Tetragrammaton and YHVH (yod heh vau heh) . . . .

I'm to understand that the reference "Tetragrammaton" and "YHVH" aren't necassarily the same thing.

Tetragrammaton is a greek word referring (occult-wise) to the four principal elemental components of the Divine Body
YHVH are the four-fold power of the body of the divine (GOD) in any particular manifest aspect. (a semetic/hebrew theological origin)

Is that right . . . the four-fold YaHoWaH and the (nearly barbarous name) Tetragrammaton aren't necassarily referring the the exact same concept ?

(this make sense in light of the Triangle of Art . . . though I'm not using the archangelic binding/controlling formula, only the three greek barbarous names of manifestation)

This post has been edited by palindroem: Aug 27 2006, 11:54 AM

I've never heard the word Tetragrammaton refer to anything other than the four-fold Name of God (YHVH).


Paul

This post has been edited by Radiant Star: Sep 8 2006, 03:04 AM

Indeed Tetragrammaton is YHVH and nothing else....
If you read the Talmud you will know that the hebrews were not alowed to use the sacred name YHVH but only Adonay...so in the helenistic period the hebrews from Grece were using Tetragrammaton...
This is the historical fact and the only reality behind this name....
Since he is used in the triangle of art in the Tetragrammaton form i supose that YHVH being God's name - the most powerfull wouldn't allow the appearance of an evil spirit...so is replaced with the Teragrammaton...

Yes . . . I think I've heard something about the jews reserving the use of YHVH.
Although I'm pretty sure that was primarily verbal use that ADNI was one of the words they substatuted for it, and that they wrote YHVH all over the place.
As well, I'm almost positive that the greek concept of the four elements was either pre-platonic or Platonic (4th cent BC) and hellenistic period was 3rd-1st cent BC . . . . AND, I don't think that the Greek concept of the body-divine was only something they barrowed from that tiny little group of semetic semi-nomadic farmers . . .
We are, of course, agreed that Greece had a pretty thriving religious and magickal tradition all on its own without having to depend on Hebraic people . . . right.
(a voice of absolute conviction isn't that convincing)


I'm not really sure who the "he" is that your referring to. Certainly YHVH isn't the only god . . . .?

The barbarous names really have nothing to do with allowing or disallowing "evil spirits".

And thats specifically one of the issues here . . . I'ts not YHVH used in the Triangle formula. Its specifically not referring to that four-fold type of aspect of the semetic God. Its the four-element spiritual body that the Triangle formula calls on . . . Which does allow for "evil" spirits to appear.
(Erosc, maybe your not very familiar with this whole triangle thingy . . . its one of the 'tools' used in some older grimiores, like Lemegaton, as and aid and boundry for calling spirits. Particularly demons and evil spirits.)

And in coordination with the other three barbarous words (in the traditional triangle formula) its clearly not referring to a deity inparticular, but to one of three component (in a particular priority) for spiritual manifestation.

(anytime someone says "what I'm presenting is the only reality", makes me whince for the sake of the others that read that and might be inclined to believe it .... )

Well ,I'm well awear about the Triangle of the Art!
It appears in judeo-christian grimoires were YHVH is GOD....The God...
Tetragrammaton is YHVH...I'm a ceremonialist and i know,have and understand all possible grimoires....From lemegeton to arbatel,to the greater key and Abramelin and others...I never use in invocations words that I do not understand or do not have meaning to me...I advice YOU you to read some theory of magic like Agrippa and Levi to see Who is YHVH...
Tetragramaton is not barbarous: is a word who has a profound meaning and much simbolism...
The other two names have meaning too- their meaning was explain by Crowley and Bardon...
Michael is the ONE WHO RESEMBLES GOD so is your power in the triangle...your god form...

that is all I have to say...do not become a speculative philosopher:magic sometimes is mistery,always is reason and is an initiatic path that must be followed waching the teachings of elder adepts-like the ones mentioned above....

