I am curious, not because I am a satanist but because I really would want to do this. I always here of people (usually satanists) selling their souls or making a pact with a demon or something but is it possible for another human to infact give away their soul to another? My reasons for wanting to know your opinion are quite private but I just am wondering what you think.

This is one of those issues where young neophytes have a tendancy to over magickalize things.

Certainly you can steal a soul. Soul = Purpose. Give your Purpose to 'Satan' and get some benefit in return. Theoretically.

If someone gives you their purpose, you direct their actions and intentions. But, it's not a matter of handing over a soul jar, or soul stone, or some foolishness like that. There is no magickal means beyond the practical magick of manipulation that will allow you to take someone's purpose.

that's what cult leaders do. Use their magnetic personality to draw the weak into their cult and apprehend their purpose. He hijacks their soul.

If you have to ask, it's likely you lack the talent. Which is probably better, because no one needs more irresponsible people like that running around.

peace

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Aug 13 2006, 09:51 AM

Hahaha, thank you. But first off allow me to disperse your thoughts that I am some kind of neophyte, I will not waste my time trying to prove to you that I'm not because honestly I have nothing to prove. I wrote this not to ask HOW to but to see if any of you think it was possible, and if you had any theories on it. I do not take being called a young neophyte kindly so I ask in the future you use some discretion before making assumptions. Now if any of you read this please reply in the way I have asked, I hope I have made this perfectly clear.

Very admirable statement! I've seen too often people assuming some sort authority in magick because they've read a book or two and want their ego stroked, (or sadly they've played too many games and believe that since they were a level 21 mage, they're VERY much an adept in the actual practice and the same rules apply but omit dice or a magick bar..oy!) so it's refreshing to see someone who's NOT trying to be something they're not.

Honestly, I'd refer you to the book, Pacts With the Devil.

In this book he talks about this just occasion in Vodou, where you don't sell your own soul but that of other people. So, when something comes through on the bargain, your soul isn't taken, often it's people close to you. (This is only a practice that some practitioners of Vodou do. Many of them are against it and find it a certain pathway to angering their dieties.) It is possible and I've heard of some practitioners able to do it, but, in the instances where you would actually 'want' to wager a soul of a person there are better ways to go about doing it, but that's me.

I think it's possible, and i offered a theory. Also, it is eaily possible that magicians who are not young neophytes may encounter this issue, and still not have a good theory of their own to put into practice, or not enough information, and so misinterpret what exactly 'stealing a soul' or 'trading a soul' means.

Of the number of people I have entered into the subject with, all of them were individuals generally new to magick. Selling one's soul is the obviously quick and 'easy' way to get something. The majority of experienced magicians I have traded theory and practice with in the past, have by and large seemed to understand how valuable a soul is, and understand the long list of reasons why you shouldn't part with it.

The exact same principle applies to giving your soul away to someone. You center your purpose on them. You give them the control over your path, and commit to giving up your own will. Who knows what you may get in exchange, although the natural sensations will likely involve security and a source of faith.

The question is, can you bring yourself to give your soul away? It's a totally selfless act, in a way, as there can be none of your own will in your purpose thereafter, or you've retained some of it.

Pardon my consdescending nature, you're not the first person it's bothered. The manifestation of this kind of magick is fairly obvious when you give it some thought in combination with just a little experience with one's own sense of the Soul.

I call 'em like I see 'em. If it makes you feel better, I do make assumptions, but I don't get attached to them. I don't care who you are, I only care about your question, and answering it with the best of my ability as my experience allows.

peace

Selling of souls is not an option. IMO, your soul is not wholly yours to trade, being a fragment of a larger entitiy which is the collective conscious or unconscious as the case may be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/starspin.gif) Starstuff!!

I don't think it is posible to sell your soul in the fiscal sense. It is more of a submission to someone for something. Maybe a trade for your person in exchange for some financial or material benefit. That could be considered as being selfish.

