I'm relatively new to the serious study of magick. I've been reading some of the works of Aleister Crowley, Gerald del Campo, and other thelemists. After reading about thelema, I'm left with the distinct impession that magickal workings are, in practice, essentially useless. All of the claims of "magickal" happenings seem to be spiritual and introverted in nature. They seem to be a means to better understand one's self, much like buddhist forms of philosophy and mysticism. Here is what I want to know: What are the actualy practical applications of magick? Is it possible for magick to effect dramatic, tangible change in a subject outside of the practitioners own mind? What kind of changes can be observed?

I believe in miracles. I believe in dramatic magickal effects as well as subtle meaningful syncronicities.

Once, I made a pot of stew with four servings for my husband and I. At the time we were both broke and that was almost the last of the food. Three teenaged friends of our showed up. Knowing they were dumpster diving most of the time to eat, I offered them food. As I stirred and dished the food I thought over and over to myself, "Let there be plenty." Four servings feed five people two bowls each. There were left overs. And more left overs the next day.

I attended a Pagan Picnic in St. Louis in the late 90s. It was a muggy, hot, cloudy day. The elements manifested at the opening ritual. When earth was called there was a very warm calming sensation. Air was called and cold wind blew through the circle. Fire was called by Dana Eilers, author of The Practicle Pagan. The clouds parted and the sun beat down on us. Water was called. The clouds gathered again and it started to rain.

These are just a couple of examples. No fireballs or flying but it's magick enough for my life.

This post has been edited by Masery: Nov 6 2006, 03:12 PM

So you don't think that perhaps the recipe was just bigger than you initially thought?

No I'm sure. This was about a quart pot half full. It wasn't a hug tall pot. Just a small pot to make enough for two people.

I'm sorry. That's just a hard story to swallow. That you just said "Let there be plenty" a couple of times and that turned a bowl of stew into a gallon...even according to what I understand of the laws of magick, that doesn't make sense.

I belive magick is capable of doing anything as long as enough study and understanding and power is used. I have experienced practical magick, I have seen my mother heal a pet from lumonia, the pet was trashing aboute, dying, unable to breathe one evening, Mother healed it whit Reiki and in three days the pet was fine. It was a dancing mouse, two yers at the time of the ilness and she lived another year before she died peacefully in her sleep, and three years of life is wery good for a dancing mouse. I have experienced other things as well, and performed practical magick, but I belive that the bigger the miracle the more power is needed and the magician must be rather advanced to make it happen.

Edited to add this, also Cermonial magick, like Thelema was mutch developed for self development, Cermonial magick was performed by the rich elite. Witchcraft have always been more practical as it was developed for pepole to give them better lives on the hard material plane.

This post has been edited by Venefica: Nov 7 2006, 06:34 AM

Actually, this entire question is a part of my search for a "witchcraft" alternative. I've read two books on witchcraft (Cunningham's Guide for the Solitary Practitioner and Ravenwolf's To Stir a Magic Cauldron), and they both seemed like loads of crap. All of their exercises consisted of lighting candles and visualizing. I've always been of the opinion that if you have to imagine something, it probably isn't real. Is this what most witchcraft is like?

Well in most cermonial magick ou do as mutch visulisation as in witchcraft. Wicca a Guide to the Solitary practitoner is actualy quite good and was the first book of its kind that i read, it give a solid fondation for starting out in witchcraft, Silver Ravenwolf, wel...she get a fair bit of bad rewies on her books, I like some of the things she writes but not all. Creating what do not exisit is the wery essense of magic, that be creating a more spiriutal exsistance for yourself, or creating harmony in your home, to creatin a curse or for that matter reating good fortune. If you dislike the more loose systems of witchcraft that ou have read aboute you can try to read somthing aboute Alexsandrian wicca and its like, perhaps the more ritualised aprotch will suit you better.

You asked a question and I took my chances when I gave an answer. What one group says are the laws of magick doesn't make it The Laws of Magick. I've been consciously involved with magick since 1995 and know what I know from experience. What I have learned is never underestimate the power of will. And what each person wills is what they attract.

The hard part is understanding what we truely want because that is what happens even if we think our desires are leading us in another direction.

All the tools, all the chants, all the symbols are there to help set aside doubt and free the mind. Our will is the true power.

I also agree that it wasn't just me creating the outcome. There were a lot of hungry people there.

I've enjoyed reading your posts as well Venefica. Thanks for pointing out some of the variations in styles.

