So, this topic is intended to be a battleground for the various viewpoints on what magick is - do you accept a reality of Deities, Spirits, and beings outside yourself on a hierarchy of power that you are destined to either climb or fall short of? Or do you believe in a reality where the mind can use whatever structure it needs in order to manifest apparent results? Are those results caused by a literal magickal energy which effects change, or do we 'psych' ourselves into expecting and accepting the results we get? I want to focus largely on gods and entities, and their existence as objective reality or subjective enforcement.

I'm not arguing to the validity of magickal practice - if it works, it's valid. Rather, I intend to gather some opinions on what it is that's really happening when we do magick.

To start off with, here's what I think about a few things.

First of all, I can't deny that magickal things happen - a successful spell, a warped reality trip through my mind, prophetic and meaningful dreams; it's all pretty magickal to me, so for me magick is certainly real. What I have always had issues with, and honestly some rather ambivalent experiences with, are spirits and Gods, 'Beings' which imply a hierarchy within the total spiritual sphere. But, this model of gods, spirits, etc., smacks of mythology to me.

In following a magickal tradition, we're told that certain formulae of symbols and symbolic acts - often interpreted as literally causing the magickal 'effect' in question - and so in many cases, they do. When it fails, we're told we didn't believe enough, didn't have the focus, or the power, etc. But, every tradition gets some results from someone. Take chaos magick practitioners especially, who simply slap together some compatible, and sometimes incompatible, traditional tidbits and turn them into workable magick.

So, clearly the magickal tradition itself isn't what's getting the results. But, if this is true, then what about the mythologies that those traditions base much of their philosophy and practice on?

At first I was thinking that perhaps individual 'deities' were nameless forces in the universe personified in order to explain how they interact, giving them personalities and functions supporting the understanding of those systems. Take the interactions between God and Satan as a classic example that i'm familiar with - Satan representing the force of corruption, the natural tendancy for man to have and give into base desires, etc., and God or perhaps more specifically 'Christ' representing the Transcendent nature of man in opposition, in which he desires to do good works, etc.

But, that's on the subjective projection side. So, I tried to consider the place and possible role that any deities have in my life. I'm fairly educated on the pantheons and most of the basic principles that the greek, hindu, roman, egyptian, and babylonian/sumerian gods, so I would expect them to have made the influences in my life that might have had divine origin, given that they are who I am familiar with. Looking at every immediately obvious movement of my life, and then digging into the mundane patterns, I attempted to fit several deific 'personalities' into place, in order to divine their possible influences. Naturally, i was able to identify the possible influence of a couple of dozen different deities from different pantheons - mars/ares in my martial fascination and possibly the domineering and agressive personality of my adolescence. Mercury in my communication and expression tendancies. Bast in my temperment and fascination with the mystical feminine principle.

I have also had some very convincing experiences with the necronomicon entities, from the fifty names to the Elder Gods and a few nasties from places I haven't been to on purpose. They were frightening experiences and affected me in a very real way - yet, by analyzing my experience I can see that the weaknesses taken advantage of, and the elements that were 'presented' to me by positive entities, ultimately were all psychological.

So, do I conclude through all of this that there are many many gods, that there are only some gods with many names, or that there are no gods beyond the governing devices which my mind creates in order to handle my experience and growth in a more versatile manner?

Now, I'm a believer in a flexible reality, which can be individual for everyone, and that necessitates the acceptance that if gods are real for YOU, then they must be real FOR YOU. But, there is an objective aspect of the universe, even of the Source, that is too complex for us to totally understand or grasp. IS the universe ultimately objective, but so vast that we can see any part of it we want without knowing what it really is? Or is it subjective, becoming whatever it wants, and therefore, whatever we want as a part of it?

I have been in the presence of two 'Gods' from differing pantheons, and they made a mark on me at the time. They were intense experiences, not because of their power, but because of their insightfulness and what I gained from them. But, they both occurred while I was involved with their respective pantheons, and are principally similar. So, did those deific forces pick that time to appear to me, or did my mind pick up on the opportunity to utilize a principle understood subconsciously in order to illuminate other principles in my consciousness?

