Just wondering. They are after all the true creators (I'm playing along, never tried any of the necronomicon).

Well, like I said I'm playing along here, but all things said, if you read the texts of Ancient Babylon the "gods" (Enli, Enki, etc.) were nothing for us to be proud of- they made us as slaves and cattle basically. How different from Tiamat and her offspring who actually created and wept for the loss of life- her children who SLEW her. Remind me of the Monotheistic God of Judaism or Christianity, not the monstrous serpent of chaos the OTHER side paints.

Also, I like a winner. If according to your theology Enlil,Enki,Marduk,etc. can't even contain a few offspring of Tiamat and she is not dead but lying in wait for vengeance.....who do you think I'll side with?

So I suppose u relish in the possiblity to serve the Gods that await ur destruction? Enjoy the eternal infernal sodomy! ENKI and MARDUK have helped raise the human race--they are helping in our Evolution....so choose ur side pal---Evolution or destruction.....

Early of ages
When nothing was
There was neither sand nor sea
nor cold waves
The earth was not found
nor the sky above.
Ginnungap was there,
but grass nowhere....


and it all shall go back to the void...someday, according to the words of your own deities. But hey, I'm not a pagan or an occultist, just having a casual discussion here on this. If I had to choose a side I'd go for Tiamat, chaos, darkness, bliss. No pain, just the calm sea churning forever in eternal calmness. As it was before.

OK, suit urself................I tend to enjoy life.

It's really a case of two completely different points of view. Anyway, any of you actually tried summoning from the Urilla text?

It is a valid question that I think should be thought out more.

Simon says in gates



Doesn't sound like he is advocating to "serve" any Gods.

Again I'm not a pagan, but if I take this point of view, I'll have good old Nergal having me eat dust in the underworld after a life of being a slave on earth for Enlil/Enki/Marduk/etc. I prefer chaos. Stillness. The end. Oblivion. The vision of the ancient of days.

and thus, I would serve the ancient of days. Their vision is more ethical, they are more powerful, they were the first. The other "gods" are merely usurpers and the enslavers of the human race. That's the truth according to the holy texts of Babylon.

I'm not a pagan though- this is just an interesting argument I'm having with you guys on what side I'd take if I believed in this.

dude how many times have you said you are not pagan in this thread ;-) .

Well you have free will. choose whose side you want. You can only be shown the doors and whats behind. its you who chooses which door to go through ;-)


Well if you ever work with the ancient ones, post some of your experiences ;-)

mystick

This post has been edited by mystick: Nov 21 2006, 11:24 PM

First, Tiamat didn't create the world, it was created from her body by the "usurpers". Thus the ancient ones hate us with a passion because we are the offspring of those that defeated them, and were created from their dead (sleeping?) flesh. Thus they want nothing but our complete annihilation.



Second, "pagan" referrs to the follower of an earth religion. It would be improper to refer to those who worship in the Sumerian tradition as pagans. If you are a member of one of the "normal" organized religions, then "heathen" would be the proper term.

Third "ancient of days" is a Christian term referring to Jesus Christ/the Christian Godhead of Father/Son/Spirit, it is not used to refer to Tiamat.

Fourth, although Nergal took Ereshkigal as his wife and queen, it's clear from Sumerian that Ereshkigal is the one in control of the underworld, Nergal did not become its ruler, just as Ereshkigal does not rule over his sphere of War just because she is his queen.

Lastly, I might suggest that you serve whatever god you worship with all your heart, or you will end up in Irkalla, and you'll be doing far worse than eating dust because of your rather arrogant and abrasive attitude towards them.

If no one noticed Tiamat is continually rising from several months ago.

This topic is more suited to the Fight Club. And thus it will be so..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/egypt1.gif)

Well, for starters I'm playing along here. I'm a big fan of the old mythologies, yet I believe that 99.9999999% of what we seem to have on the Babylonian religion is secondary sources or reconstructionism (try reading Gilgamesh in completeion....pofff, completely impossible. What we have are a few worm eaten rags and manuscripts written by Greek and Roman outsiders). Second if you ask me, if you want to be a heretic and/or a pagan, why would you trust what the MAN tells you to believe? As William Blake once said "Black is white, and white is black". I for one would rather side with the first Gods, the old ones, the powerful raw power deities who know more than their arrogant offspring. Who won in the end at the battle of Ragnorak?