However, I think that you may share your soul as lovers do, which is the transcendental merger and reunion of a minute part of the collective conscious/unconscious. Maybe thes thoughts are bordering on the metaphysical, and should be moved.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/angel.gif)

Thank you for your opinions! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/kicking.gif) I am not interested in selling my soul, I was just interested because I have been studying cult leaders and other people in history that have had a major influence in this world not because of themselves but because of their influence over people. When I see a mass of people have such a blind trust for one person it just makes me wonder if there is more to the leader than their charisima and ability to manipulate. I have a small magickal following I guess you could call it that I happen to be the leader of and I have sat down and asked each of them why they have trusted me enough to follow me and they havent given me very satisfying answers, they all basically said that it is because they like me and that I got them introduced into the occult. And in this day and age I am sad to say that it is hard to find people you can truly trust, so I posed this theory. I appologise because I believe my title was a bit misleading, I dont infact plan to steal anyones soul but rather to have people give it as a sign that I can trust them. Perhaps this is a bit extreme, but again its only a theory.

Did you consider getting to know a person, reading their aura, doing a tarot reading, etc., to see if you culd trust them? No offense to your abilities, as you seem a bit touchy about them, but there are easier ways to know if you can trust someone. Having people give you their souls - A. Is downright immoral, and is probably more karma than you're capable of working off in a lifetime, so i can't imagine where it'll land you next go-around - and B. Is way overkill just to know if you can trust someone.

The occult / cult leaders who have been in this world were either trusted because they could be trusted, or trusted because they were masters of psychological manipulation. You say there is a certain something else about those people, but just consider the idea that Mind/Body/Soul might all be inexplicably interconnected.

And I realize you're only pondering the theory. I've said before that magicians have a responsibility to push the boundaries (even if they've been pushed before and we just forgot) of what magick can do, what it is for, and how it can be used. But, also consider the idea of the Djinn in the stone - do you really want to let it out?

A soul is a substance of divine intention. It is your purpose, and your karma. it's the essence of all of your challenges in life. Allow someone to give that up, and you're doing wrong by them by taking away from them the only means of real growth they have, the only venue to excise their karma - you're also taking posession of their purpose, and their karma, and that makes it your responsibility to take care of. If you feel like you're up for the task of purifying souls, then maybe it's not such a terrible thing. On the other hand, if you yourself can, in fact, purge a soul of karma and lay in a couse for fullfillment of divine intention, i'll book the next flight to where you are, bud.

peace

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Aug 14 2006, 12:22 PM

I do not know for a fact vagrant dreamer that this is true. You state it, but that does not prove it or make it a fact. I do not wish to blindly believe what you state.
Its nice to support your opinion a little, to help us "lesser neophytes" understand.


Bloodarchon, to answer your question, first we must know what you mean by "the soul". Then we can perhaps answer if it is possible to steal someones soul.
But now we have no clue what the soul is.
It means so many different things in different schools of magick, there is no clear cut answer to this question, unless you specify wich soul you are talking about.

I'd be curious to know where you believe karma originates, assuming you do believe in it. Pardon my conviction of statements, I've Seen my Soul. But of course you shouldn't blindly accept it - think it through on your own, then go See for yourself.

I do agree that it would be helpful to know what Bloodarchon means by 'Soul'. I'm sure there are lots of definitions. However, i'm willing to bet that when you boil down all the fancy jargon, it amounts to a simpler term - Purpose.

Also, I haven't referred to anyone as a "lesser neophyte," or see anyone here that way - Bloodarchon asked a question, and I answered it to the best of my ability and experience, which in this particular area happens to be considerable. You don't see me responding to posts on the enochian board - I don't practice or study enochian magick.

When I see a subject like this, forgive me if I feel some responsibility to relay my own experience and/or current theory.

peace

My definition of a soul is the entity in side us that separates us from lesser beings, it is not only are purpose but it is what enables us to CHOOSE what are purpose is. An animal has a certain role it is expected to play in this reality and it is extremely rare that it fails to do so, and if it does it is usually because of human intervention or circumstances that effect its environment.

Say a satanist gives there soul away, well in my eyes that person no longer has a say in what there purpose is in life. Satan from that moment on uses them and their actions to further his cause wether it be for their good or not. Same thing with christianity, even though it isnt as blunt christians in fact give there soul away to god...I mean have you listened to their songs? They practicly are begging to be his puppet....

Now in my opinion I do not believe its permanent, I believe that if said person has enough will power they can infact regain control of their lives.. but this feat would be extremely difficult to acomplish.

