I know this question may be some off, but is the Mesopatamian Goddess "Tiamat" the same as "Dagon" from the Necronomicon?

It is said that Tiamat was slain by Marduk, as I was doing research on Mesopatamian Mythology. From my understanding, Dagon was known as a female as well, if not, androgynous, but not fully a male Old one.

Is Tiamat really the same as Dagon?

I always felt Dagon was Cthulu from Lovecraftian lore. Another thing as well, I tend to think once u get to these deeper levels of the Ancient Ones male and female tend to converge more and more. It seems that sex means nothing to these entities as they seem to reproduce via other methods than we are aware of. Like spores or something like that.

In sumation I believe Dagon is Cthulu-----but then again there is this Therion song Dagon where Dagon is portrayed as female............see how this tends to become a merry-go-round? Did that make things clearer or more muddled?

Final answer: DAGON=CTHULU

Another reason why I believed Tiamat to be Dagon was the factor that they are both Sea Serpents (Dragons), and that in Lovecraftian lore (or Necronomicon versions) Cthulhu and Dagon are depicted as seperate entities.

Anyways, seems interesting because many people view Tiamat as a "helpful" guide and a good-bringer to humanity, whereas Dagon, being an Old One, clearly has other ambitions.

Tiamat in no way shape or form can be connected to Dagon. Here is one of thousands of sources which say Enki Oannes and Dagon are the same diety.

http://www.geocities.com/dominorus/oannes_2.html

Just Google ENki and Dagon to find more.

Peace!

Why does it say that Tiamat was slain by Marduk? Was Tiamat with the Old ones? It's just confusing.

Yes, in the Babylonian story of creation, Marduk killed Tiamat and made the earth from her flesh.

Tiamat was not just one of the Ancient Ones, she was THE Ancient One, that even the other Ancient Ones tremble at.

You're right.

From what I've come to from research...
The theogonies of the Mesopotamian cultures also contained entities which were usually not counted as gods but were sometimes considered more powerful than gods. Such entities were Tiamat, the mother of gods, which was identified with salt water, and Abzu, her counterpart, who fertilized her with his seed which is identified with fresh water.

It was said that Tiamat was killed by Enlil when she tried to avenge the murder of Abzu. From the dead body of Tiamat, man was created.

Where did you read that Tiamat was slain by Enlil?

Mesopatamian mythology

Most sources cite Marduk, but you will find that mesopotamian gods are often interchanged when the story made its way to a new city state or new culture (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

Greetings,

Yeah, it appears that Enlil was originally the slayer of Tiamat (called Kur in the earlier versions) and was replaced by Marduk later (8th C. BCE) in the Enuma Elish. This evidence comes from incomplete cuneiform tablets uncovered at Nippur that are several centuries older than the tablets of the Enuma Elish. Ashnook, you speak the truth, as with all other cultures names of deities were often interchangeable to fit political agendas. It should be noted that Enlil was the major deity of Nippur, thus his role as principle deity is to be expected.

Interestingly, in the Enuma Elish you can still find traces of the earlier myth.

As the fierce winds charged her belly,
Her body was distended and her mouth was wide open.
He released the arrow, it tore her belly,
It cut through her insides, splitting the heart.
Having thus subdued her, he extinguished her life.
He cast down her carcass to stand upon it...

Here is a slightly different version of the above passage:

And the evil wind that was behind him he let loose in her face.
As Tiamat opened her mouth to its full extent,
He drove in the evil wind, while as yet she had not shut her lips.
The terrible winds filled her belly,
And her courage was taken from her, and her mouth she opened wide.
He seized the spear and burst her belly,
He severed her inward parts, he pierced her heart.
He overcame her and cut off her life;

In both these passages Marduk kills Tiamat with the help of the winds. Among Enlil's epiphets is "Lord of the Wind”. So while Enlil was replaced by Marduk, his role is still present (albeit in a more symbolic sense) in the slaying of Tiamat.

Additional Note:

In some versions it is Enki who slays Kur in revenge for Kur swallowing Ereshkigal. Clearly the archetypal "slaying of the dragon" was a common theme in Mesopotamian mythology centuries before the Enuma Elish.

This post has been edited by Faustopheles: Dec 21 2006, 04:06 AM

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif)

The most ancient Sumerian myths say that man was created from clay,not from the blood of Kingu.

In Sumerian myth, Enki lay asleep in the depths of the primeval ocean, unable to hear the lament of the gods as they complained about the difficulty of cultivating wheat and making bread. Eventually the primeval sea, Nammu brought the gods' tears to Enki. Enki, as the god of wisdom, was expected to devise a solution, so he solicited Nammu and the birth-goddess Ninmah to use clay to form the first men, who would toil and farm so that the gods could relax.