The Aesir?

Nope. It was Surt with his fiery sword of destruction and chaos who ended the cruel world of ritual hangings and sacrificed babies (ie: the Norse religion if allowed to continue until a fictional Ragnorak). I see people here worshipping Hadad, Moloch,Osiris.....these "gods" had their followers sacrifice their children as food for them, enslaved the human race into perpetual war, had them engage in unspeakable acts. Hey- old Mardie had the Carthaginians torch 500 babies every time they lost a battle (and they lost the punic wars by the way, I'm so glad about that), but I guess that's not important. Tiamat is an image/metaphor of the overthrowing of the evil status quo, an image of the serenity and peace of the nothing, of the dark. blissful silence. She only hates those who disturb the silence to infest it with evil.

and here's a thought the babykilling Babylonian priest who wrote the Enuma Elish didn't want you to think about- we are the flesh of Tiamat imbued with the blood of Kingu, we have the demon king's blood in us and are groomed to vanquish the false gods who enslave us. We are her children. Doesn't that sound interesting to you? The so called "gods" are weakling usurpers at best.


AGAIN, I am *not* a pagan, I'm just discussing the contradictions in your theology....

You say you can't believe what man tells you to believe then you go off spouting about how "these "gods" had their followers sacrifice their children as food for the enslaved the human race into perpetual war." Where you there or did you read this bit of history from?... man? Or better yet did these Gods pass this history down to you. You can't have it both ways.

Where did I get this information? What are you talking about, don't you know that Baal (ie: Marduk) was infamous for child sacrifice :

http://ancienthistory.about.com/gi/dynamic...dsacrifice.html

First Moloch, horrid King besmear'd with blood
Of human sacrifice, and parents tears,
Though for the noyse of Drums and Timbrels loud
Thir childrens cries unheard, that past through fire [ 395
-Milton, Paradise lost Book 1

and that the deities of the norsemen required equally disgusting practices from their servants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_at_Uppsala


that hardly sounds good. If a babykilling prostitute marrying Babylonian false prophet "priest" tells me that these are the good guys I will have to doubt their version of the story.

Oh and you do know Paradise lost is a epic poem written by john milton, not a factual text right?

Why choose sides? Thats what I could never understand about any religious concept. One must decide to be on one side or the other? I say f%*! sides. If the Gods want to protect us and facilate our existance then fine let them do that and I will honor and respect that. But one thing I've noticed about some religions is that they require obedience to what ever gods with some kind "obey or else" clause. Why should I obey a god? If I don't he/they are supposedly going to smite me or cast me into hell but then again living in servitude to me is hell!! If I was given freewill and the ability to live my life the way I want and some God didn't want me to live the way I do then why did he give people freewill? Then if I don't obey but rather join the "dark side", so to speak, I'm just as damned its double wammy either way. And regardless if I except the dogma of one set of Gods as apose to another I'm just as much a slave to service. What kind of existance is that? I'd rather go to the abyss then exist as a slave to some dogma. I say f%*! it. If some God wants to damn me for living my life the way I feel brings about the most good then that God better prey I never rise from the eternal flames to exact some revenge for being such a self-serving tyrant.

When it comes to the end of the world by the hands of the Gods I don't think I will have much sway to it. And what happens if the alledged "good guys" loose? Then all that servitude was useless! Ahh bah humbug.

Yes dist, I know paradise lost was written by Milton, I just love that verse- sort of captures the horror. Acid.... well, I really think that if you don't side with the creator your making a foolish choice. Whether you like it or not somebody is deciding what to do with you after you decease, so it is a good idea to understand his reason and aid him in it. After all he knows better anyway. I also think that opposing a tyrant (whether the Man says he's the good guy or the bad guy) is a key part of this. Why? Simple- the creator cannot be evil. That's gnosticism, the one heresy I know 100% (not 99%, but 100%) is false.