This post has been edited by Masery: Nov 7 2006, 03:08 PM

Then what are you here for? If you don't open yourself to wild possibilities, then your life experience will be confined to only 'logical' possibilities. Did you ever think that maybe what you expect to get out of magick is what you end up with?

The laws of magick are subjective on the surface. THe Objective aspect is at the very root of manifestation - that which is unmanifest must manifest. All things come to pass, eventually...

Also, what makes you think you understand the laws of magick thoroughly? Personally, I never assume i've figured everything out, or even perfectly understand what i have figured out - there are always deeper principles than what we know. If anything doesn't make sense, chances are you've got the wrong perspective. Broaden your mind a little.

peace

These two statements next to one another suggest a lack of spirituality in your perspective, if I may offer my own take on it. I could be wrong. ultimately, though, you're going to die, right? Probably, anyway. So, what will you take with you aside from your spiritual developement...? Material gain is temporary, but spiritual knowledge is the gateway to immortality.



Magick is mastery over the will's ability to manifest. The possibilities are litterally endless, and they expand as you progress. Originally my will could manifest a good night's sleep, intelligent thought, creative inspiration. Then I grew, and it was able to manifest synchronicity in my life. I grew some more, learned to suspend my sense of reason for moments at a time, and my will was able to manifest changes in weather, change a stop light from red to green prematurely, or channel inspiration to another. Lately I've been able to influence my own causal current to intersect with clients for my practice, meaningful lessons in the world around me, and open me up to new areas of my consciousness.

I've seen people change moods instantly with just a little energy, I've seen headaches disappear, a torrent of rain stop at a word, a dry day turn into a stormy one in under an hour, a barrier that prevented anyone with ill intentions from entering an ashram, a toothpick roll uphill on a tilted desk at the exertion of my will power. I've seen lots of things subtle and physical. I haven't witnessed what most would call a miracle, but then again, maybe I have and just didn't notice.

All of those things, and the accomplishments I have personally wrought, are pointless beyond proving that my consciousness and the world around me are not as seperate as I was trained to believe after i was born. The value of that understanding is beyond any other ability, even turning base metals into gold.

Of course, that's my own perspective, and others are more materially centered. There's no way to prove who's got the right idea and who doesn't, and really, it doesn't matter. Your own journey, what you learn from it, what you put into it, how it affects your ability to live life, that's all that matters.

peace

Imagination is the seed of creation. Most of the things we see around us are the result of imagination. There once was no such thing as cars or airplanes, someone imagined them and now they are real tangible things. The concept is similar in magic with the exception that an idea or intent is made to manifest through unseen forces rather than physical ones. I believe that the most simple example of this is the fact that imagination exercises used in psychology do have a direct impact on the ability to change ones self. With a little more work and intent this can be made to manifest change outside of the mind.

Have you read Magick in Theory and Practice? Remember that the occult is a science according to Aleister Crowley. However, Thelema has what they call doing a magical working without "lust for results." The idea is to see all forms of action as separate from results, and of course, you're right, this is a Buddhist idea, or maybe a Hindu one. Crowley mostly studied Hinduism rather than Buddhism.

As that may be, this is a hard mystery to figure out. What I believe happens is that there is an interaction between the Chaos and the Deterministic parts reality, producing a new deterministic part. This is definitely dualistic, and not Thelemic. The thing to remember is that each intent has unforseen results and that the deterministic flow is altered completely by each act of will. This creates a great deal of flux in one's foresight, and thus the reason people like me have a tendency to fall into madness. Remember to that the formation of intent and its release by the Will is very rare, in my view.

I feel the non-dual is good to remember, impossible to explain, and better left unexplored except in the rare moments it presents itself.

Ok. This is what I'm trying to clarify. All of those phenomena you described can be explained through mundane means or coincidence, except perhaps the barrier preventing people from entering a room based on their intentions. How do you know that what you experienced is not simply the result of coincidence? How do you know that magick caused it?

Bear in mind that I'm not trying to say that you're wrong. I'm just asking these questions so that I can better understand the subject. It's very difficult for me to accept things without a logical explanation. I question everything I see. I abandoned christianity because of it's illogical nature. I don't want to jump feet first into a new illogical dogma. I want to know what I'm getting into.

