kollision
06-20-2004, 09:44 PM
Hello
all,
I have been been pondering on this for some
time now. Where do you people believe that the spirits
from
Goetia, Necromicon,
and all the other pleathora of spirits as well as
Godforms end up in the end of time? In my opinion, I
believe that they will have to meet with the one divine
God in the end, that they will be judged according ly
and fairly, unlike how other people think that "devils
and demons" will be sent to the lake of fire. I believe
even the bad spirits that fell have a chance to redeem
themselves. Afterall, they hae a will of their own (in
my humble opinion). Take care!
Levavi
Oculos
06-20-2004, 11:35 PM
i believe the
doctrine that these spirits "fell from grace" is just a
relic left over from the catholic church. if you believe
in the supreme diety as the force of the universe then
they really aren't evil, because we are all one.
a
dogma-free explanation--the big bang theory in science
(i'm not too sharp on this so i could be off, please
correct me if i'm wrong) says that all matter in the
universe, every single piece of the existence of
everything, all pulled together into one huge
entity/force/thing/whatever you wanna call it (i see
this as what God truely is). and then due to it's
immeasurable gravity, it sucked in on itself condensing
smaller and smaller until it was infinately tiny. then,
at the moment it got to it's smallest, the unbelievable
energy contained inside exploded out and creted the
known uinverse. so in theory, everything in the universe
came from one thing and, everything is a part of
everything else.
i think this goes along completely
with the teachings of magick as "every man and every
woman is a star" can be taken as almost literally. in
fact, for every theory on the origin of our universe and
our earth and everything in it, there is an parablistic
teaching in some creation story. the bible is a good
place to look.
i believe that the end of time will
be all things pulling back together again as they once
did and all becoming one, and then possibly it all
starts over again. so to answer your question as to what
will happen, they will be absorbed into the divine as
will everything else, as they have always been a part of
the divine. ugly or evil as humanity deems them, they're
still representative as a part of the naturally existing
universe.
Idiot
06-21-2004, 01:33 AM
I
wasn't aware that these beings experience time as we do,
or that there will be an end to everything. Keep in mind
that the big bang theory is only an explanation as to
the formation of the physical universe. What these
beings are, where they are and WHEN they are is probably
beyond the grasp of our material minds. What will/has/is
happening to them is more than likely impossible for us
to even toss a guess at.
kollision
06-21-2004,
04:24 AM
Both of you give good statements. I
really got tuned in when I read Levavi Oculos stating
that everything returns to the divine. As the bible
states, everything returns to God. This makes a lot of
sense as well as your explanation of the big bang.
However I do not think that the divines power was so
immense that the divine couldn't handle it, but still I
like your theory. And the evil and ugly as part of the
naturally universe is just like the Yin/Yang
symbolism.
erisdoe
06-22-2004, 04:14
PM
To me, the
goetia
are not necessarily "evil". Conversely, how "good" are
"angels"?
It is likely that everything will become
one thing,(which I supsect has already occured), as I
believe Levavi stated.
kollision
06-25-2004,
11:30 AM
Levavi stated that it will happen, not
that it did already. If it did already, wouldnt it get
rid of the Qabala?
Panu Nahka
06-28-2004,
10:54 AM
In my cosmological view, all
spirit-beings are shards of pure energy, given form and
life by our belief in them. They exist in the shadow of
the matter; in the reflection of the mirror; in short,
they don't exist in the same way as we do. They are
living hopes, fears and dreams, having no touchable
substance. And when no-one believes in them anymore,
they are thrust in to slumber or death, forever
separated from this reality.
And what happens
when reality ends, I know
not.
Tzimtzum
06-28-2004, 11:56 AM
Get
rid of Qabala? Qabala (or Kabbalah) is a science for
understanding; the divine, the nature of the soul, and
our relationship with the universe. It's a man-made
system for understanding, so yes, when mankind goes
away, so does the Qabala.
However, the things the
Qabala works to reveal (most of them) will not vanish
when mankind or the physical universe ceases to exist in
this incarnation. The reality is, the divine has
destroyed the universe and rebuilt it countless times
before. As said in the Talmud, "For He has created and
destroyed many 'realities', before he made this one".