Indeed. That is what Simon was saying in "Gates of the Necronomicon." Which was drastically different from his theory of the social role of the magician in dead names. Which is why I enjoyed Gates more then dead names. I wouldn't trust simon as far as I can throw him though. However I think he has some interesting points relevant to this debate. After he tells the story of the war between Gods he goes on to say




Then he goes on to say the Gods tought humans about there orgins and the war that happened and the malevolent monster in the ocean. Then he goes on to say...





A very dire interpretation of the the Necronomicon and the mesopotamian indeed. Very different take on the Nec then the order of the Necronomicon that frequents this board has (I am still waiting for their review of gates).

But one could also say (if they were a christian) that these meopotamian Gods that taught man this are fallen angels trying to deceive man. Which is what I think our friend r9999 was hinting at. Since I think he in some way sees the war simlar to the one in heaven in the book of enoch only the fallen angel archetypes won the war in this version.

Simon goes on to say at the end of this chapter in Gates..





First and formost simon answers the question asked at the beginning of this post. he says "Immortality, not Death for a Good Cause. Once we have defeated Death and discovered the path to Immortality - that is, once we are all truly free - then we can look around and ally ourselves with whichever of the Powers we deem sensible and profitable." So he says if you feel it profitable for you go ahead and ally yourself with the acient ones. But what does it mean to be truely be free?

This post has been edited by distillate: Nov 22 2006, 07:31 PM

I'm not siding against any creator but I'm not going to let some "rules" set out by man and not god rule my life. If some God wants me to obey him he should come beofre me in person face to face with none of that hoky stuff and say "hey look man I'm a good guy you're a good guy so here are the rules". I just think its silly to try and convice people of one "true way" when people have freewill. If a god wanted people to live by his way then he'd never have created freewill. I mean whats the purpose of freewill? Its like a sick joke if all it means is that so many people will go to Hell simply because they don't follow some "righteous" path. Whats the point of even being human? we might as well as just enslave ourselves to machines... never mind about that. And what is "evil" anyways? I think its evil for a creator, weather he is the good guy or not, to punish good people who don't obey his/her rules, be it out of choice or ignorance.

Ahh f%*! it I'm going to the bar.

You got my point, yet I don't really think they won the war. The Enuma Elish (along with other texts) seem to reverse the order of things in the bible. Eve and her offspring- particularly her seed ,the Christ (represented by the Babylonians as the maiden of Life Tiamat) is in that old epic defeated and decapitated (the fate of Satan in the Bible- serpent's head bruised by the woman). In the Babylonian version, the Maiden of life, the primordial source is the dragon, and not the other way round. Notice also the metaphor there- He (Satan, here represented by the Canaanite God Hadad) will grab the corpse of the maiden of life (the "feeble" realm of God descended from Eve- mankind) and make a kingdom out of it. Well, it is biblical that Satan is Lord of this world and that is precisely his intention. As above so below. The marriage of heaven and hell- a world where he has triumphed over the woman, defied the divine prophecy, and made a kingdom out of the corpse of God's creation.


My interpretation. I view it from the lens of my religion obviously, though there are many ways to view these myths. I just find it strange that Elijah and Jesus Christ equated a Canaanite god (Hadad/Baal) with Satan (Matthew 12:24) and labored hard to get the priests and worshipers of this false deity executed. There's something there.

Well I think the majorty of the old testment may have been written by a cult that worshiped Enlil. Enlil was not enamored by humankind and was all in favor of allowing it to be destroyed. Enki, however, was the one who "spoke" to Noah and saved the human race (according to summerian tablets, but the old test has a different story). I think if you study the tranliterations of the sumerian tablets and the war between Enlil and Enki over mankind you will veiw the old testament differently... or not. the summerians could just be deceivers (as you already made up your mind that they are).