Thank you Masery, you made my evening better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/922.gif)

buddhasmash, nothing we say, will make you belive, yes sure you can sudderly see a dragon outside your kitchen window, but that could have been an halisunation right, almost anything can be explained as somthing else, but it halisunation, plasebo, self hypnosis, coninsidences, odd gasses, look hard enough and you can propably explain every magickal effect. Bt think of it this way, if a thing can be explained magickaly or scientifically, what make you so sure it is science that is correct? I might tell you why, becouse you have faith in science, and to belive in magick, you must have faith in magick. I to have my days of doubth, but then I rember what I have seen, what I have felt and what I have experienced, and I remeber my faith, and my frieand, faith, none can give you, but yourself.

Magick causes coincidence. Two things happen with a percieved causal relationship - we call it coincidence. Wether that means that I caste a spell for abundance and afterwards get an opportunity to make a lot of money, or I will for a bowl of soup to feed a family of people and it does. Either way its a coincidence.
Mundane means are the way the universe works. But what governs the apparent randomness of so many aspects of existence? Most mathematicians will tell you there is no randomness, just a system too complex to see the order in. Magick takes advantage of that system, the interaction between our consciousness and the universe.
I know that magick caused it because when the 'key moment' occurs to bring my magick into fruition, I know. it is silent knowledge, a sudden clarity that this action now will cause this reaction then. People who cast magick for love and then sit around at home waiting for their soul mate to knock on their door frequently end up either waiting forever or falling in love with the milkman.
Living a magickal lifestyle is about manifesting coincidence, among other things. It is using ones will to align a cause with an effect. Chemicals will act differently under different environments, chemical interactions can be affected based on the different energies applied to them - heat, radiation, light, etc. - the fact that under specific circumstance a particular event will occur, is simply consistent coincidence. Coincidence - root word, coincide, happening at the same time or in apparent relation to one another. How can you prove there is a relationship? How can you prove there isn't? I can produce consistent coincidences. Doesn't that make my magick as real as the reaction between vinegar and baking soda?



I'm not going to tell you you're wrong for wanting to hold onto logic - in fact, it's good to maintain that part of the mind. but, it's simply one part of the mind. Not all of consciousness is logical, nor is all of the world. There is logic and there is chaos. You can think logically or you can think abstractly, ad you should learn to balance the two. Part of magick is the ability to suspend your logic, your reason, in order to open up your mind to allow change to happen. Logic is for analysis and cognition, not creation - that requires creativity, which is something different.

The mistake so many people who would rather stick with science and logic make, is to devote themselves entirely to logic and reason while supressing creativty and abstract thought. You create your world. If you want one without magick, you'll have it - most people do. You can shrug off coincidence as meaningless, or you can apply your logic to analyzing the pattern of coincidence in your life. Assume that it is a phenomenon which happens - and, it clearly is - and approach it from that direction, rather than file it away as a pointless peculiarity of perception.

it doesn't mean to abandon scientific, logical thought - I apply the scientific method to all of my magick. I identify a phenomenon, attempt to reproduce it under various conditions, develope a hypothesis of it's functionality, and test and retest until I have a solid magickal theory. I check for corralories amongst the other theories I've read or developed, and test those. It's a process of expanding one's definition of logical thought. Is the belief that magick and coincidence are linked illogical? Isn't it more logical to belief in an inherent connection between all things? Isn't that what we're learning through pure scientific research now?

Abandon dogma all together. Scientific, religious, magickal, all of it. Don't go looking for logical dogma, dogma just means 'box of beliefs' and no matter how big your box is, it has limited space inside it. better not to have a box at all.

peace

I want to thank everyone in this thread who has entertained my curiosities. I deeply apologize if I offended anyone in the process. I've never had a knack for diplomacy.

I've decided that I'll give occult study a shot and see how it all pans out. I'll probably start with Chaos Magick. It just appeals to me.

One more question for you, Vagrant: What are your thoughts on the supposed connections between Magick Theory and Quantum Physics? I'm particularly interested in Einstein and Schroedinger's views that our expectations and mere observance of reality can effect change in a subject without direct physical intervention by manipulating a submolecular matter known as quanta. Do you think this is a possible scientific explanation for magick and other psychic phenomena? There I go with the logic again. I promise I'll try and do better. ;-)

Well, you know, there was a science fiction author, i forget which one, who once said, "Any sufficiently advanced level of technology would be indistinguishable from magic to the primitive observer."

i think that the brain is a truly marvelous peice of organic technology. It was developed and groomed over time to allow the human race, at least in our case specifically, to attain things no other life form on this planet has been able to do - with both our knowledge and our expanded consciousness.