This post has been edited by Eroscupidonamor: Aug 28 2006, 07:47 AM

Thanks for your reply. Although they didn't provide the depth I was hoping for . . . they were enlightening.

It was my understanding that YHVH was the inneffable name of God. i.e. you weren't supposed to say it out loud. Tetragrammaton literally means "four letter word". Since you weren't supposed to say YHVH, Tetragrammaton was used in place of it.

YHVH is certainly reserved in orthodox Judism for only the high priest to say.
Often in jewish literagy the written word YHVH is replaced with some 'lesser' word when spoken . . . such as ADNI
Within the western magickal tradition its a different thing altogether . . . we say it all the time.

Literally in greek (well, transliterally) Tetragrammaton means "The Four Lettered" . . . and its certainly assumed to mean YHVH.
If we assume that the only possible purpose of the greek word Tetragrammaton is in referrence to a correlate hebrew word ... it might be acceptable to mean YHVH or ADNI or EHIH or AGLA (or any other four lettered word).
Its certainly appropriate, in most situations, to assume it to mean the four-fold aspect of the Divine YHVH.

This post has been edited by palindroem: Aug 29 2006, 03:12 PM

Interesting idea, although I have never heard anyone else question that Tetragrammaton = YHVH.

It is the accepted "truth", but that doesn't mean we cannot question accepted concepts. Although Tetragrammaton is rarely used within modern circles except when dealing with grimoric magick. I had always assumed the use of Tetragrammaton came about due to the inablity to read and write hebrew very well. The medieval authers weren't known for their hebrew scholarship.

Tetragrammaton = YHVH Pronounced Yah-weh.

NERO!!
(how'd the triA go for you? . . . . you still on YM?)

Far be it for me to question accepted truth (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif) . . . well . . .

I'm certainly not trying to suggest that Tetragrammaton doesn't generally equal YHVH . . . but that their are other aspects to the value of Tetragrammaton in addition to the more general Tetragrammaton = YaHoWaH.
I'm getting information about the formula of the Triangle (in its current "evolved" state), with the suggestion that Tetragrammaton is utilized instead of YHVH very specifically . . . not simply to avoid YHVH (for whatever theological or scribal reasons)

Certainly Tetragrammaton is prevelent in grimoric magick . . . but also in evocational magick . . . and to some degree any magick that focus' on a loci of manifestation (talisman consecrations...).
And its really that, that Tetragrammaton seems to me resonant with . . . the loci of manifestation.
Granted, the old boys sometimes didn't get thier hebrew perfect . . . they did seem to get the four-lettered words right for the most part though.

I guess the real crux (and the real point of my question) is to verify the follow:
"The formula of the classic Triangle of Art would be broken if the "barbarous word" Tetragrammaton were replaced with YHVH."

(I certainly understand that other, self-styled, magicians have made and effectively used Triangles were all the words have been replaced . . . Boobs, LOL . . . thats reall an entirely different issue though)

In this regard tho,
"each word is an important part of the formula of the whole . . . and the whole is "tuned" by its applied geometry with regards to the process of manifestation through the union of two parts of a tripolarity (as opposed to the more abstract duality) into the functional (foundational ?) third component."
"Turn the angle, tune the tool."
(my impression is that the difference is in how "Tetragrammaton" functions with the other two greek barbarous words)

I'm just trying to either make sense of that or reject it as useless/inacurate information.

Smasher . . . Yeah, basically.

This post has been edited by palindroem: Sep 7 2006, 03:56 PM

Well obviously the use of YHVH in respect to the triangle is more for the forumula of creation than the divine name. The divine spark into the womb transported through intellegent design into formation. So it's use in the triangle makes perfect sense for manifestation into the 3-D confines of the triangle with the use of the archangel for control. BUT that being said I do not have a good reason why tetragammaton would be used instead of YHVH directly.

