even given a reason why
this is so, even after acknowledging that it
should be possible for them to do this. Do you
have any proof at all, maybe a source to cite, or
are you just making things up to fit your
argument?
Demons aren't controlled
by divine names?? As I have said before I do not
believe that people using this form of summoning
are actually summoning demons.
There was a
post somewhere on a site and I shall try and find
it and give you the link in a PM? or if you wish
on here so everyone can have a look? I would not
want trouble brought to this particular site that
I go to so everyone would have to be on their best
behaviour
Time is relative, 1 is not
followed by 2 and 3 etc 1, 2, 3 all occupy the
same space as said by another demon.
Quote:
1
is not followed by 2 followed by 3 and so on. 1
occupies the same time and space as 2 and so on.
Nothing is linear.
| The demon who
relayed this information is called
Berkaial.
Just because we have a
difference in opinion does not mean that I will
not listen to your side of things.
|
Quote:
Kaymon
wrote:
Quote:
Originally
Posted by I AM It IS important to always
validate what the Entity tells you. And
regardless what others might say the Name and
Sigil are UNIQUE to that particular Demon.
Additionally the appearance is also a unique
identifier in my experience. This is true for
ANY Entity that is summoned.
When
reading the Goetia notice that a UNIQUE Sigil
and Name of Calling are associated with each
Demon. The magickian does not randomly call for
"Fred" when performing a Goetic operation.
| How close is
the actual goetia you have today in comparrison to
the one Solomon used? or the one that Agrippa
used? It is very likely that seals in the book are
not correct anymore, repetitive use of sigils down
the ages has most likely changed the way they
seals look, too much of a curve here and there, a
rough mistake of circles get the idea? tiny
mistakes that may have been repetited again and
again and more mistakes made so that the goetia
seals you have today does not look like anything
you have today.
Quote:
There
are MANY magickians in the Forum that have
successfully summoned Goetics. They have
detailed their experiences not only in this
forum but in the previous forums before they
were hacked. You need to listen to them. The
summoning experiences these magickian's have
shared ring TRUE to others that have summoned
successfully. These magickians have CREDIBILITY
concerning Goetic operations. I submit that
those who actually do summon these beings REALLY
DO know what they are talking about. Those that
do not summon these beings can only guess.
| Perphaps you do
not summon demons but other entities? Try and
except that possibility as there are more entities
than just demons. I will also except the
possibility that everything I have learnt to
believe about ceremonial magicians could be wrong
and that they actually do summon demons.
|
Quote:
Kinjo
wrote:
Quote:
Originally
Posted by I AM Finally, a successful
summoning experience is MORE than just
evokation. A successful experience:
-
requires that the magickian had control which
means that the "hostile" actions of the Demon,
if they occured, CEASED on command of the
magickian.
- requires that the magickian
successfully communicated their desires to the
Goetic and that the Entity acknowledged those
desires.
- requires that the Demon
PERFORMED the requested action within the
SPECIFIED time period or ANSWERED correctly the
question(s) given to them.
- requires
that the Demon departed when given liscense to
do so and that NO ILL EFFECTS remained after
Banishing.
There are other elements but
you get the idea.
Humbly, I AM
| another great
contribution by iam. very well said. just the info
i need.
you are the engine of this forum i
am.
Quote:
Originally
Posted by I AM - requires that the
magickian had control which means that the
"hostile" actions of the Demon, if they occured,
CEASED on command of the magickian.
| i am, the
question here, is how by the knowledge and will power and
faith of the magician of divinity confirm pls.
if it's true,
how do you acquire that faith
|
Quote:
I
AM wrote:
Quote:
Originally
Posted by Kaymon How close is the actual
goetia you have today in comparrison to the one
Solomon used? or the one that Agrippa used? It
is very likely that seals in the book are not
correct anymore, repetitive use of sigils down
the ages has most likely changed the way they
seals look, too much of a curve here and there,
a rough mistake of circles get the idea? tiny
mistakes that may have been repetited again and
again and more mistakes made so that the goetia
seals you have today does not look like anything
you have today.
Perphaps you do not
summon demons but other entities? Try and except
that possibility as there are more entities than
just demons. I will also except the possibility
that everything I have learnt to believe about
ceremonial magicians could be wrong and that
they actually do summon
demons.