I believe it is possible to explain every phenomenon in the universe, with sufficient understanding of the basic laws of reality. Quantum theory is promising in that regard, because it includes the element of synchronicity in our understanding. Think about how you pick up a pencil and write a letter. That's a very complicated action to make, if you pick it apart into all of the learning, creativity, previous conditioning, etc., that goes into it. The whole thing is magical in and of itself. But, you don't have to completely understand each step of the process in order to do it - it just comes naturally, something you just learned and are able to do.

I think magick is the same sort of matter - you don't have to thoroughly understand all of the mechanics behind it to get results, the results are natural. Quantum theory - comparative to neurology in the letter writing example - seems like it could be onto a theory of magick. Of course, a scientist won't call it magick, and once we understand it as Human Kind, it'll no longer be so mysterious and occult. At that point the occult will advance further, and science will again be slightly behind it, following up on the new theories that the broad minded thinkers of the age are already applying without all the dissection of scientific phenomenon.

if you look at the past, at the alchemists, the qabbalists, etc., you'll see that science tends to follow in the wake of the occult. There are always a few occult minded scientists who will take all this mystical theory and find out where it fits into the mechanical picture of the universe. This progression is totally natural, and more than that, totally inevitable. Progress is a force of nature, the central element in human consciousness, and so that's what we do. Perhaps its connected to the survival instinct ultimately.

magick is a placeholder word for science not yet understood. Our consciousness is capable of some fascinating feats. Telepathy, telekinesis, all magickal work, dreaming - these things are on the very cutting edge of neuroscience, and starting to break ground in the world of hard facts and impeccable data. It's only a matter of time.

peace

Hm, after having thought about something, I think it's worth sharing my own view of the relationship between abstract and logical thought. As I said, logic is a tool that shouldn't be discarded, but also shouldn't rule the mind singularly.

When you are putting a puzzle together, most people start by fitting the border together. After this, they start moving inwards towards the middle, occaisionally finding a few pieces that go together, before those pieces actually have a place in the puzzle.

Ruled by logic, one must start at the edge and work their way in. Each next piece must fit into the piece already laid down. This process is accurate, but slow. In order to accelerate it, the person putting the puzzle together must think outside the normal limitations of 'which piece comes next', and strive to see the bigger picture, allowing the pieces to come together within that more intuitive understanding.

Intellectual progress is similar. Intuition keys you in to the insights that will expand your knowledge, logic will help to analyze and apply those new insights, and both of these tools are empowered by the ability to suspend reason all together and take into account wild possibilities.

However, without reason, intuition and chaotic inspiration are too unwieldy to operate by - actions are rendered inert by their disconnection from one another. Logic is about continuity, chaining together ideas and actions in a way that makes them effective.

If you recieve a mystical insight through intuition, it can be applied before you fully understand it. if you think about it, technology and science are the same way - we often apply principles that we don't understand before they are 'connected' to the rest of the puzzle. But, by applying it, we are able to begin expanding that 'puzzle piece' outwards until it does meet something already established as part of the greater knowledge base.

All that's a little fragmented, but it occured to me after the last post, while watching an episode of dexter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif)

understanding the purpose of each aspect of consciousness makes the whole process of being conscious far more effective, so far as my experience leads me to understand. There are even categories beyond the ones mentioned, and all of them can work in tandem to understand a single concept. The better we understand the place and process of each aspect of our intelligence, the more completely we can grasp the significance of a particular concept - logical, intuitive, emotional, abstract, the list goes on...

peace

Well Buddhasmash, what I think you're getting at is interesting. But, if the world is mechanistic, meaning that it works according only to physical laws, then it is purely deterministic as well. If it is purely deterministic then there is no free will. My suggestion is to stop thinking in terms of what part of magic you're going to study, and just pick a few good things and go through them. Modern Magick, The Magician's Workbook by Tyson, Liber Null and Psychonaut by Peter Carroll, Nightside of Eden by Kenneth Grant, The Book of Thoth and Magick in Theory and Practice by Crowley. There are better ways to learn than reading, but that kind of material is going to get you playing ball. It's not that hard. Perhaps it's simply not in the deterministic cards for you to do that.

Why does the idea that the world works entirely off of physical laws make the world determinstic? Why is there an absolute correlation between the two attributes?

How can there be a physical law that creates freedom? If all is Law where is freedom? It's a mechanistic Universe you're talking about, right? Honestly, a great deal of scientists believe in this form of determinism. Buddha believed in a different form of determinism. Just a thought.