Selling the soul,is selling your identity,your fredom,your feelings,your reason...
I think that is the stupidest think that anyone can do...is a spiritual suicide....

This post has been edited by Eroscupidonamor: Aug 16 2006, 07:36 AM

in that way, with enough energy i think it is possible to devise a ritual to capture another persons soul.

This would however give you lots of bad karma, as previously said.

You would also need a vessel of some sort to store/seal the soul in. I do not think you can keep the soul on you, since your body is already the seat of another soul.
The vessel should be masterly crafted and magically strengthened during a ritual you performed someday earlier. Otherwise it would not be capable of containing a human soul, since what you define as a soul is in my opinion rather strong and not easily contained.
The vessel should be inscribed with barbaric names and sigils, that would strengthen it enough to contain the soul.

During the sealing ritual you should then intone and call upon these barbaric names. You should keep the vessel outside your circle, as when doing evocation. A forcibly removed soul could do you some harm out of anger.
Later on you should bring the vessel inside of the circle for further sealing.
You may devise a means of tapping power from this vessel, if you wish to do so. Perhaps via a special sigil on the vessel, which allows you to tap into it when you touch it.

It may be possible the persons soul you steal will die after a while without its soul. Giving your soul to the devil does not remove your soul imho. it dedicates your soul to him, but leaves it inside your body.

This would be my approach on it, and the ritual would be researched in various occult books, like crowleys 777. For symbolisms and correct barbaric names fitting for such a ritual. It would take a whole lot of work, but it is possible i believe.

Vagrant dreamer, i apologize if i offended you in my previous post (IMG:style_emoticons/default/oops.gif)

That sounds very interesting...lol unfortunetly my magick is extremely casual so I dont know how well that would work for me. Me being a chaos sorcerer (or whatever you want to call it) my magick is quite on the spot, the rituals I do dont have any special formulas I just take what has worked for me in the past and apply it to whatever I might need. The only thing that remains constant is my prayer to my gods (Anubis,Osiris,Isis and Ra) who have been guiding me for more than a year but that is besides the point...

Perhaps you heard of this: Some guy was selling his soul via ebay last year (i think)
-i dont know how that went, but sounds interesting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif) and i wonder will it catch on (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hypocrite.gif)

that is a form of ritual work you developed for yourself. What i said was just a pointer, you should do it in your style.
However if you succesfully perform such a ritual the result will be there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

if 'soul' defined here is purpose(idea) or energy that carries purpose of individual, 'entity' inside us with karma program, and stealing would be deprograming that entity, changing path of individual by changing 'purpose'.
it could be , it is really (self)destructive action to do playing with someones karma, it would be less painful i believe if subjects are willing, but it ends all to one thing- i believe that one manipulating other ppl souls is taking 'karmic responsibility' for them.
and there are more simpler ways to do that purpose transfer than triangle&barbaric names

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/hypocrite.gif)

Would you be willing to share some of your ideas on how you believe this will be done, I have since devised a way to get what I want without having to steal someones soul but now I am curious, and if I changed the path of someone wouldnt I be Reprogramming instead of Deprograming? And doesnt karma have to do with the persons actions, not their soul? I can understand if what I'm doing to them comes back to me but are not the things they due under my influence still their fault? Since they still could have refused?...lol sry for all the questions... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

i dont believe in whole soul stealing idea like we read in novels or see on movies.(eternal terminology drama) in previous posts ppl identified term soul with someones purpose in life, or giving soul-devoting self to that one goal, and along those lines i posted what you read above....yes- Reprogramming-my bad, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy100.gif) thanks.
what i was saying (and its 3.40am now here, i might sound even more confusing) about karma...i called it karma, lets say you change someones path to direction in way beneficial(or not) to you. (and now this could be really question of belief) you are creator of that persons 'new will' or goal, purpose, so all his acts would be considered as consequence of your act(reprogramming act), since he/she is acting in direction you set him/her to.
and how to do... creativity and frustration needed

i hope i made my previous post clearer if not maybe its for best (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Interesting, while i t think reprogramming someones soul is possible, it is not the same as completely stealing it or removing it from the person.
A soul stolen does not equal a reprogrammed person, all that is left in wake of the persons soul is a void, a black empty soulles void.

personally, i believe the soul is the combination of your magickal will and the energy behind it. The very essence that enables one to use any sort of magick.
It is that flow of energy you feel when practising magick. The source of mana, chi, ki, or whatever name you give magickal energy. To steal it from someone else will highten your own capabilities to direct magickal energy. And leave the person without a soul incapable of performing any magick, since there is no director left to perform the magick.

