This will be much shorter then it should be, but just wanted to point out a few things.
Dee and Kelly did NOT use a circle at any point during the Enochian workings. That painting of them doing the whole necromancy thing in the circle was an artists idea of what they did, not what they did as far as I know.
Dee and Kelly did NOT use a triangle.
They did NOT use the LBRP or any other banishing rituals.

What they did do a heapload of prayers to the divine, setup the crystal ball on the table, and called the spirits. They of course also had their friendly Enochian and Kabbalistic enttieis they had gotten in good with around them during these sessions to help out a bit. But that's it. They even sat down to do this! It doesn't mention what they wore for ritual garments, so it could have been regular clothing, or white robes, not sure on that one.

So how did they work Enochian, well they called the EEs. Oh what a novel concept, calling some spirits to help out in magics, never had a tradition do that before. Why it stopped being a major part of modern magic I have no idea. Sure spirits are called, but usually just to stand there in one of the quarters, or for the odd spell. Dee and Kelly (and most other magicians of old) actually got to know the spirits, become friends, get teachings etc. They didn't just open up some book, look up the table of correspondances, place a few things out, then call some names and charge something. No, they gained in depth teachings and had a working relationship with these spirits.

When a lady needed healing, what did they do? They didn't go to their handy Llewellyn book, they called up these spirits that they had gotten to know over the years and asked for methods and help to perform the operation. Well they were given a detailed and complex method of creating a healing talisman for her.

Also if you look at the Enochian MS (I seriously don't see why anyone would bother working a system of magic without reading the original documentation!), you will note that there are talismans and tables specifically for practical means. You might also note that there are seals for several spirits that help with some very practical, and in a couple of cases diabolical magics!

It does make me wonder (back to that rant) why people would say they work Enochian, without having read a SINGLE actual Enochian source? No the GD does NOT count <sigh>. Or even worse, skryed up and talked with a *single* Enochian entity? Would someone dare say they worked Voudo without ever having called Legba? I somehow doubt it! Would someone say they were a Golden Dawn magician without ever having read the cipher documents? Oh wait nm that one LOL. Would someone say they are a physical alchamist without ever having tinctured a plant? How about a necromancer without ever having talked with the dead? Well I somehow doubt it. So why do people call themselves Enochian magicians without ever having talked with an EE? And NO, calling the quarters and vibrating their names does NOT count as having called them and talked with them!

Get out your damn crystal ball and get to work! Are you a magician? Well I assume so. Magicians do magic. Sort of like a lawyer has actually read millions of previous court cases and gone to court hundreds of times, so why a magician thinks they could get away with say going online and reading a few webpages on law then going into the courtroom is beyond me! Well that is what the analogy would be when folks just read one wantered down book on a system then say they practice it. Lets see you could call me up for teaching and either have me teach (hehe this is deja vu for one of my students) and just make me stand there in the East to represent teaching. Which do you think would be more productive as far as learning goes?

So anyways, Enochian is FULL of how to do magic, it is just that it does not look like the cookbook magic we are used to. It is not setup in nice tables of correspondances (save for a few in my book) or step by step instructions (OK I even covered that on my site in many cases), or a system shallow enough that one could think they know it in 350 pages.....

Athena

Athena may I just say that whoever said the picture you are refering to is of Kelly and Dee within the circle summoning a deceased spirit is wrong.....it is of Kelly and Paul Waring performing necromancy. First mention of this story is in Weaver's 'Funereal Monuments', 1651 and the illustration I think you are refering to is from Sibley's 'Illustration of Occult Sciences', 1790.

This just shows, as you so rightly point out of the misconception Dee has encountered over the years.

Well it doesn't suprise me that Kelly and Dee used little to nothing of the tools/methods which are concidered standard means. I've been commnicating and conversing with various angelic and daemonic beings without all the rituals and tools that I started hearing about since a year or 2. I never understood the added value of magical circles and such other then the symbolism and it's effect on the psyche of the individual. The rest is just for the show.

I've learned a lot from astral projecting and never even got into magic till a year or two ago. It was quite...odd to see how people within the occult did it. A 12 horned daemon in my room or Arch angel Raphael they come by just calling their names and so do many other entities. You can have casual conversations and such, but when you call them in full name and function then you'd better have a reason prepared to call upon them. And that is what "magicians" do with their rituals and scrying or whatever...they call upon the entities while in their function. Hey I've been doing all that without "magic" nor do I study Enochian and don't plan on doing it either.

Rituals and such do aid in focusing your mind on what you desire, but I still feel it is mostly show then having any added value. And I've been dealing with many types of energies for many years and only the past 2 years I've been experimenting with the occult way with rituals and such.