There can be freedom within law, as long as you work within the parameters of the law. Take a computer, for instance. A computer operates off of physical laws, but you can bend those physical laws to your will with creative coding methods. If the nature of reality is indeed mechanistic, then who's to say that the same methods can't be applied? The existence of physical law doesn't phohibit me from following my free will, it just stops be from doing wildly outlandish things like morphing into a platypus. I have to reject the idea that the presence of law entirely precludes free will. I live in America, which has a rather authoriatarian government by my standards, but the presence of those laws does not eradicate my free will. It simply places parameters on it.

This post has been edited by buddhasmash: Nov 8 2006, 03:03 PM

i'm sure, that there is no magick as you imagine.it .. in this universe.... for you

This post has been edited by ZenMusic: Nov 8 2006, 03:03 PM

And what, exactly, do you assume that I imagine magick is?

Let us not be testy, he came whit a fair enough question. The roblem is I dont think we can answer it for him, he must answer it for himself. What I recomend buddhasmash is that you find a practice you like and start practicing, if you after a good while feel nothing and have gained your faith, perhaps at least for now you have to stick whit the magick of sience. Only yourself as I said can convince you, we can not do that.

Here is your answer simply:

1) Magick is the act of consciously making electromagnetic connections between inner imaginings - and outward manifestations of these.

2) Magick must work with and alongside of the laws of nature - not as we know them - but as they are. Gravity, inertia, e=mc2 and so on.

3) The point of three is that change is inevitable and constant. Magick is causing change to occur in the manner that you determine or see fit. There are some fundamental laws that cannont be broken - though they can be bent. You cannot make a lump of gold appear before you without there being gold somewhere in the universe already. Nano theory shows us that eventually we will be able to use garbage to make anything we want - a good enough magician could also do this - but it would take an extreme training of consciousness and will (brainwaves/electromagnetic energy) - this sort of power would take years and years to develop.

4) Spirit = energy (hint hint). Magick must be an internal spiritual process if it is to result in external physical manifestations.

5) Most people who attain physical manifestations recieve them in amazing coincidences. And like the first person to respond it can be as simple as thinking a few words if the will is associated enough with the thoughts. Here is an example of my own non ceremonial magick magick that achieved a defenite result.

"Demian" is a novel by Herman Hesse which is famous for its subconcious tuning of the will - it subliminally teaches magick. Israel regardie, Dion Fortune, and Aleister Crowely all reccomend it. Anyway heres my story.

At one stage when i was about 21 i had a real gambling problem. I was 8 weeks behind in rent. I had till tomorrow to come up with the money or i would be evicted. A few weeks earlier i had borrowed :demian: from a friend and decided that today i would begin to read it. After a time of reading the book i realised quickly what the book was telling me. I went to a friends house for dinner and told my friends who were aware of my dilemma that i was going to finish reading the book that night, go to sleep and dream about winning back my rent money; then i was going to wake up and go and gamble my last 50 dollars and win back my rent money. I got home and had read almost all of the rest of the book when i thought to myself; now i will go to sleep, i will dream about winning all my rent money back; then i will gwet up in the morning read the last 5 pages of the book, thwen go and win the money.
I went to sleep. That night i dreamed that i won $500 the next morning, i woke up the next morning and read the last 5 pages of the book. I walked in to town and bumped intop my friend whos house i had been at for dinner last night. I asked her to come with me to the pub. We went and i put my last 50 dollars in the machine. On the second spin i got free games which won me $860 which paid all my rent back and gave me a little extra to.

Sure it was just a coincidence you idiot. If you are stupid enough to believe that that was just a coincidence then i am an afghani refugee woman.

Right now i am in 6000 dollars debt. I am going to go and do ther same thing again!!!!

That was a great, informative, well thought out, and convincing post...right up until the end there when you decided to lower yourself to name calling and implying that I'm a stupid person. I don't understand why people like you and ZenMusic are getting so testy here. I'm not saying that any of you are wrong. I'm just questioning you so that I may gather information. I suppose the occult web circles aren't impervious to the common internet flamemongers. I'll just move on to an occult community that isn't quite so hateful.

Magick to an extent, must surely be every individual person or Magi's view of it. Theories are propounded of course but then there is the working that is intensely personal to each one.

Study the differences between "Witchcraft" and "Sorcery", you'll understand better.