In the book "Modern Magick" I read of Astaroth being Astarte, or Isis..True? I haven't worked with any of the goetics, and don't plan to do so soon, but this was bugging me, lol...And if so, then can Bael/Baal be called as..Osiris? Since Re, and Horus are in the goetia, I wouldn't be suprised if Astaroth/Astarte, and Bael/baal can be called as Isis, and Osiris...Hell, it'll help my little egyptian pantheon shrine in the future, king, parents, and son. Any info? Thank you in advance for any information.

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux

This post has been edited by SangueDiNapoli: Mar 8 2006, 05:59 PM

Greetings!
I think that I shall preface this with the ultimate disclaimer, IMHO...
There is a growing movement in certain occult circles to say that all the spirits/demons of the Goetia are merely representations of older gods. There is evidence (and speculation) that some of the Goetia correspond to ancient Sumerian and Egyptian gods. I advise caution here. Check the bibliographies and the sources of your information. The Goetic Amon does not equate with Ra/Re! Perhaps the netjer Amun but not Ra. It has been suggested that Flauros/Hauros is another name for Horus. I, myself, have problems with that. Heru the Elder or Heru the Younger? Hmmmm.....maybe not at all! There was a Canaanite god by the name of Baal, Osiris has absolutely nothing to do with this! The Goetic Astaroth may be, in deed, Astarte or Ashtoreth but with a gender change and a huge difference in magical current (alright you Magicians...invoke Astaroth then Astarte and see if you see the difference!) Isis has a similar role in Egypt but is not the same as Ishtar, Astarte, etc. of Babylonian/Sumerian fame.
In this super computerized age of (mis)information and smaller global community we are falling into the trap of Homogenization (and I'm not talking about gay rights!)- the blurring/blending of the lines. In our infinite need to have everything neatly packaged we have decided that Monotheism applies to all the older polytheistic pantheons. As much as the Christian/Muslims would have us believe, All Gods and Goddesses are NOT one. The Christians/Muslims would group old gods together and call them demons to frighten the followers of these religons into turning to their own god. (Yahweh, btw, was one of a number of gods worshipped in the area of the Black Sea/Dead Sea....the movement overthrowing the worship of the feminine principle and another agricultural diety in lieu of their war god, Yahweh/Jehovah) I cite the Dead Sea Scrolls as the documents. Why this rant?
Believe what you want. But PLEASE check your source material and don't blindly believe what is written on this flaming internet! Make informed choices. Even disregard the ranting of this old man...as long as you really research your material. My ravings come from the Egyptian 'shaman' that I'm striving to be and reacting very badly to the incredible crap I keep stepping in. Granted, a new pair of glasses and bothering to look beforehand will cut down on my crappy shoe stains. *sigh* The Netjers are awake and it is an eye opener! Let me close with this mollified stance: I am glad you have belief in something, even if it is historically altered by time and perspective. As long as you continue to seek your higher self and purpose in this wonderful multiverse you will know saeity. Be happy and be well! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

Know that I always appreciate the rants. lol. If I were to believe what the book said I wouldn't of had asked (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). Like I said, I'm not planning on dealing with the goetics yet, hell I got the "heebie geebies" going through an elemental evocation lol, but isn't it better to know if the same entity are under different names than to worship them seperately? Again, thanks for the info (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif).

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux

P.S: I thought that amun, and re came together to become amun-re? Meh, I'm not too familiar with the egyptian deities, so excuse me :-D

This post has been edited by SangueDiNapoli: Mar 8 2006, 07:00 PM

I suspect that this kind of paralleling comes from a general trend that I have noticed has become increasingly popular over the last decade.

I like bym's word for it - homogenization.
The general gist of it goes something like this:

x and y are two different ways for referencing the same thing: z

So x and y are not meaningfully different compared to each other.
Any distinctions that differentiate x and y compared to each other are insignificant.

xand y are the same.

**********

For example:

Jehovah and Allah are two different ways for referencing the same thing: God.

So Jehovah and Allah are not meaningfully different compared to each other.
Any distinctions that differentiate Jehovah and Allah compared to each other are insignificant.

Jehovah and Allah are the same.

(Where by Jehovah I specifically mean the God of the Bible's New Testament )

***********

I have also seen some people expand this kind of "reasoning" and thus apply it to all Gods from every religion - such that the claim is that all Gods are just really just the same God viewed from different perspectives.

I suspect that what is happening here with the Goetic entities in relation to others.

And I am very, very wary of this - because it really seems to encourage people to blind their eyes from recognizing and comprehending crucial differences that both distinguish the uniqueness of identity, and that are the basis for important variations of behaviour, merely because whatever is being compared together have some similarities.

Most often, the tendancy is for those who do this to say "Well, there are much more similarities than differences!" Which might indeed be accurate - however - a larger amount of similarities than differences do not negate uniqueness of identity distinguished by differences.

Just because it "looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck" does not mean that it necessarily is a duck - because it could be a decoy whose other differences from a real duck are crucial.