It is a very hard thing to do, becouse you actually kill a person when you steal its soul :
After the stealing the flesh left behind becomes a biological machine, nothing more. Thinking and acting only with the brain, or the body. After death of the flesh the person is no more, he ceases to exist becouse no soul is left to seed a new body.

Naturally this would be realy dark magick, with severe unescapable karma punishment involved.

However, one would not get the karma from the person's soul who's stolen. In fact, becouse of the act of having its soul stolen, or removed. All karma for that soul would be removed, thanks to the evil it just experienced. When bad is done upon you, your karma gets a positive balance thanks to it, at least thats what i think.
Even if it is not that case, it is the stealers soul who is guiding his direction in life, the stolen soul is just a puppet, a source of food for the stealer, wheter or not it has karma does not even matter for the stealer. Its karma means nothing compared to the bad karma balance the stealer just aquired anyway.

I would advise at doing such a thing, since there is not much gain from it. After the theft you would be fighting your own karma effects for the rest of your existance in all your next lives, and this live. There are better ways to aquire power if you need it. Messing with peoples souls, or lives, is the darkest magick you can possibly do.

But i do think it is possible. if enough ritual, intent, and magickal will is present during the ritual to cause such an effect.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/offtopic.gif) You know I cant help to notice that you all seem to have a tendency to bring up karma over and over again throughout this post....I for one do not believe in karma, I believe that if you do something it will bring back a reaction...and the only differance is wether that action is benificial or harmful to you. Who is ignorant enough to dare to say what is bad and good in anyones eyes but their own, the US attacks Iraq because of the terrorist actions of 9/11, to them it was a good thing, it was retaliation and proving that the terroists were no match for them, but what else happened when those bombs were dropped? Millions of civilians, children, and innocent people were killed as well...though the terrorists were stopped it also killed innocent people as well good/bad...so what karma will the US get? Will they get good karma for killing the terrorists? Or bad karma for killing innocent people? lol sorry I dont buy it...I could go on but at the risk of offending any of you I'll hold my tounge.

you confuse karma with a human sense of right and wrong.

karma is universal, and not easily understood.

before you claim to believe or not believe in something, you should research what it is al about.
Karma is not really about direct action reaction. It is about a sort of balance scale inside your soul, which fluctuates depending on actions you take. The result of that balance draws certain experiences towards you and your soul, in this life and the next lives. A bad karma balance will tend to draw events of equal polarity towards you, thus bad events.

This is just the gist of it, but it does not matter that much, because it is humanly impossible to be sure of the karma result of your actions.
Unless your actions or magic only effect yourself, then the karma result is minimal.

To a mage karma is more important than a normal person, a bad karma balance will slow down or stop your progress in magickal paths. Unless your working with such aligned, "dark" entities.

yeah, I know lots of people who don't believe in karma. Yet there they are, struggling with the same issues and difficulties in life as everyone else.

I'll agree with smoking fox wholeheartedly here - to a mage, karma is more important than for a normal person. A mage is involved in the active pursuit of (some ascentive concept here). If you cannot identify, confront, and work out, your karma, you will only ever get so far in your magickal path before having to start over again.

I think it is tempting to believe in a purely subjective universe in which what you don't believe in has no power over you. But, have you considered the idea that maybe having a law such as karma in the universe, gives you a direct ladder to ascension? Those laws which seem to hold us down, are often found to be the foundation blocks upon which we must uild our temples - were there no such foundation, our temples would sink into the muck of the gross physical world.

At the risk of sounding like a traditionalist, there have been a whole lot of people, for many thousands of years, all seperately coming up with the same concepts through magickal work, journeying, divine communion, etc... they all understand a karmic balance even if they use different terminology. There's a whole lot of support for karma - what experiential proof do you have against it?