It gets down to an age old question, "Is it real, or in my head?" But more importantly, is either belief ultimately limiting? If we accept that magick is a psychological device to instigate psychological and spiritual growth, are we taking away from what it is? It's still an impressive and complex process.

If you do worship gods of some sort, what engenders your loyalty to your pantheon/God? Why worship at all? Why devote oneself to a higher being, if there can be no validated proof of that beings objective existence? Are you worshipping a principle, knowing full well that you personify that principle in order to worship it? Do you feel that God will grant you something in return? Do you feel that such boons come from the Gods themselves, or that we use their presence in our paradigm to justify the gains we receive?

I realize this is scattered and perhaps less organized than some of my other posts, but it's a very wide debate that I'd like to see take place here, regarding all together the philosophy behind magick's reality, especially regarding deities.

peace

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Nov 26 2006, 01:17 AM

not sure if there are gods per se, which is why I am a chaos magician right now. Yes I went through the OTO and Golden dawn training. YEs I have envoked monstrious beings. Yes I have taken mind expanding drugs for spiritual reasons. What have I learned? to adore people like Ghandi. To try to get the population on the right track no matter how far it is going to disaster.

This post has been edited by distillate: Nov 26 2006, 03:58 AM

Ghandi was a racist pedophile who lived a lie. Read up. Ghandi

It's not quite on topic exactly, but I think that it's good to devote oneself to an ideal, and in a way I think Ideals and Ideology are where Gods come from. We have the ability to personify and communicate with any thoughtform within the sphere of the Universal Consciousness, but i don't think that constitutes a being, with power, whom one must devote worship or adoration to. I'm not even sure one should worship the Source.

Thoughts on what it is that works in magick, though?

peace

Heres my opinion/belief/thoughts.

I believe in a single big god kind of thing that is within us all, and that we all are within. I believe that there are then two main types of entities, whether they be good or bad, who are involved in magick. One are intelligent entities created by the one big god thing that exist irrespective of human though or belief, and can be contacted and communicated with. The other type of entity are ones that are human creations. These require a certain level of human belief and will to sustain their existence within the collective consciousness or unconsciousness. I believe that one person "can" be powerful enough to sustain such an existence, but for most it requires the concentrated effort of a group of people (it is not necessary for this to be a conscious collaboration; the members of the group do not need be aware of one another). The powers of these second type of entitiies will probably never equal that of those entities whos existence does not rely on human thought. Yet while their existence is sustained by human thought it is possible for them to become sustained by belief from other entities. Maybe even the greatest consciousness. It may be possible for a human created entity to become one no longer dependant on human belief. Im not sure of this, its speculation, but it sounds logical.

I think the nature of magick though is, no matter what you call its manifestations, one of allignment (i tend to call it the allignment of vibrations). It is often noted by scientists that if you first breathe at the same rate as someone else for a while, so that your breaths are in synch, if you then change your own rate of breathing theirs will unconsciously and naturally follow your change. This to me is the nature of magick. So whether it is a psychological agent or a physical reality is just a question of frequency. The changes are only psychological if the rates of vibration do not extend beyond that of thought. If you are powerfull enough to extend the rates of your thoughts vibration into the realm of physical frequencies, then manifestaions will appear on this level. This is how jesus "healed the sick".

There are many principles to consider in all this though which are affecting everything. Like impermanence, vibration, rythm. I dont take it as law, but i think the kybalion is an excellent book to get a bit of perspective on this kind of stuff.

I think the real nature of the answer to your question is unknowable. Words tend to take us away from it a bit.

I believe these are manifestations of archetypes. An archetype like a diety is the personification of a force of nature in its perfect or greatest form. A demon is the personification of "darkness", that which we may view as "evil" or inherently reject as a part of human nature (even though some may just be in denial). The forces of nature any archetype represent are real. There are any number of archetypes - demons, angels, super heros, various spirits, faires and more depending on different cultures. The magician works with archetypes to stir within himself the energies of these.