Now a clue would be looking at the circle design used in the goetia. The "snake" has all the correct divine names of the tree of life but the internal circle about the hexagram has adoni but in english letters instead of hebrew. I have always found that funny. The person who designed the circle knew hebrew or at least the divine names in hebrew but still used english there. Not consistant in the use.

I see what you mean with the circle comparison . . . I'm not sure that the words in the Triangle are showing any inconsistancies.
Actually, quite the opposite . . . very specific consistancy. Thats really whats got me going down that rabbit-hole.
(although I'm not convinced that the archangel isnt included as a later adaptation for new theological sensitivities (IMG:style_emoticons/default/Symbols_1911.gif) )

Perhaps the person (IMG:style_emoticons/default/egypt1.gif) that designed that circle didn't need any of the extra consistancies of all the words in hebrew.

Tetragrammaton means litteraly "Four lettered Word" or "Word of Four Letters". That is Iehovah or IHVH.
Any other name of Four letters would be "a" tetragramma, but when it comes to occult and esoteric talk, we're talking 'bout THE tetragrammaton, the IHVH.
If you think, Adonay it's written with four letters too, ADNI. Eheieh, AHIH, is four lettered also. Theos is four letters, though "Th" is one letter en Greek.
Tetragrammaton is a title used for THE Word of four letters, and that is IHVH.

W.

Thanks W . . .
Academically, tetragrammaton translates as :
tetra = four
gram(ma) = letter (in this tense: "lettered")
ton = the difinitive nuetral article "The"

that is : The Four Lettered . . . literally. (its all greek to me tho)

I'm not trying to upset anyones well-founded understanding of the depths of a particular occult or esoteric issue.
Only to explore the validity (verasity) of a incidental piece of potential information using the occult community as a sounding-board.
If it turns out that there is no possible value to this additional or alternative concept, that is...no one else can find it acceptable, then I guess I have that to work with.
Just soliciting the input of the more learned.

"There is no room for authority in occultism ! "

This post has been edited by palindroem: Sep 21 2006, 02:33 PM

That's an interesting idea Palindroem and I definitely admire your inquisitive spirit.

But like most others here I've always heard that Tetragrammaton and YHVH were the same thing. Why? Because you were allowed to pronounce ADNI and AGLA and othe godnames but YHVH was "unpronouncable"...either because it was forbidden or because no one knows the "true" prounciation (this is according to tradition of course).

So I'm just curious but where did you first get the idea that the Tetragrammation and YHVH were different? What evidence have you found to support this?

It seems like an interesting concept and I'd like to know more.

Well, I think we were all taught in "Western Magickal Tradition and Kabalah - 101" that YHVH and Tetragrammaton were to be assumed to be the same thing. And I think that was all well and good . . . as an introductory concept, its usefull to associate occult concepts on a fairly simple level. Of course, we all eventually (have or will) reach a point that YHVH has many levels of meaning and applicable aspect . . . not all of them are always "simply" congruent.

And that for the Jewish, speaking the name YHVH is restricted to only one guy at one very specific time (and even then he might get
struck by an electric bolt from a golden Cherub. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lightning.gif) )

Fortunately, we're not Jewish (no offense meant).... we're (mostly) western magicians and can do things those religious folks can't (wouldnt, shouldn't, or just plain don't know to)

As for evidence . . . some of it would be distilled from a bit more then twenty years of studying occult sciences (which still only admits me just through the threshold of novice aspirant), some of it would be from research into the background of the Triangle of Art, some from degree work in Comparative Religion / Anthropology, and a bit from communication with my personal spirits (though I can't really give much more then I've have earlier in this thread).
I will try (and in some regards I expect to fail in fully explaining myself)

. . . . Greeks were Greeks, Israelite Jews were Isrealite Jews (geo-historically). And although there is a lot of cross-pollination of ideas between the cultures (particularly on concepts that seemed to be close matches) . . . each one often had their very own perspective; if not entirely intra-cultural concepts . . . no matter how similar they appeared in comparison.
But each did (often) borrow and adapt/adopt from each other.