**********

One of the broadest - and most infamous and notorious - applications of this homogenization happens by some people who run around proclaiming "We are all one!", who by that mean that we are not meaningfully different from each other - that any distinctions that differentiate us compared to each other are insignificant - and/or that we are the same.

This post has been edited by Praxis: Mar 8 2006, 09:20 PM

Thanks for the reply, Praxis. I guess besides reaserch, and connecting the dots the best way would be to just ask them themselves (Hopefuly they don't get offended easily).

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux

"As much as the Christian/Muslims would have us believe, All Gods and Goddesses are NOT one"--

I actually enjoy your opinion, but in regards to the above quote I think that all the possible knowon and unknown godforms are one god. In my opinion,however, that doesn't mean a love goddess(form) from the roman pantheon is the exact same as the love goddess(form) of the egyptians. They may have similar roles but the godforms are different set apart by the conditions and mindset from the culture they arose from and thus this will naturaly be part of the godforms personality. IMHO

Aka Venus is not the exact same as Aphrodite, Amun and AmenRa and Re are all different forms with a different personality. So naturaly this will reflect in the grimoir pantheons(if you will), Amon is not the same as Amun..

But then again I am sure you have tons more practice under your belt than I do when it comes to godforming and evocations..

This post has been edited by Enigmius: Mar 10 2006, 02:56 PM

I have absolutely NO idea of how much experience you have in the assumption of godforms, etc. I was exercising my right to an opinion only....evidently my ballooned up ego made it appear that I knew what experiences you have! LOL! We are in disagreement, a fortunate occurance on debate Forums. The whole one god, multiple aspects is a convenience (again, IMHO)...not to say that there are no aspects...there is. My stance comes from one of a pan-polytheistic viewpoint. Most shamans tend to anthropomorphise their universe and I've fallen into that thoughtstream. Believing in the bigbang theory would normally suggest a monadic point but I'm a heretic.




I agree with this statement. My point as said above...
In a prior post it was suggested that various Goetics were, in actuality, different god(forms) from Egyptian pantheons. I refuted some of that. In the case of Astaroth/Astarte/Ashtoreth there is very strong evidence that this may be true, though having touched two of those three currents I felt that this was not true (ah...IMHO...). The only thing left is a very subjective observation. And, for others who use the Goetia, it is a different thing again! 'Tis, T'ain't.

This post has been edited by bym: Mar 10 2006, 11:16 PM

Yeah, I'm just going to take my catholic ancestors stand and call them as evil spiteful demons from hell..That should make everyone happy. lol.

.::Sempre bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux

Bael would be Ba'al, NOT Osirus. From my experienes (screw this book learning crap!) I would say that the Daemons are one aspect of the Deity. FOr example you have the Goddess Astarte, she has many many aspets, and one of them is Astaroth. An example of this can be seen with the goddess Athena, there is the Athena of war, Athena of the marketplace etc. etc. Each of these aspects of Athena have different names. Athena _____. So I would say that the Daemons are like that.

When the new culture takes over the old culture, the old culture's Deities are now called Demons. I would also say that Flauros and Set don't get along! I found this out the hard way one day during an evocation of Flauros with a Set alter in the background!

I would say, call them up and ask them. They will tell you, as much as your understanding will allow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I would say Horus the elder, but I don't know enough about Horus really so I could be wrong on that.

Athena

Hey there! I've been digging around in some dusty places after this thread was originally posted. Gods! What a tangled mess! Aspects of this and that...it's hard to keep straight!
Athena, you are correct in your stance on Astarte/Ashtoreth/Astaroth....my questions arise from how in the hell does a goddess of L'amour become a male demon of lust? Quite a genderbender, LOL! I've worked with Astaroth and was influenced by the older MSS about his nature, et al. He never came across as a demon of Lust either! Whereas when dealing with the Astarte current there was no denying it!
Another interesting twist is that of Set. Originally he was a God of the Desert and Desert Storms. He was not evil. His contact with Heru (the Elder) was one of competition, not one of adversaries. It was rumored that they were lovers. With the invasion of the Hyksos, Set was adopted and eventually vilified because of political reasons...More ammunition for Mankind, the GodMakers! The pharoahs were said to have "the strength of Set"...even after the Vilification! He is a very elemental God/Netjer! I'm not certain how Flauros came to represent Horus. It was Heru (the Younger) that became the antagonist of Set when he was supposed to have killed Osiris and scattered his body parts over the Land. This may be nothing more than allegory. Osiris was originally a Vegetative/Agricultural God/Netjer denoting the Nile river basin/flood plain. Perhaps the story of Set killing Osiris is merely the tale of a huge desert storm ruining the Nile basin at one time. Osiris/Ausar adopted the title of God of the Underworld after this occurence, adopting the role from Anubis/Anpu...whose worship predates that of Ausar!
I could yammer like this for hours...suffice it to say that each aspect of a diety may have different names, gender and political alignment...depending on the vagueries of man, the GodMaker! IMHO, of course! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

I know I know. Same thing with the Orishas. There's the flirtatious Oshun, then there's the witch Oshun who eats what vultures bring her..I'm just going to work with them (in the future) as demons. Maybe after working with them for a while I'll ask, so maybe they wont get offended ;-)..Started reading runyons evocation book out of boredom, and his even suggested 'amon-ra' and 'horus' were in the goetia, so I'm just going to burn my books (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). lol.