This post has been edited by Sabazel: Mar 7 2006, 06:15 AM

Hey thanks for the info (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Nearly about everywhere on the net where that picture is shown it is called Dee and Kelly performing necromancy. Evan in most books it is reffered to as this. I will have to check out your sources...

Athena

Here is a link:

http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/sibly4.htm

"Sibly's engraving of Edward Kelley (or Kelly) raising a dead person in a graveyard has been reproduced frequently, including A. E. Waite's Book of Ceremonial Magic who used it as his frontispiece. Kelley's companion, sometimes erroneously identified as John Dee, is presumably Paul Waring. It should be noted that his accounts of Dee and Kelley are erroneous in many points. (See Weaver's Funeral Monuments, 1631, p. 45-6, upon which Sibly's account is based.)"

This post has been edited by Ekron: Mar 28 2006, 12:50 PM

Get out your damn crystal ball and get to work! Are you a magician? Well I assume so. Magicians do magic. Sort of like a lawyer has actually read millions of previous court cases and gone to court hundreds of times, so why a magician thinks they could get away with say going online and reading a few webpages on law then going into the courtroom is beyond me! Well that is what the analogy would be when folks just read one wantered down book on a system then say they practice it. Lets see you could call me up for teaching and either have me teach (hehe this is deja vu for one of my students) and just make me stand there in the East to represent teaching. Which do you think would be more productive as far as learning goes?

Athena
[/quote]

Actually my last Enochian working was a bit terrorfying. I started because I had an isue to tackle that the dispositors angels on the eastern subquarter would normally handle. So I decided to work via prayers. I stated with the western tablet, then the eastern tablet, northern tablet. I did each tablet in successive days.

I would call the from the black cross Ehnb and then the next name that correpsonds to the tablet I was working with that day. Then I would call the watchtower then the king in his mercy aspect( as mercy is the nature of prayer work) then to the 6 seniors, the superior of the dispositors(the first dispoitor name with the additional letter from the black cross) and the following 4 dispositor angels at which I prayed to them and offered them incense and candle flame.

The fist day with the first tablet I could get the feeling of presence. the second day I would see them in my minds eye. But the third day shocked me as I actually saw a being in front of me(well a halo of a being) and there were white misty clouds darting about the circle. I was as if I was seeing them physically and it frightened me a bit. So I took the following day off. I plan on resuming the prayers for the last tablet in a few days.

The enochina beings are real and I can see why the prophets in the old testiment speak of terror and fear when they speak about the images of angels. They are SO powerful it CAN be rather disturbing. Though not always. Sorry if this is a super long post.

[quote name='Enigmius' date='Apr 7 2006, 11:44 AM' post='13884']
Get out your damn crystal ball and get to work! Are you a magician? Well I assume so. Magicians do magic. Sort of like a lawyer has actually read millions of previous court cases and gone to court hundreds of times, so why a magician thinks they could get away with say going online and reading a few webpages on law then going into the courtroom is beyond me! Well that is what the analogy would be when folks just read one wantered down book on a system then say they practice it. Lets see you could call me up for teaching and either have me teach (hehe this is deja vu for one of my students) and just make me stand there in the East to represent teaching. Which do you think would be more productive as far as learning goes?

Athena
[/quote]

Actually my last Enochian working was a bit terrorfying. I started because I had an isue to tackle that the dispositors angels on the eastern subquarter would normally handle. So I decided to work via prayers. I stated with the western tablet, then the eastern tablet, northern tablet. I did each tablet in successive days.

I would call the from the black cross Ehnb and then the next name that correpsonds to the tablet I was working with that day. Then I would call the watchtower then the king in his mercy aspect( as mercy is the nature of prayer work) then to the 6 seniors, the superior of the dispositors(the first dispoitor name with the additional letter from the black cross) and the following 4 dispositor angels at which I prayed to them and offered them incense and candle flame.

The fist day with the first tablet I could get the feeling of presence. the second day I would see them in my minds eye. But the third day shocked me as I actually saw a being in front of me(well a halo of a being) and there were white misty clouds darting about the circle. I was as if I was seeing them physically and it frightened me a bit. So I took the following day off. I plan on resuming the prayers for the last tablet in a few days.

The enochina beings are real and I can see why the prophets in the old testiment speak of terror and fear when they speak about the images of angels. They are SO powerful it CAN be rather disturbing. Though not always. Sorry if this is a super long post.
[/quote]

I want to add that I wasn't terrified that I was in danger, not was just too much at that moment, but I was able to finish what I did. I think I may finish the last tablet tonight.

The EE's tend to do that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You will get used to it though LOL Definatly a bit unnerving at first.

Athena

Very true - they didn't have the handy rites we all have now. Indeed, they didn't really do magick - they prayed (another form of magick, yes, but not the type we think of when we mention the term "magick"). Just because Dee and Kelley didn't use banishing rituals doesn't mean we shouldn't (just to be a "purist") - indeed, they didn't actually use the Enochian system in the first place, so does that mean we shouldn't too (just to be a "purist")? Yes, they communicated with some of the angels, but they didn't use what the angels delivered to them.