This post has been edited by Enkidu: Dec 21 2006, 06:07 AM

Tiamat is described as a monster, and is considered the embodiment of chaos. Marduk, on the other hand, is destined to become the creator of the world, of order, and is charged with the task of vanquishing Tiamat. After driving the Evil Wind” into her body, he released the arrow, it tore her belly, cut through her insides, splitting the heart. Having thus subdued her, he extinguished her life /and/ cast down her carcass to stand upon it. Then the lord paused to view her dead body, that he might divide the monster and do artful works. He split her like a shellfish into two parts.Marduk then proceeded to create the world from pieces of her body.

I always seen marduk as the archetype in our collective unconsious that creates order from chaos.

Evil has always been associated with chaos, whilst good has been associated with order.

Those "gods" who were associated with Chaos were usually not looked upon as "the Gods" but as other kinds of monsters.

A good example of this is how Loki, Hel, and the other chaos "giants" of Ancient Norse Mythology are looked upon, as opposed to the Gods of Thor (Marduk) who slayed Loki, and Odin (Enlil) who is the father of all Gods.

I may have misinterpreted some of the names, but we are at accord with the meaning of chaos and order.

This post has been edited by DeathStalker: Dec 21 2006, 05:41 PM

When talkiing about the ancient gods and the elders simon says on pg 163 (of gates)



This post has been edited by distillate: Dec 21 2006, 04:48 PM

I was talking about ancient mythology in general, from Norse, to Greek, to Mesopatamian (Sumerian).

The "monsters" were ascribed as such because they were against the gods (who were associated with order).

I'm taking most of the information from Norse Mythology, and some things may be discrepant with the Necronomicon, but the the "Gods" and the "Good" are always those who are trying to keep intact the order of which exists.
whilst the monsters, associated with the "giants", were those who were inducing choas and dis-order.

Thor is an exception to the term "giant" as he was known moreso as a God and a defeater of the "evil Giant" Loki.

This post has been edited by DeathStalker: Dec 21 2006, 05:02 PM

Gretings 'DeathStalker,

I totally agree with Thor = Marduk. Odin however I would call Enki. Odin is the God of wisdom who gained his knowledge by drinking magick waters. Enki is the God of Magick and water.

Peace

To be entirely true to Scandinavian mythology,Odin is also pretty dark and is known for betrayal at the battlefield (case of Danish king Harald),very few Scandinavians ever named their children after Odin because of his dark aspects.He is a god of wisdom,magic and death.For me he is not similar to Enki.Too dark to be Enki.

That's true, Odin is very neutral, in terms of the light/dark conflict. I'm not sure about Enlil, but I thought he and Odin had the "father of all gods" concept in accord.

In my opinion Enlil is more suitable for Odin.Both have dark aspects and Enlil was credited as god of sorcery and incantations,again same as Odin.

This post has been edited by Enkidu: Dec 23 2006, 05:08 AM

All of this Enlil posturing is going to make me sick lol. I do not know much about Odin, but if he has a "father of the gods" aspect with a dark side, certainly Anu would fit the bill. Of course my opinion on the matter is rather jaded as I can not stand Enlil. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

You are right that Anu has dark side and does not care about humanity.According to myths.But why everyone has so much against Enlil (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Enki is the father of Marduk.

Odin is the father of Thor.

Enki is the God of magick.

Odin is the God of magick.

Enki is the God of the waters of wisdom.

Odin is the God of the waters of wisdom.

2+2=4

4+4=8

odin=Enki

One cant be all light and happy go lucky God of the Cold Dark North either---u know they had frost Giants to reckon w/? My point is--who do you know that is all holy and light always no matter what? No one--thats who! And if u say some Christian fellas name--I bet that person is easy prey ! These Gods are not easy prey by no means! So if ODIN had a dark side--so what--if he didnt then he would be quite imbalanced if u ask me!


So Edunpannas assertion the ENKI=ODIN goes down just fine w/ me.

If it doesnt for you fine---I have just this question---WHAT DOES ODIN HAVE TO DO W/ DAGON!!!!!!

I thought Odin received his knowledge by hanging from a tree?

I think you're mixing it with the serpent of the tree of knowledge.

This post has been edited by DeathStalker: Dec 27 2006, 11:39 PM

Greetings GMC Broom,

Odin left one of his eyes in the purifying waters of Mímir's spring in order to gain the wisdom of the ages.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/kicking.gif)

Greetings brothers and sisters...

Odin gained his knowledge of Runes from hanging nine days from a branch of Yggdrasil, stabbed with his own spear Gungnir. At the end of these nine days he had seen the runes (Futhark) and learned nine songs.

Odin lost his eye when he sacrificed it to drink from the well at the base of the world tree, Yggdrasil for ultimate wisdom. In return, he gained unimaginable wisdom and his remaining eye glows as bright as the sun.