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux

Winter is almost over...save them for next winter! LOL!
Not all that we read has merit, especially in the 'occult' field! We are constantly changing our ideologies due to new discoveries and research. Runyon may not have the same source material that I have...Just try to make sure of your sources, at least then you can debate/discuss your subject from an informed point of view! How long ago did they think the world was flat...or better, made within crystal spheres? In some occult circles that model is still taught! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh that is VERYinteresting Bym (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Where can I look to find the info about Set before the whole he is evil mythos? Also, where would I look to find the info about them being lovers? <g>
I work with both Set and Flauros a lot, so would love any info you can give (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Athena

Athena,
Here are a few references to what I was saying...they are not representative of all that I have on file.
I will supply more when I can get around to it. Happy reading! I used to get very worried when Set kept showing up in readings etc. until I had the Grace to do some further research and discover that politics can have a great deal to do with our perceptions! LOL! Go figure... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutekh

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/set.htm

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/seth.htm

Just a few things...

The Egyptians equated their own Osiris with Baal. The archeotype is very simmilar, and CM's are known for comparing archeotypes between systems of magick for further understanding of new pantheons.

Astaroth and Astarte are the same Goddess in different times within the same culture. The people of Cannan worshiped one, while the people within Cannan (pheonecia) worshipped the other. Its good history to understand one is an evolution of the other. The Egyptians also equated their own Isis to her when the Cannanites and Egyptians intermingled.

It is a fact seen in anhropology that the God of one culture will influence and infiltrate the culture of another nation or time period. This is widely understood, so it is not "mis/information" to think that many of the entities in the Goetia are in fact new versions or strains of old Gods. Its actually more intelligent to consider this possibility than to simply believe king Solomon bound these spirits in a brass vessel thousands of years ago, and that this fictitouse story is the true origin of the Goetic Spirits.

Skinwalker

It is actually quite easy to see how one God becomes another cultures daemon. Look at Baal for instance. He was worshiped in many Hebrew groups. It was this worship that forced the hebrew priesthood to demonise him. There are many references to "the one who rides the clouds" in the bible. This is because Baal was the rider of the clouds and the hebrew priesthood had to state that their own God was the "true" rider of the clouds.

There is no need to believe that Baal and Bael are exactly the same. But if you look him up and ask him you will find that he does infact consider himself one and the same.

Like Athena said, the Goetic spirits may be one aspect of these older Gods that has evolved and been included in the Goetia.

I do understand your point about people mixing gods and thinking they are one and the same. You can probably thank modern wicca and lewellyn publications for that.

Skinwalker

Ba'al was a title given, such as 'boss' or 'chief' or 'lord'. Check out this article in Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal



Now, I suggest that this will be rather eye-opening to all you demonologists/karcist magicians! Yahweh being, in actuality Bael! LOL! But....Why not?......?



I understand how anthropology works and how the political situations that arise in governments (especially theocratic ones) can influence the way the populace view various entities. You do not subscribe to the Solomonic stance of the Brazen Vessel. I do, at least, that was the way I grew up to look at it. My experiences with the Goetia are formed from actual working of the system as it was laid out in the manuscripts. You may have a different stance and are able to utilize any number of different approaches. When dealing with Goetic Astaroth I found that the entity was male (though gender is something that alot of the entities change like clothes....the incubus/succubus example) (also, refer to above aricle in Wikipedia, Ashtart being a female form of various goddesses) and had a different magical current than that of Astarte/Ashtoreth(of Phoenecia fame). Yes, they may have originated from an identical source but have, through the eyes and hearts of many people, been altered to fall within several different entities/'minds'. Rather schizophrenic... My initial point was to say that just because someone decides, due to political persuasion, that one goddess is similar to another goddess that it shall be one and the same in perpetuity is off base. It's a Newage homogenization and a convenience for historians.
BUT...and do please pay attention to this BUT, believe as you see fit. Worship who you will. Evoke/invoke to your hearts content. My experiences with these entities are horribly subjective as are yours. I can live with that. I'm sure with the proper amount of digging you can paint the Morrigan in gay ribbons and call her 'Granny'. I do know that there are distinct magical currents that are generated by the various aspects of the entities bandied about here. We, as the Godmakers, are prime examples of this. Father Christmas is just different enough from Santa Claus to lift an eyebrow. Have you hollowed out your Hallows Eve turnip? Does Eostra equate with the Magdalene? I'm sure given a thousand years they will and the name Bush will be whispered as a Satan of Democracy. I'm a Pantheist, it's all Go(o)d to me!

This post has been edited by bym: Apr 7 2006, 08:55 AM