Are you suggesting that all Enochian magicians should throw away their rituals and pray instead? Firstly, there's alot of anti-Christian sentiment going around, and I know a good few people who dislike the strong Christian (Gnostic) focus of the Calls, etc. Yes, prayer works, and I thoroughly enjoy the Christian elements of this system - however, if you're going to dismiss things like the LBRP, then you might as well dismiss working Enochian and Voudon in tandem too, given Dee and Kelley didn't use/do that either.

I agree to a certain extent with the rest of what you said in that post, though I would consider the G.'.D.'. teachings on Enochian to "count", however skewed they may be. They have, while butchering parts of it, made some interesting expansions of it in other areas, and, if nothing more, most of us probably wouldn't even have heard of Enochian if it was not for the G.'.D.'.'s popularisation of it. I think it's become a bit of a fad to dismiss the G.'.D.'. nowadays, just like Christianity, but if we are to claim to be intelligent beings, I think a little perspective is needed here.

Just my three cents (to make up for inflation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif))...

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

Ive been confused about this whole enochian magickal workings. Im interested in invoking the enochian angles in a simplified way not adding all the ceromonial aspects of it. can someone direct me in a way of how to start contact with the angels in a simple way?

THanks,
George

You know I don't think anything enochian can be simple.

All energy work is simple. Just belief is all it takes. By the way Kelley is the only one who knew how to scry thats why Dee had him around.

The simplest form you can take is prayer and meditation on a daily basis. Beseech the angels to appear, etc. However, I feel this won't work as easilly or as well, given the intended ceremonial aspects of this and similiar systems.

LLLSHJ,
Y.

Ceremonial aspects? Dee and Kelly setup the ball or shewstone, called a couple of angels, some prayers to their Deity and set to work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). I would think anything less simple and you would just get anything random that happened by and was bored. As long as simple means "after a hell of a lot of practice" then yes it can be done quite simply. If however simple means being able to call up an enochian entiry reliably after a few weeks of magical practice and hope to get the right one and some decent communication? I recommend other hobbies <g>.

Athena

I have no experience with enochian but I can state without a doubt that this does work and works extremely well for angelic work.

The ammount of seals and squares and other complex-looking things that are part of the Enochian system suggests that there was a high ceremonial aspect to the actual practice of it. Dee was waiting a long time ('til his death, actually) to work that system. Receiving the system and working it is not quite the same, though yes indeed, he did have active communication with them through intense and prolonged prayer.

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

Very true, but beyond enochian or actually before it there is a long tradition of performing angel magick such as this. Examples are seen in the Ars Notoria, the Sworn Book of Honorius or Liber Juratus, and hinted at in the Arbatel and Armadel. The Abramelin should be considered as well. Dee was well read and had access to these books and more, so he was not reinventing the wheel as it were but rather using the methods that he knew and most likely appealed highly to his Christian belief system.

This is a little off topic on the thread but I am just trying to point out that Dee was not alone but rather one of a long line of magicians that used similar techniques to contact angelic and non physical beings to learn magick or a whole new system of magick. It is my personal belief that the solomonic and other grimories are nothing more than the end result of these workings. The written notes and explanations of these received instructions. I see no reason why modern magicians cannot follow in the foot steps of this tradition. We may not all be as successful as Dee and Kelly were but I can only assume the revealed information will be more personal and suited to our mentality.

And now I have gone off topic, so if anyone would like to continue in this vain we could of course start a new thread else where.

edit(above:Frater Yechidah in response to Athena.)

I think any modern working in Enochian falls short of 'pure': the magus' particular mind-set contributed so profoundly to the working. Any kind of grimoire magick is linked to the Middle Ages, full of its intense Catholicism, paranoid superstition, half-forgotten, endlessly copied Classical texts and exotic Judaism. To synthesise it all into a coherent way of life, the magus had Abelard and the Dumb Ox, uniting philosophy and theology/reason and religion. As the most nuanced kind of literature (in the language of ritual and symbol) we are all aware that the grimoire tries to express something ineffable. Dee's writings are those of a monastic MYSTIC and the tablets are a spiritual testament. John Aubrey's (near) contemporary writings suggest that Dee was feared by the 'commonalty', as a 'black magician, left over from the medieval past'. His medieval leanings must be true: I think it's that particular way of seeing things that ultimately unlocks the 'secret workings' of this system, in any way Dee ever intended. The work is at its most inventive and intriguing when seen in perspective. Any ranting about a 'correct' way of doing things is naturally false.

This post has been edited by tyrian: Dec 6 2006, 03:54 PM