There's a problem with your theory though. Here it is- EL is a hierogram just like Allah currently is in the middle East. There was never one Eljust like there never was one Baal, or (technically speaking, if your from the middle East you will know this) there is no "one" Allah- it's just a generic word for God. So you need to distinguish the Canaanite Religion (which developed completely different customs, practices and theology than the Hebrews) from the religion of the OT. There's even a psalm dedicated to this issue (distinguising El from the Babylonian/Assyrian/Canaanite/Akkadian Enlil). I won't deny similarities here and there though, but I think this goes back to the issue of pre-diluvian civilization (watchers,etc.), and post-diluvian Babel (Babylon). Maybe the Canaanites due to Nimrod's idea of building an occult center to try to reach God (the tower of Babel) developed a corrupted version of the Hebrew religion (which would explain why Elijah had all the priests of Baal executed after seizing power, that and their orgiastic practices of killing children and so forth).

Number one, what is your agenda here?

Number two, you seem to be trying to prove that the Ancient Ones are really the True Angels of the Almighty Ones Kingdom. All I can say is this:

GO TRY THE URILIA TEXT OUT AND SEE WHY WE ALL STAY AWAY FROM IT!

Number three, u have to see that all mass killings in the name of GOD (or whomever deities are at position of power) are the trickery of politics. It always falls into politics when it is broken down. Destroy the conquered spirits and make them part of the new kingdom. That is why Temples of the Conquered Gods are always destroyed--weakens the opposing parties spirits.

Plus, the bible was written by men influenced by emisaries of ENLIL--well at least the Old Testament. We are considered as slime to the God of the Old Testament--sounds very much like whta ENLIL thought of us. Then suddenly GOD has a change of heart and is kind and benevolent. Well that seems to be when ENKI took over and tried to inspire people to rise instead of scaring them into submission.

But that is not based on any texts though(which I'm very sure u all willl be sure to remind me of!).

I disagree. I have no agenda by the way, I'm discussing a few ideas I had though. Also, I'm not attempting anything in the Necronomicon, and if I do I'm an idiot because I know I'll get punished for it, for being willfully ignorant. I do think one thing though- how can you be so certain those good entities your so fond of in the Necronomicon aren't just as bad as the Urilla text entities- but their hiding it on purpose so you adopt a cosmology which will end up destroying your soul in a far worse way than any demon from the desert winds of Sumer could ever do to your body. Hey, Lucifer does appear as a child no? So different than those low level presidents and knights who appear as monstrous beings from the depth of hell. Hence the danger. I never said anything on the ancient ones being the holy angels or whatnot- I'm attempting to think outside the box here. If a Babylonian priest who spent his time sacrificing children and drinking wine with prostitutes says to me that the old ones, Tiamat, etc. are evil beyond description and wish for my annihilation I must question his version of the story ("you shall know them by their fruits").

Well, Im about done dealing w/ the brainwashed Christian................u look at things in a very 2 dimensional way, never "stepping out-side the box" (as u say). Take the blinders off bro, there is more to this place than JC told u all---and wisely so, most folks cant handle the facts. We are born of the demons but given life by the Angels.
The reason in your bible magick is demonized is the abusive way some people have used magick. So, like what everyone does these days, lets make a blanket clause and say all magick is bad--even though our "Lord Jesus Christ" used it--those were miracles instead--OK.

There's no need to be rude. Like I said, I just like considering all possibilities, no matter how improbable. Also, your saying Enki is identified as Satan and that I the evil "brainwashed christian" will thus diss him. Actually, Marduk is identified as Satan in the OT. I know the thesis here- the Jew's high prophet supposedly got angry that nobody was worshiping Enlil anymore and so they tricked the popular priests of Marduck into a meeting and killed them all.

I don't buy that. I think the OT God is not and never will be the Canaanite Enlil. Two different Gods. Different, apples and oranges. It's my opinion though, and if you can give me irrefutable proof that El of the Hebrews=Enlil of Babylon I will reconsider it. I just don't buy it though, the creation in Genesis is the story of a single purpose driven God molding by himself fearlessly, all powerfully beings to suit him for worship. So different than the Sumerian/Babylonian epic of creation where a pantheon of Gods appear from a mongrel chaos and then after slaughtering each others off have a specific one become king despot and divide the Cosmos up into pieces greedily. Just my thoughts. This is an interesting debate.