I believe in three main aspects to mundane and metaphysical phenomenal reality....

• "Energy"
• Complexities (energys so tightly bound together in loops and lines as to constitue matter)
• Mind or Psyche (psychic energy) - this is in many respects the result of the interaction between Energy and Complexities

this is just my (current) model for dealing with and conducting my personal sorcerous work. My way of looking at generating, "programming", and sending magickal efforts / magickal energy / spirits.

A bit of my research on the Triangle of Art :
Anaphaxeton : (Energy) its greek components, or related greek words, seem to relate to reveal or appear, or to be brought to light. Or to First Appearence.
Primeumaton:(Mind) (although it may be a combination of greek and lating parts, and is a normal contraction) its greek components, or related greek words, seem to relate to thought or mind. Or First Thought
In keeping with a greco-centric interpertation . . .
Tetragrammaton : (Complexity)would seem to relate to the GREEK concept of the four elements or that thing that is a single vessle containing the four elements . . . the spirital "body" (not spiritual in a judao-xtain religious sense, but relating to spirits or entities in general)
"...Anphaneintai preumenous ap'ommaton" - Aeschylus

If Tetragrammaton always equals YHVH and since, as magicians, we use the written/spoken word YHVH . . . then why not simply replace every instance we find Tetragrammaton with the word YHVH. Why, ever, should we retain a second-hand reference to a specific power we're trying to "use".

(ok, thats my rant..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

(I Know Nothing)


As a final note . . . again, I'm not suggesting that in all instances and all aspects Tetragrammaton and YHVH aren't referring to the same thing . . . I only care about this one aspect and use.
As a introductory lesson, I think its good that beginning students are given the Tetragrammaton = YHVH concept. It provides a nice, easily digested, stable concept platform for starting that aspect of magickal training. But, it is basic and simple . . . there is usually greater depth to esoteric concepts then thier inititial layer.

This post has been edited by palindroem: Sep 24 2006, 01:03 PM

Good post Palindroem. However my research on the names Anaphaxeton and Primeumaton seemed to turn up different results than you.

Anaphaxeton is said to be the Godname used by Aaron in the old testament. It means "Great God of All the Heavenly Hosts"

Primeumaton means "Thou who art the First and the Last." Another Godname.

Based on the above it should follow that Tetragrammaton should be another Godname.

This makes sense to me as the idea of the triangle is to contain the spirit manifestation, and what better way to contain a spirit than with Godnames.

So if you're saying Tetragrammaton doesn't mean YHVH on the Triangle of Art, what exactly do you think it means?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by palindroem: Sep 25 2006, 07:19 PM

There is no room for authority in occultism?!?!?!?!?!
I felt a liittle targeted by the sentence...
My answer is this: if you are a ceremonial magician authority is very important... if you are a chaoti authority is nothing because all is allowed...
Now, if authority would not be important you can deny the authority of the claviculas, of Goetia, even the reality of the power of the Art Triangle that you have studied! You can invent other tools... you can use for example some cheese in stead of an athame to draw the pentagrams of the Lbrp... than you can invoke Lucifer with this invocation: "' Behold! This is the mighty cheese! I conjure thee Lucifer by the power of the cheese!"' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Now... again with the Tetragrammaton stuff: the logic is simple: please read the talmud and you will see from where the great respect of the hebrew for the sacred YhVh... Read a little history too: you will see that at the beginnig of the christian era jews from the Greek space, were having a greek culture... so magic from that time should have some greek influences... Tetragrammaton is one of them... The name jesus is another: i mean you do not really pray with Joshua or Yehoshua... you say a very greek like Jesus... Iesous!
For the question of why we do not change back with Yhvh ... well the answer is simple : why repair something that works perfectly?!