Kaymon
| I will relate an
early experience that I had with a Goetic
summoning. When I was first starting years ago I
performed a summoning experience and used a
"Goetia SEAL" from Waite's "Cermonial Magick"
book. The Entity did answer the summoning,
CORRECTED the SEAL, and then granted my request.
Waite's book, as I later learned from experience,
had many of the SEALS drawn
incorrectly...presumably to protect the innocent
(BTW, let this be a caution for members that wish
to contact Goetic Entities...you do not want to
use Waite's book for your reference). In this
case, the Entity provided me with the correct SEAL
and it did match the actual Goetia. From an
authenticity point of view this worked pretty well
for me. I have found that the Entity will ensure
you have the correct SEAL if it really
matters.
From that point on I used the
SEALS found in the Goetia and I validated them
with the Entities that I summoned. I also
discovered through these experiences that "close
is good enough" when using SEALS. Do not
misunderstand me, we need to get the SEALS as
close to accurate as possible. That said, I found
that the Entities responded even if I drew the
SEALS badly (I am not an artist), corrected me
when I did something wrong, and that it validated
in other sources.
I would also like to
address something else. I wish we could throw out
the Christian concepts of "Good and Evil" ,
"Heaven and Hell", and "Angels and Demons" when
discussing the Greater and Lesser Keys of Solomon.
The Goetic Demons can heal and do many
other "GOOD" things and Angels can RUIN your
entire day, or someone else's for that matter, by
doing "BAD" things. In my experience, the
Christian concepts of Good and Evil do not apply
when talking about "Angelic" and "Demonic" forces.
I am not even certain that the human mind can even
comprehend their full nature. I just know that how
we view good and evil and how "Angels and Demons"
view good and evil are very different.
It
is my opinion, based on my experience, that
Angelic and Demonic forces are just different
forces with different methods of action. I do not
view the Entities of the Goetia as Demons (Not in
the Christian sense). That is just my personal
opinion. I will leave it to the religious among
the members to argue whether they correspond to
the Biblical account of Angels and Demons. That is
NOT a discussion I am interested in participating
in.
Simularly, many Demons (Non-Goetia)
today are the Gods of yesterday. When one religion
supplanted another, the old Gods tended to become
Demons. If this is all it takes to make an Entity
a Demon then we need to change our definitions, or
at least our understanding, of Demonic
forces.
I hope this makes some of my views
more clear.
Humbly, I AM
|
Quote:
Tzimtzum
wrote:
Quote:
Originally
Posted by Kaymon How close is the actual
goetia you have today in comparrison to the one
Solomon used? or the one that Agrippa used? It
is very likely that seals in the book are not
correct anymore, repetitive use of sigils down
the ages has most likely changed the way they
seals look, too much of a curve here and there,
a rough mistake of circles get the idea? tiny
mistakes that may have been repetited again and
again and more mistakes made so that the goetia
seals you have today does not look like anything
you have today.
Perphaps you do
not summon demons but other entities? Try and
except that possibility as there are more
entities than just demons. I will also except
the possibility that everything I have learnt to
believe about ceremonial magicians could be
wrong and that they actually do summon
demons.
Kaymon
| Well, considering
that I don't use the seals from the Solamnic texts
(at least not for some time), I would say that
possibility exists, though the likelyhood is very
remote. The seal itself is important, but not for
it's absolute accuracy. They could more accurately
be simply considered markers, the name and intent
is more important. I've had the opportunity to
study a first edition of De Occulta Philosophiae,
and the changes, if any, are simply to make them
even more accurate. Yes, the overall accuracy of
the information has imporoved greatly over the
last 500 years due to diligent study and improved
scholarship (much thanks to A.E. Waite and M.
Mathers).
|
Quote:
Ekron
wrote:
Following on from what Tzimtzum
says re. accuracy of sigils I would like to bring
to ones attention the new editiion of 'The Lesser
Key of Solomon' ed. by Joseph Paterson, published
2001. If I may just quote the acknowledgement, "I
would like to thank the British Museum for
allowing me to study the manuscripts firsthand,
and for their help in preparing microfilm copies.
I am particularly grateful for the high quality
negative of Sloane 3825, which they prepared
specially".
