Mmothra

kollision
06-20-2004, 09:44 PM
Hello all,

I have been been pondering on this for some time now. Where do you people believe that the spirits from Goetia, Necromicon, and all the other pleathora of spirits as well as Godforms end up in the end of time? In my opinion, I believe that they will have to meet with the one divine God in the end, that they will be judged according ly and fairly, unlike how other people think that "devils and demons" will be sent to the lake of fire. I believe even the bad spirits that fell have a chance to redeem themselves. Afterall, they hae a will of their own (in my humble opinion). Take care!
Levavi Oculos
06-20-2004, 11:35 PM

i believe the doctrine that these spirits "fell from grace" is just a relic left over from the catholic church. if you believe in the supreme diety as the force of the universe then they really aren't evil, because we are all one.
a dogma-free explanation--the big bang theory in science (i'm not too sharp on this so i could be off, please correct me if i'm wrong) says that all matter in the universe, every single piece of the existence of everything, all pulled together into one huge entity/force/thing/whatever you wanna call it (i see this as what God truely is). and then due to it's immeasurable gravity, it sucked in on itself condensing smaller and smaller until it was infinately tiny. then, at the moment it got to it's smallest, the unbelievable energy contained inside exploded out and creted the known uinverse. so in theory, everything in the universe came from one thing and, everything is a part of everything else.
i think this goes along completely with the teachings of magick as "every man and every woman is a star" can be taken as almost literally. in fact, for every theory on the origin of our universe and our earth and everything in it, there is an parablistic teaching in some creation story. the bible is a good place to look.
i believe that the end of time will be all things pulling back together again as they once did and all becoming one, and then possibly it all starts over again. so to answer your question as to what will happen, they will be absorbed into the divine as will everything else, as they have always been a part of the divine. ugly or evil as humanity deems them, they're still representative as a part of the naturally existing universe.

Idiot
06-21-2004, 01:33 AM

I wasn't aware that these beings experience time as we do, or that there will be an end to everything. Keep in mind that the big bang theory is only an explanation as to the formation of the physical universe. What these beings are, where they are and WHEN they are is probably beyond the grasp of our material minds. What will/has/is happening to them is more than likely impossible for us to even toss a guess at.

kollision
06-21-2004, 04:24 AM

Both of you give good statements. I really got tuned in when I read Levavi Oculos stating that everything returns to the divine. As the bible states, everything returns to God. This makes a lot of sense as well as your explanation of the big bang. However I do not think that the divines power was so immense that the divine couldn't handle it, but still I like your theory. And the evil and ugly as part of the naturally universe is just like the Yin/Yang symbolism.

erisdoe
06-22-2004, 04:14 PM

To me, the goetia are not necessarily "evil". Conversely, how "good" are "angels"?
It is likely that everything will become one thing,(which I supsect has already occured), as I believe Levavi stated.

kollision
06-25-2004, 11:30 AM

Levavi stated that it will happen, not that it did already. If it did already, wouldnt it get rid of the Qabala?

Panu Nahka
06-28-2004, 10:54 AM

In my cosmological view, all spirit-beings are shards of pure energy, given form and life by our belief in them. They exist in the shadow of the matter; in the reflection of the mirror; in short, they don't exist in the same way as we do. They are living hopes, fears and dreams, having no touchable substance. And when no-one believes in them anymore, they are thrust in to slumber or death, forever separated from this reality.

And what happens when reality ends, I know not.

Tzimtzum
06-28-2004, 11:56 AM

Get rid of Qabala? Qabala (or Kabbalah) is a science for understanding; the divine, the nature of the soul, and our relationship with the universe. It's a man-made system for understanding, so yes, when mankind goes away, so does the Qabala.