Since you believe that Tetragrammaton means more than Yhvh...(ahih,theos,adni etc) , i can say that you say something like: Tetragramaton means more than God : ir also means God. GOd, God.etc!!
Again if you read historians from the first christian centuries you will find a couple of situassions when they declare something like this: the sacred tetragram was spoken ince a year , in the day of Yom Kippur by the high priest in the Holy Sanctuary... It is clear that it could not mean nothing else... because the other names were spoken by jews...

Authority is very important in ceremonial magic... is the basis of conjuration : I conjure thee... by the authority of Thee...! Ecce pentaculum Salomoni! by his authority exorcizo igitur te creatura...

See, you can not just change the rules (if you are a ceremonialist,other change them like the chaoti but we are talking about the triangle of art wich is a ceremonial instrument...)... You can not just accept some authority, and some not...just because we do not seem to understand some things. we are limited by the limits of speculation...practice is the only proof...

(p.s. i excuse myself for the little acid tone...please forgive me... again is my opinion,, i do not need aprouval,plus i love to be criticized... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif) )

"There is no room for authority in occultism" - Dion Forutne . . . (ηλίθιος γάιδαρος ) . . .
( don't feel just a little targeted, your tone is unnecassarily authoritarian)
....... I couldn't really care about the rest of your post . . . its overly dogmatic for my taste.



This post has been edited by palindroem: Sep 27 2006, 05:29 AM

Eroscupidonamor

While i respect your purist attitude towards tradition its not the only way. I Have succesfuly employed Enochian and even Shamanic Influences in Evocation. Yes you have alot of good points in regards to Authority and I hate to say this there are no fixed rules! the Grimoires are riddled with Inuendo's and dead ends. At the end of the day its what works for you... there are tried and trusted methods that have been used for the last hundred years by numerous practitioners that deviate from the Ceremonial Outlines in the grimoires... Are the limits to our magick not our own ..?

Yes... the limits to our magic are indeed our own...
But what are yur own limits?is not there any objective Universe? only the subjective one? There is a topic with the laws of magic or manifestation on these forums...there are limits, and even if we have the keys inside of us we still need guides to take us at the gate... Even the existence of these forums are prooves that my words are not vain... the need for guidance...
and my "authority" is resonable... history prooves.. there for i'm not just saying this is like me because i think so... I do not like revolutions...I like only evolutions(there is a smaller amount of dead people)....when is possible...So, if reason is dogmatic ...well is the best dogma there is...

(p.s. in greek "dogma" means opinion. The idea that is a fix rule comes from some historical declination of the real sense of the word...this as some extra information...)

Peace!

This post has been edited by Eroscupidonamor: Sep 27 2006, 06:32 PM

Hello all:
I have always been curious about 'God'. Has he always been one entity?
I read that Abraham came from Ur (where Nannar, good of the moon was worshiped), I figure that's where the lunar elements of the jewish religion come from (a seven day week, lunar calendar). The cult to Nannar or Sin was eventually abandoned.

He arrived at Caanan and met the pantheon of gods in which El was the head of, the gods under him collectively called the Elohim. From this a multitude of personal names and place names start or end with 'El' which was represented as a bull.

Interestingly enough Yam and Baal were his sons or underlings. From that we get the Baal (or lord) cults. And a multitude of personal names with Baal (some later chaged by bible redactors to Bath or 'shame' when it was no longer politically correct due to monoteism)

Then out of nowhere, Moses (with means 'brings forth') and it is a chopped or incomplete name as the god's name has been eliminated (instead or Ra-moses or Tut-moses etc) brings the cult of Ya-weh (based on this shouldnt his name be Ya-moses?). Personal names from then on start using the Ya root, as Ya-shua etc. Mika-ya instead of Mika-el etc.

So who is this Ya god? First he bocomes a part of El's entourage (I think one of the Psamls says something about Yah joining the Elohim) and then replaces the Elohim and El himself to become the head (and only member) of the pantheon.