So if anyone is in doubt as to
the accuracy of these sigils I would recommend
this book.
|
Quote:
I
AM wrote:
Quote:
Originally
Posted by Kinjo another great
contribution by iam. very well said. just the
info i need.
you are the engine of this
forum i am.
| That's funny.
I have always considered members such as yourself
as the "engine" of the CM Forum. I would liken
myself more to a worn out spark plug wire. Frater
Manjet would probably agree, YOUNGSTER that he
is!
It
is not a matter of faith. Understand that you are
a God and approach Ritual in that fashion. See it
in your mind. FEEL it in your body and soul. As
Above, So Below. The Grounding Exercise I provided
in the Forums prior to them being hacked will
assist you in this process. If you do not have it,
let me know and I will re-post it.
I AM
|
Quote:
Tzimtzum
wrote:
Quote:
Originally
Posted by I AM It is not a matter of
faith. Understand that you are a God and
approach Ritual in that fashion. See it in your
mind. FEEL it in your body and soul. As Above,
So Below. The Grounding Exercise I provided in
the Forums prior to them being hacked will
assist you in this process. If you do not have
it, let me know and I will re-post it.
I
AM
| Well put.
In regard to magickal work, the moment you start
to doubt your inherit divinity, is the moment you
put yourself in peril.
|
Quote:
I
AM wrote:
Quote:
Originally
Posted by Tzimtzum The seal itself is
important, but not for it's absolute accuracy.
They could more accurately be simply considered
markers, the name and intent is more important.
| The same
Entity that corrected my SEAL taught me this as
well. It is true. However, one needs to ensure
their INTENT is focused. Just as concentration on
the Sigil itself will also call the Entity
(another caution).
Quote:
Originally
Posted by Tzimtzum Yes, the overall
accuracy of the information has imporoved
greatly over the last 500 years due to diligent
study and improved scholarship (much thanks to
A.E. Waite and M. Mathers).
| We owe a lot
to these work horses. My earlier comments about
Waite were not meant to be critical of his
contributions to Magick. The errors WERE
intentional. These two men, and others like them,
provided a library of information for Magickians
that came after. We are in their
debt.
Humbly, I AM
|
Quote:
Tzimtzum
wrote:
Quote:
Originally
Posted by I AM The same Entity that
corrected my SEAL taught me this as well. It is
true. However, one needs to ensure their INTENT
is focused. Just as concentration on the Sigil
itself will also call the Entity (another
caution).
We owe a lot to these
work horses. My earlier comments about Waite
were not meant to be critical of his
contributions to Magick. The errors WERE
intentional. These two men, and others like
them, provided a library of information for
Magickians that came after. We are in their
debt.
Humbly, I AM
| *blush* I had
that happen to me long ago, I was staring a little
too intently at Furfur's sigil (I was in a public
library at the time) and the room started turning
cold and all the hairs on my body stood up. I
immediately "cleaned" the room and scanned it
intently, but he hadn't stuck around.
Ahh,
seems that everyone has some criticism regarding
Waite (me too). Though, his scholarship is truly
top-notch, Holy Kabbalah alone would almost be
considered a life's work. It's an incerdible
treatise on the subject, one of the best ever
written... if perhaps a bit too ponderous.
|
Quote:
SaintGeorge
wrote:
Quote:
quote
of: I Am The Goetic Demons can heal and
do many other "GOOD" things and Angels can RUIN
your entire day, or someone else's for that
matter, by doing "BAD" things. In my experience,
the Christian concepts of Good and Evil do not
apply when talking about "Angelic" and
Quote: Demonic" forces. I am not even
certain that the human mind can even comprehend
their full nature. I just know that how we view
good and evil and how "Angels and Demons" view
good and evil are very different.
It is
my opinion, based on my experience, that Angelic
and Demonic forces are just different forces
with different methods of action. I do not view
the Entities of the Goetia as Demons (Not in the
Christian sense).
| Bravo IAM well
said, I must say it do concern me at times, the
fact that some times the symbology is credited
with to much factualness, rather than
understanding that they are meant as
representations only of the forces we use, while
accepting of course that they are imbuded with
tremendous effect by constant use over the ages.