I think of the human body as a sort of manufacturing plant. It constantly creates energy to sustain itself. However it is possible for a skilled individual to tap his/her own "power house" to put it into varying degrees of overdrive. The variations depends on the magician's goal. Big goals require lots of energy. Small ones just the opposite. In order to do this affectively the magician developes a sort of kinship between a specific model of magick (even one personal that is made up). Archetypes are one way to tap a person's ability to produce energy.

Now the production of energy that is usable in any given magickal opperation is one thing. Actually applying that energy to one's environment to manifest desired change is another. This requires that any magician have at least some knowledge of the workings of subtle reality. To gain this knowledge pretty much requires a period of trial and error using different models of magick. The model that works the best is the one the magician developes a kinship with. This is where cerimony, altered states of mind, spellcraft, rituals, energy manipulation ect ect all fall into play.

Of course there are limmitations as well. To produce energy a magician must be able to fuel its production. Then they must also be able to retain enough to accomplish the desired goal. And as with any other factory, producing energy produces waste. So the magician must maintain the quality of their energy through regular purifications. Energy does exist in alterior sources [edit]things like stones, minerals archetypes, planets, animals, plants, even other people[/edit]. Again, however, the magacian must have the ability to manage it to use it. There are also limmitations on exactly what the magician can actually accomplish through magick as well. I believe that through practice a magician can learn to do wonderful things. But the greater the goal the more amount of energy is required and more energy creates volitility. That is the more energy one has to work with the more unstable it becomes and the harder it is to manage. It is possible to manifest something like winning the lottery but I believe to do so one would require the ability to tap an energy source so great that it would be very hard for a single person to control.

It is also possible that more than one person can work together to combine their energy within a "bubble" or ritual area- some place sanctified as "magickal" or sacred is ideal. The problem is competing wills. The only way this is really useful is if the desired goal is mutual between all parties. Otherwise there is no stability to the energy and it doesn't do what its suppose to.

And that pretty much summerizes what I can think of at this time.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Dec 5 2006, 04:57 PM

I have nothing more to say, Acid09 stole my words/beliefs from me. I truly agree with him. I work with the powers of Darkness and they are entities to me, and they are more realistic and helpful if my beliefs of them and my "connection" with them is stronger.

don't want to get too much off topic but I am very very curious why you have more of a connection with with darkness.

I'll tell you about one thing at least that I don't believe...and that is the idea that evoked spirits are a part of the evoker's own brain/subconscious. I think the reason why people want to believe that is as a means of mediating their own fear. Think about it, guys. Out of the two interpretations; demons either being real, living, breathing, external entities from the pit of hell who can possess you, drive you mad, kill you, or possibly do all kinds of other nasty things to you, or demons simply being entirely internal elements of your own subconscious...which of those two interpretations makes you feel more warm and fuzzy, safe, and comfortable? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) The idea of them being part of our own subconscious is wishful thinking, IMHO.

I do find it interesting, now that I think of it, that the real dangers of evocation are almost never mentioned here, or if they are, they're very briefly glossed over. I've seen a couple of references to the idea that the Necronomicon in particular is "dangerous," but elaboration on what dangerous in that context means almost never happens. There are occasional oblique references to someone either being found dead in their home, or needing to be carted off to a psych ward, due to "indeterminate causes," but the attitude of people in general online to such things, (not necessarily the people of this particular site) seems to be, "Gee, I guess someone forgot to wear their parachute. Better luck next time," after which they then go back to whatever else they were doing.

If this gets brushed off as being part of the territory, then that to a degree I can understand. There are various mundane dangerous sports (skydiving, abseiling, bungee jumping, mountaineering, etc) where the professionals at least who engage in them are aware of the risks, and accept them as part of what they do. However, I think it could be a positive thing here if a little more effort was perhaps made to warn newcomers of the potential hazards inherent in evocation in particular...because that way they can at least make an informed decision about whether such risks are acceptable for them to take. This I think is especially important when you consider that the very most dangerous aspects (demonolatry and such) are actually those which have the highest degree of potential appeal to teenagers.