Apparently even Moses' brother Aaron got cought up in the riddle since he made a golden effigy of god as a bull (He naturally assumed it was El, represented as a bull). Moses was so upset he had 3000 of 'El's followers killed, although he forgave his brother. This to me says that Yah and El are NOT one and the same and they represent different deities, specially since no effigies were allowed to be made of it, and it name was hidden (under penalty of death) the only ones allowed to know the name of the god were the High priests. Unortunately centuries later they were killed and now we dont know the name or pronunciation of Moses's god.

I've read somewhere that 'I am' is pronounced in early hebrew as 'ersh' or something like that and that god's name pronunciation was very similar to it. So that when asked for its name by Moses he responded 'I am ersh' as a play in words. Not understanding, the bible redactors wrote 'I am who I am'. Another example is 'tell them 'I am' sent them' which makes less sense than for example 'tell them 'ersh' sent them'. Its and interesting theory and I would like to know your thoughts on it. As it would indicate the proper vocalization and vowels for the name of god.

Another theory is that Yaweh was a sun god, based on Josephus's repudiation of common tales at the time (~ 30 AD). He strongly repudiated the notion that Moses had been a priest at Heliopolis (sun god temple), but at least gave us some idea of the ideas floating at the time.

I have read as well another theory, that being that the sumerian god Enki, or Ea is the same as Ya, based on parallels of their actions (Saving Noah form the flood, creating humanity etc) and the phonetic similarities.

In all of these cases one could probalby explain an correspondance to Ya or Yah but what about the other letters like Vh. What are they supposed to mean?, are they an epitheth (like 'the creator') or are they part of the name of the god itself? any brainstroming on the subject would be welcome.

Sorry for the rambling post, but all of your comments sparked ideas and reminded me of interesting stuff I've read on the past.

P.S. AGLA is another acronym, does anyone remember what it stands for?

P.S.S. Does anyone know of a good resource (book or site) listing the frequency of ussage of El' Ya' or Baal' etc in personal names and locations for given periods in the Caanaite/Israel area?

P.S.S.S the common 'Hallelu-ya' means praise be to Ya.

P.S.S.S.S: I have always come across in everythin I've read that the tetragamaton is Yhyh, just my two cents.

Thanks,

Interesting Theory (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

AGLA is a notariqon (kabbalistic acronym) of the phrase "Ateh Gibor Le-olam Adonai,"The Lord is mighty forever."

AGLA is used in its short form in a number of magical circle making forumulas. The Golden Dawn used it as the "God Name" of the North quarter in the LBRP, representing Earth, and in the GRP to represent the passive elements of water and Earth.


(IMG:http://z.about.com/d/altreligion/1/0/6/z/2/glossaryagla.jpg)

It's true that we need some sort of Authority in anything to use as a base and a guide but there's no point in sticking to to slavishly. After all, the magick we practice today (even for a ceremonialist) has its origins with the Golden Dawn around the turn of the 19th century. Yes they were based on older texts, but the format and context of how they are practiced were compiled together in this time. In fact, it seems to me that ALL ideas are constantly evolving.

So how does one decide who is an authority and who is not?

Dion Fortune's quote of "There is no room for Authority in Occultism" means to me that we must test and experience things for ourselves. We should question things and be open to the answers we get...whatever they are.

It does not mean you can just sit around and do whatever you want and call it magick. I mean I guess you can but it's probably not going to work.

Yes there are theories about how and why magick works but the fact is no one really knows for sure. Different magicians, coming from different models of reality, using different methodology can produce the same results.

Until there is irrefutable proof on how magick works, everything must be tested, rules must be questioned, authority must be broken. Otherwise, how are we to advance if we just do the same thing our predecessors did?

Siamese

Well Put.. I always believe in Innovation we cant just rest on our laurels .. I think Great progress has been made in the last few Decades .. Just look at what Crowley , Levi, Grant have Accomplished .. Look at the Advances with the Enochian System .. The list goes on