So, "God" of course, is not affected. He simply creates
it, looks at it, then starts over again. In "reality"
this is instantaneous in relation to the divine, the
universe being made then unmade countless times. Since
we exist within the stream of time (almost exclusively),
and live within the rules established by the higher
orders, we experience this existence in a mostly "one
way" progression. There are some exceptions, but
generally that the way it works. What we view as an
"eternity", is not even a moment in the eyes of "God",
for that reason.
As for angels,
goetia, and other spirits... they
experience time, but not in the same manner we do.
Mostly because off the nature of the "worlds". In the
Sefer Yetzirah it explains that there are 4 "worlds"
which comprise the universe as a whole. How time runs in
each of those worlds is different, and I do have some
theories regarding that, but they'd take some time to
type out here. That said, temporal and spatial laws are
different in each. Which means that time and space have
different values for different types of beings and
entities.
kollision
06-29-2004, 02:19
AM
Thanks Tzimtzum, that makes a lot of sense. I
wouldn't mind reading your theories if you happen to
write them. So in your opinion, there is never an
Ultimate end where all goes to god and becomes one,
forever and ever? Or is the number of recreations
limited to come to an end?
Thanks
Quidgyboo
06-29-2004, 09:22 AM
I
do not believe in an 'end of time' so I can not really
provide you with an answer that would satisfy you.
Perhaps I should not have even replied, but meh; I
wanted to let you know that some people do not believe
time will or can end.
Tzimtzum
06-29-2004,
09:30 AM
No, I don't believe in an ultimate end,
because we're already in it.
_files/icon_smile.gif)
We're already one with the divine, it's just
that many choose to not "exercise" that or even simply
accept it, the rest aren't even aware of it and are
waiting for some "rapture" or world-wide
reserrection.
I simply choose not to sit on my
hands and wait for such a thing (I don't believe in it
anyway), I'm having my initimacy with "God"
now.
But no, I don't believe the cycles ever
end.
Mmothra
06-29-2004, 10:29 AM
In
the end, the
Goetia will,
like all good Hebrews past and present, move to a condo
in Miami Beach, Florida.
I am hoping they live in
the same complex as my Aunt and Uncle. It would serve
them right.
Tzimtzum
06-29-2004, 06:49
PM
In the end, the
Goetia will, like all good
Hebrews past and present, move to a condo in Miami
Beach, Florida.
I am hoping they live in the same
complex as my Aunt and Uncle. It would serve them
right.
Sounds like an episode of Angel.
![Laughing]()
kollision
06-29-2004, 10:09
PM
Whoa Tzimtum thats deep. I like your views. I
guess what I meant to say, do you believe that at one
time, will everyone ever envelop themselves to the
divine?
Tzimtzum
06-29-2004, 11:07
PM
Whoa Tzimtum thats deep. I like your views. I
guess what I meant to say, do you believe that at one
time, will everyone ever envelop themselves to the
divine?
Let me see if I can explain what I
believe.
There are times, when we aren't here,
when we're between human incarnations. In those times we
"sleep", but are aware to an extent. I remember some
parts of it. It exists outside of the flow of time as we
know it, and it's where we communicate with all others
there on certain levels. It's also where we exist with
the divine on a closer level. It's where we absorb of
lives' experiences and can view them impartially and
without fear.
In that state, outside of the flow
of time and barriers of this world, all souls exist at
the same "time". It is an eternity, and all eternities.
Where we can see ourselves living in these short
individual moments that we call "lifetimes" and witness
our faults, successes, joys, and fears... without the
baggage and losses. See, while we live here, in this
place where we can fear, love, hate, and know loss, we
become who we are.
I hope that made sense.
_files/icon_smile.gif)
kollision
06-30-2004, 12:51
PM
Ahh I see, thanks for the great explanations
and for your input. Madea me realise that there are
other options then the "End of the World" Thanks a
lot
Nicholas777
07-01-2004, 12:37 PM
In
the end, the
Goetia will,
like all good Hebrews past and present, move to a condo
in Miami Beach, Florida.
.
And then they will sip
decafinated tea and complain that they're followers
never call them.
Nicholas