So if Demons are what you want to see, demons is
what you'll get. As for the divinity within, in my
case the Godess of course, well that seems to
inexperienced me to be the first of the changes
one experiences in developing magickal practices,
and I am so pleased to hear it is not considered
at least in this forum, an ego trip of the first
order.
and thanks to the original poster,
this thread has turned into a great learning
topic.
|
Quote:
Ekron
wrote:
Just to reiterate the power in
sigils. By simply using prayer and meditation upon
the spirits sigil I've contacted and received help
from both Orobas and Tharsis recently.
|
Quote:
Tzimtzum
wrote:
Quote:
Originally
Posted by SaintGeorge The Goetic Demons
can heal and do many other "GOOD" things and
Angels can RUIN your entire day, or someone
else's for that matter, by doing "BAD" things.
In my experience, the Christian concepts of Good
and Evil do not apply when talking about
"Angelic" and
| That's quite
interesting. I've never had an angel of any sort
do any "bad" things to me, let alone ruin my day.
Though, I've had most goetia try to push the
limits of my circle, and they weren't exactly
trying to give me a "noogie" either. There are
some rather destructive and deadly angels under
the province of Tzaphkiel and Sammael, but most
mages don't know about them, much less have had
any dealings with them.
|
Quote:
I
AM wrote:
Quote:
Originally
Posted by Tzimtzum That's quite
interesting. I've never had an angel of any sort
do any "bad" things to me, let alone ruin my
day. Though, I've had most goetia try to push
the limits of my circle, and they weren't
exactly trying to give me a "noogie" either.
There are some rather destructive and deadly
angels under the province of Tzaphkiel and
Sammael, but most mages don't know about them,
much less have had any dealings with them.
| Actually she
was requoting my earlier post with those words.
And I will say again that Angels CAN RUIN your
entire day. Some of the Angelic forces have
awesome destructive power.
Humbly, I
AM
|
Quote:
Tzimtzum
wrote:
Quote:
Originally
Posted by I AM Actually she was
requoting my earlier post with those words. And
I will say again that Angels CAN RUIN your
entire day. Some of the Angelic forces have
awesome destructive power.
Humbly, I AM
| I agree. I was
simply saying though that most mages don't usually
encounter those types.
The likelihood of
getting harmed or harrassed is much much higher
with demons than it is with angels. Exponentially
so.
|
Quote:
Radiant
Star wrote:
Apologies up front as off
topic:
I AM says:
I would liken
myself more to a worn out spark plug wire.
Rays says: DON'T be so ridiculous!
Plenty of life in you yet judging by your posts
which suggest valuable experience and wisdom to
share.
Get a grip young man! says the
middle aged lady, Rays
|
Quote:
morphine
wrote:
Indeed a learning post and very
very interesting.
Few questions:
1)
The CM adepts generally recommend practising a lot
especially on the banishing side before any goetic
evocation. Till when a person shall
practise?..I know my question might sound stupid
because it can vary from individual to individual
but still. I feel more practise is recommended
for the following
aspects Banishing,interpretation of the
situation and messages given by the goetic entity
and ability to control the situation. 2)
Invoking the Godform-In order to request a demon
for a specific need,the magus has to bring the
divinity within. Won't the invocation of
Godform in itself shall allow the magus to command
the demon too? 3) Considering the adoration
towards the demon,won't it be enough banishing to
protect the magus?
Generally the factor of
fear and precaution are exercised as a part of any
goetic evocation. Won't the faith in the demon
leaning towards admiration and love account for a
successful magickal experience?
Thanks for
your replies
| |
|
|
08-16-2004, 01:39 PM |
#3 |
Member
Kinjo is Online:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Paris van Java
Posts: 429
|
Done.
__________________
. .
. . _____________________________ .
.
Library of Esoteric, Occult and Magickal
Documents for the Community.
"You see things and say,
"Why?" But I dream of things that never were and say
"Why not?"
|
|
|
08-17-2004, 10:57 AM |
#4 |
Member
Deckard is Offline:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 33 |
Thanks Kinjo. I stared this topic for my own
selfish reasons but I am glad that others might learn
from it. You deserve our gratitude for saving it and for
the other important work your doing (which most do not
know of).
I hope I have not misquoted anyone in
my edit or thrown their words out of context. If so PM
me and I will make the apt changes. |
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