Like Fox says, do a little research, and you may come to understand the true nature of karma, or something close enough for mortal purposes. I had the same cause/effect notion of karma (do something bad, something bad will happen to you) originally as well, I think it's a western failing generally, but the actual mechanism is truly far more complex and interesting than social backlash.

peace

lol I see...by posting that last post I posted I also wanted to prove a point, I said something against karma and went against it and you, right on que, came to its defense. (action/reaction). But I will take in your advice about researching it more, its just that when I see people talk about karma they are usually using it as a crutch when they're in an argument about whether they believe what someone is doing is morally right or not...hmmm I just woke up so forgive me if this isnt that clear....but anyways thats just what I'VE seen...

Right or Wrong are fairly localized concepts. The taoist might say that both are moot, for we can do no thing other than fulfill our Karma - if karma were a taoist concept - I mean to say that, we follow the flow of karma regardless to wether we want to or not. So, 'right' and 'wrong' or 'good' and 'evil' become very very fuzzy...

Action/reaction are valid concepts, don't misunderstand me - and i'm pretty sure everyone here will agree that they that push and pull, action/reaction, positive negative, polarity issue, is definitely an important concept. It's just not the same thing as karma.

I certainly agree that karma is often used as a justification/weapon/pillar in argument or conversation, even in the complex process of justifying to oneself what actions to take, morally. I don't think it's necessarily destructive for an individual to approach karma from a moral standpoint, though. If believing in an action/reaction scheme of karma keeps you from being morally bankrupt, and you aren't a dedicated and practicing mage, then *shrug* call it whatever you want. (not you specifically, just 'you' as the general second person pronoun)

Oh yeah, let's all also not forget - when it comes to matters governing human nature and not a 'facet' of gross human nature, it's all up for interpretation. A different interpretation directs an energy into a different channel, and it's still going to have some kind of gross effect on your life, your mind, your path, etc. The effect of the energy is unavoidable, but the means by which that effect manifests, that's ultimately up to you.

peace

Your right vagrant, I totally agree with you on that. Well I guess karma, like most things is up to the discretion of the person to decide what it means to them.

one could say it is a choice for the person to believe in it. But if karma is real, then there is only one true karma and one way that karma works. We just don't understand it.

Its not that important either. If fear of karma is the only thing that keeps a mage in check from doing something "bad" then his mindset is way of for a good mage anyway.

I don't buy all the talk of 'karma' either.. to me it seems like a new version of 'oh everything comes back x3!!!' chicken littles.

But, as far as your original question, I don't know if it is possible to actually 'steal' someone's soul.. assuming all people have souls.. I have been working on something similar to what you are talking about, but basically to lay enough bindings and workings onto someone until you have the same effect of 'stealing their purpose'. I am also attempting to tie in alot of normal social engineering here to increase the effect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by Seronleithian: Sep 14 2006, 10:40 PM

In terms of karma, let's discard the adjectives good and evil and instead consider it as a matter of balance. All actions, even inaction, change our energetic balance in some way. Magicians seeking balance must be aware of the ramifications of actions in order to equilibrate themselves. Magicians who don't give a fig about equilibration, must still be aware of their personal imbalances in order to not have them affect their workings. However you view the final goal of life, your balance will affect it.

If you believe in reincarnation, as I do, it is necessary to establish goals over multiple lifetimes in order to establish certain complex balances. The differing perspectives of the different material situations you incarnate in allows a triangularization of sorts on a particular energetic issue. Karma, accrued imbalances, are one of the issues addressed this way.

In terms of soul stealing and giving, I think the stealing is more common. Entities from lower planes routinely gain flesh by instilling themselves in infants or other person's with a weak hold. Cases of obsession and possession are frequent occurrences in magical circles particularly when inadequate shielding is used. The new possessor of the body must overcome the strength and balance of the original owner in order to hold the body. Sometimes the attacker finds that it has bitten off more than it can chew. Sometimes not.

I agree that generally, a soul is not entirely consumed by this process. Usually the entities sharing flesh become one incorporating their qualities. By incorporating another's essence into yours, you also acquire their imbalances and obligations. This is another balance issue.

My question is why would you want anyone's soul? I find that the upkeep on one requires tremendous effort.

motsie