I've read in many places (especially Wicca and Neo-Pagan related) that the 3-fold or 10-fold laws are very real. Yet again in other places I read that it was an invention in the 1970s and is only bogus to scare people.

But im always neutral in such matters so i've no say.

What do you think?

i believe in cause an effect in magic it may not be what one thinks, as in the laws of magnetizm for example not every thing is black an white there are many reasons, circumstances, an a lot of other facters, think astrology.

i think the 3 fold law is very final an restricting though perhaps somthing to live by, i think it helps you think about what your doing,why your doing it bla bla.

A logical response, I agree. I don't think any universal laws can be fathomed to be called 3 fold (all the time). Instead perhaps there is the karma, but not exactly 3 fold or 10 fold, sometimes it could be stronger and sometimes weaker. It seems to all depend on everything at the moment at the time.

I think while the three-fold law is a good thing to consider to put your motives into perspective, in all specifications of the rule its completely bogus. The threefold law is supposed to be about keeping the universe in balance, and um... getting what you give out times three isn't balance. While I give consideration to the aspect of karma, I think the threefold is a complete contradiction to itself, and was probably made as an exaggerated view on karmic law to keep all the rebellios little witches in line:P

I agree with Thorn.

I do myself know some pretty rotten people who never seem to get what some would call their 'just desserts' and of course as does everyone I know really decent people who get one problem thrown at them after another.

My personal modus operandi is don't do anything to anyone you wouldn't want done to yourself - unless of course they are intent on deliberately physically harming someone (or me), that I care about and then its all guns blazing.

Aye, with some research and my own logic, I agree that the laws are not correct.

They were created to limit the sheepish from the tools of magick used to enhance theirselves the best they could. There is no doubt about it, logic applied.

Note: there are spells and magickal workings which can attract negative energy (confused as karma, 3 fold law, etc...). However, this negative energy can be cleaned with a simple aura cleansing rite.

Death Stalker,

I'm very interested to hear what aura cleansing ritual you would use please?

I've tried a few but there are certain situations I need to be totally cleared from.

Thanks,

Litz

I'll pm this to you, since it would be off topic.

I could be wrong, and this may already of been said in a previous response but I'm in such a whirlwind of thought at the moment...
Anyways
I think the 3 fold law is simply a "myth" a superstition, I mean sure you cast a spell to make Tommy or Jane love you but there could be a consequence, that follows it. Theres a consequence with everything and karma follows every action performed. People should be prepared for the best and worst with a result. I'm still new to this, so I'm not quite sure.

I personaly dont belive in the threefold law. I belive it was made to frigtend pepole. I belive it is only real for those that belive it, or that have it in their paradigem so to speak. I also dont belive in an universal right or wrong. Right and Wrong, Good and Evil those consept wary from person to person.

Very true, I believe in the same things you believe. Evil is only true for those who see it, as is good. 'Tis all a personal thing.

I realy begun to belive that good and evil is relative when I heard this little story, I dont remember completly how it went, bt it was somthing like this.

A American hobby Christian and a Saudi Arabian muslim fundementalist met in the park. The two men got talking and soon the conversation turned to their wifes. "I love my women wery mutch." Said the Arabian man. "So I make sure they stay virturus, obey me and wear their vails, and if they stray from the path, I beat them." The American was shooked. "How can you do that to somone, and women as in several. I to love my wife wery mutch, I give her the space she need to be herself, love her and kiss her, and next month I am buying her a car so she can more easy get to her work." The Arabian looked at the American in utter horror. "How can you be so evil to your wife." He says. "As to let her stray from what is true and good, do you not love her, you must be evil." The American answer in kind. "No, no it is you that are evil, to keep more than one wife, restrict their freedom and even beat them, you do not love your wifes you must be evil." And they spend the rest of the day arguing who of them was evil.

Now one man was evil from the other`s perspective and while I personaly can quite clearly say who I agree whit, I dont think that one of them is more universialy right than the other.