However, the things the Qabala works to reveal (most of them) will not vanish when mankind or the physical universe ceases to exist in this incarnation. The reality is, the divine has destroyed the universe and rebuilt it countless times before. As said in the Talmud, "For He has created and destroyed many 'realities', before he made this one". So, "God" of course, is not affected. He simply creates it, looks at it, then starts over again. In "reality" this is instantaneous in relation to the divine, the universe being made then unmade countless times. Since we exist within the stream of time (almost exclusively), and live within the rules established by the higher orders, we experience this existence in a mostly "one way" progression. There are some exceptions, but generally that the way it works. What we view as an "eternity", is not even a moment in the eyes of "God", for that reason.

As for angels, goetia, and other spirits... they experience time, but not in the same manner we do. Mostly because off the nature of the "worlds". In the Sefer Yetzirah it explains that there are 4 "worlds" which comprise the universe as a whole. How time runs in each of those worlds is different, and I do have some theories regarding that, but they'd take some time to type out here. That said, temporal and spatial laws are different in each. Which means that time and space have different values for different types of beings and entities.

kollision
06-29-2004, 02:19 AM

Thanks Tzimtzum, that makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't mind reading your theories if you happen to write them. So in your opinion, there is never an Ultimate end where all goes to god and becomes one, forever and ever? Or is the number of recreations limited to come to an end? Thanks

Quidgyboo
06-29-2004, 09:22 AM

I do not believe in an 'end of time' so I can not really provide you with an answer that would satisfy you. Perhaps I should not have even replied, but meh; I wanted to let you know that some people do not believe time will or can end.

Tzimtzum
06-29-2004, 09:30 AM

No, I don't believe in an ultimate end, because we're already in it. We're already one with the divine, it's just that many choose to not "exercise" that or even simply accept it, the rest aren't even aware of it and are waiting for some "rapture" or world-wide reserrection.

I simply choose not to sit on my hands and wait for such a thing (I don't believe in it anyway), I'm having my initimacy with "God" now.

But no, I don't believe the cycles ever end.

Mmothra
06-29-2004, 10:29 AM

In the end, the Goetia will, like all good Hebrews past and present, move to a condo in Miami Beach, Florida.

I am hoping they live in the same complex as my Aunt and Uncle. It would serve them right.

Tzimtzum
06-29-2004, 06:49 PM

In the end, the Goetia will, like all good Hebrews past and present, move to a condo in Miami Beach, Florida.

I am hoping they live in the same complex as my Aunt and Uncle. It would serve them right.
Sounds like an episode of Angel.

kollision
06-29-2004, 10:09 PM

Whoa Tzimtum thats deep. I like your views. I guess what I meant to say, do you believe that at one time, will everyone ever envelop themselves to the divine?

Tzimtzum
06-29-2004, 11:07 PM

Whoa Tzimtum thats deep. I like your views. I guess what I meant to say, do you believe that at one time, will everyone ever envelop themselves to the divine?
Let me see if I can explain what I believe.

There are times, when we aren't here, when we're between human incarnations. In those times we "sleep", but are aware to an extent. I remember some parts of it. It exists outside of the flow of time as we know it, and it's where we communicate with all others there on certain levels. It's also where we exist with the divine on a closer level. It's where we absorb of lives' experiences and can view them impartially and without fear.

In that state, outside of the flow of time and barriers of this world, all souls exist at the same "time". It is an eternity, and all eternities. Where we can see ourselves living in these short individual moments that we call "lifetimes" and witness our faults, successes, joys, and fears... without the baggage and losses. See, while we live here, in this place where we can fear, love, hate, and know loss, we become who we are.

I hope that made sense.

kollision
06-30-2004, 12:51 PM

Ahh I see, thanks for the great explanations and for your input. Madea me realise that there are other options then the "End of the World" Thanks a lot

Nicholas777
07-01-2004, 12:37 PM

In the end, the Goetia will, like all good Hebrews past and present, move to a condo in Miami Beach, Florida.
.
And then they will sip decafinated tea and complain that they're followers never call them.

Nicholas

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