I would like to use an analogy I found on www.obsidianmirror.com:
If I throw a French Fry at you, then you have to throw 3 pack, then I have to throw 9 back, and so on and so forth. The 10 fold law is obviously EVEN worse. Thats like me trowing one fry ant you and you throwing 10 back at me, then don't i have to throw 100 at you, then you throw 1000?? So thats my take on it.

Still using my fry analogy, I DO beileive in the Karmic law, because if I throw a fry at you, then you should be expected to throw one back...

I seem to agree with that logical approach moreso than what many religious beliefs have used in order to scare people, but remember...
depending on "who" the person is the consequences could be 3-folded, 10-folded, 20-folded, or none. Ghandi wouldn't attack his enemies...

Also note that many killers, thieves, kidnappers, etc... have gotten away with what they do and no one found out, due to good planning and wise decisions in their plans. Is a God or many Gods going to punish him? would they care? that depends on the personal belief, thus why I said the karma is what the individual makes out of it.

I think it can 1, 3, 10, 100, 1000 fold or any number really. I think it depends on the caster, the ritual, their intentions, any magickal beings involved and so on.

Remember seeing those cartoons where somebody takes a snow ball and rolls it down a hill and as it goes it starts to pick up more and more snow making a larger and larger ball? Well thats how I feel about magick. Only there are a variety of things that make the snow ball grow. Intention is one. If one intends to create a big impact than thats one factor. The next is the amount of energy actually put into the magick. Another is if one appeals to alterior source for magickal change i.e. Gods/esses, faires, dragons ect ect. These sources can make change in a big way that causes a lot of unintended consequences. But I think that only happens if the magician makes a crittical error in the workings - they omit a required sacrifice or don't have clear intentions for example. Then there is also the duration of the magick. A cartoon snow ball rolling down a hill will grow and grow until it falls off a cliff or is stopped my something. Magick can have a similar affect. Longer magick is meant to work the higher degree the consequences will be, positive or negative. Remember consequence is should not be understood only as a means of karmic retribution. Consequence simply means the aftermath of a magickal working - which could be either good or bad. Then this gets even more complicated because sometimes we think something bad happens and its a karmic backlash when in reality the "suffering" felt could be necessary for positive growth. And visa versa as well something good happens to build one up to be able to handle something bad yet to transpire.

I think the 3-fold law was originally a reflecting aspect/law which submerged from the "trinity". In psychology we learn that we are threefold in nature; that is, we have a self-conscious mind, a subconscious mind and a body. In metaphysics we learn that the three are but different attributes of the same life. The self-conscious mind is the power with which we know; it is, therefore, one with the Spirit of The One.

Applying psychology, once again, I believe that a non-believer of the karmic law will recieve no harm. For each spiritual realm reflects another realm (see my post on "different realms"), thus a logical discription of how the laws "may" apply, but not surely the reason, just my idea.

This post has been edited by DeathStalker: Nov 30 2006, 06:47 AM

Balance is a part of everything.

True

Yin-yang (male/female aspects of our souls, dark/light, Causal/Acausal, sun/moon)

After doing some research on the Vudon religions of Africa, I came up with a reasoning against my prior beliefs on the Karmic laws.

Within the voodoo society, there are no accidents. Practitioners believe that nothing and no event has a life of its own. That is why "vous deux", you two, you too. The universe is all one. Each thing affects something else. Scientists know that. Nature knows it. Many spiritualists agree that we are not separate, we all serve as parts of One. So, in essence, what you do unto another, you do unto you, because you ARE the other. Voodoo. View you. We are mirrors of each others souls. "God" is manifest through the spirits of ancestors who can bring good or harm and must be honored in ceremonies. There is a sacred cycle between the living and the dead. Believers ask for their misery to end. Rituals include prayers, drumming, dancing, singing and animal sacrifice.

I have come to believe that If we all are as "one" energy and are reflections to ourselves (which completely makes sense), then what we do does come back to us, when? we don't know, to what extent? again, we don't know, but it eventually will come back to us.

This should answer the question to "But he/she did harm to the other yet recieved no signs of pernicious karma", that will most probably happen later (perhaps afterlife).

And this is my present conclusion on the matter, until proven otherwise.

-DS