In your dealings with the goetia, is there ever a time when something just turns them berserk?
How do they react to insults, disrespect and treating the whole ritual as a laugh?

I realize this topic has the potential to make me unpopular; (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tomato.gif) but if I ever get the chance to summon a goetic spirit, I don't want to screw anything up by accedentally insulting it.

Who would do such a thing? Just to get a reaction? I think there was a line in the bible, "Do no temp the lord thy god."

Only entities of the lower levels (i.e. closer to ours) will even react. Entities beyond the scope of ego will simply go away, or more likely will not come in the first place. Some entities will come even though you clearly don't respect their power, because they deal specifically with issues related to the condition you'd have to be in to act like that. Does that make sense? Whether or not the entity in question will even show up, depends largely on what condition your mind is in, and your energy.

Under the optimum conditions, you wouldn't need to goad an entity into doing something, because that would be counter to the state of mind.

If you make innocent mistakes, few entities will punish you in any way. Anger and taking things personally is something more specific to our existence than a universal trait of all consciousness. It's an ego thing.

Some particular entities, like a few of the darker godforms, demand unwavering respect. I was once kicked way from the feet of Enki when I made a move to be 'humble' in order to impress him, so that he would bestow a gift as the two before him had done, and allow me to go on to Marduk's throne, rather than because I really felt humbled. I was commanded to fast for a period of time before coming back to his throne, and contemplate humility.

But, even in that case, as in most cases with dealings toward entities, there was an object lesson in store, not a punishment. There is a difference. In that case, I was commanded to fast for seven days - one day beyond the limits of my body's ability to go without substantial sustanence at the time. The Lesson? My existence isn't that permanent, and I ought to respect the powers that be.

Try to work with good entities, they tend to be more compassionate. Darker ones, or evil entities, those that are out to make a profit of some sort, those ones generally need to be commanded with an iron fist - just as one should rule over the evil in oneself with such authority, but simply allow the good to grow as it will. see? In the end its all inside.

peace

Greetings!

(the sound of a very old phonograph needle scraping over a bakelite record)
It would make little difference to whatever spirit of the Goetia you attempted to bait in such a manner...
You wouldn't get any results! Flippancy is not a mindset that is conducive to spirit evocation. To what aim?
Evocation requires work. I have never, and I mean, NEVER heard of anyone who understands the process of evocation contemplate doing so with the attitude to cause discord or ridicule to the spirits involved ... with any success!
I guess there will be a first time for anything! From my perceptions, I'd hope that failure to communicate would be the end result but, gratuitously, I'd like to see the perpatrators ass kicked! *grin* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sport_boxing.gif)

Greetings 'Imperial Arts,

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac41.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/00000002.gif)

Usually, when the more intelligent folks, entities, or whatever you're dealing with are vexed, they ignore, for ignoring is a sign of intelligence. But then we have some lower entities, and even more immature people; usually younger, who will do anything to win a battle which contains a futile victory in itself.

As for trying to piss off an entity, I say, don't, because you'd be 1) wasting time, 2) ruining your rep with them.

How to piss off a demon.

1. Hold it down and fart in its face.

2. Wait until it is in the middle of some long boring speech about how powerful it is and then jam your finger up its butt.

3. Tape the demons picture to your dogs butt. After summoning the demon walk your dog around back wards in front of the demon.

4. When it shows up patiently wait for it to stop screaming then say. “Well now aren’t you sweet!”

5. Throw Holy Water at it.

6. Slap it on the rump with your sword.

7. Stand there with a blank expression on your face when it comes time for the License to Depart. When it asks what you are doing. Say. “I was thinking about yo mamma.”

8. As soon as it shows up start eating the sacrifice that you set out for it.

9. Take its picture and a black marker. Draw in a mustache and a dress.

10. After it gets angry because you did one of the first 9 Say. “You know you are a real whimp compared to my mother in law.”

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Your post really did make me laugh out loud. Hilarious stuff.. especially #5 and 8.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/00000008.gif)

I'm partial to number 7. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I guess one stupid thing to do is promise something as a reward and not follow through with it. I can't say those are pleasant experiences at all. Good lessons, though. They teach you not to be an ass (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

Shaking My Head



I believe some people here are asking for a Death wish. Pissing these Gods off is Not a wise thing to do. On top of that using the clavicle, and all the the things in the grimoires that abuses them.



Imperial you are just asking for trouble aren't ya, I Agree with all they said to you.

Imperial, if you really done all of this, then I would have to agree with all they said and done to you, and anybody else on this forum too.

This post has been edited by Edunpanna: Feb 18 2007, 10:40 AM

I see you are a new member. If you have joined only to be nasty to people then you can leave. If however you joined to be constructive then welcome. Either way comments such as these are not approved of. Please try and stay away from personal attacks.

How is that a personal attack?



All I did was agreed what happened.



So it's ok for others to attack supernatural beings, but if someone agrees what happens to the human that was bad then it's a attack? Wow

This post has been edited by Sparkles: Feb 17 2007, 09:23 AM

sparkles,

these are not Gods. They are demonized versions of them. If you know anything about how thoughtforms are constructed, then you should know that whatever is written about a God/dess they will tend to believe it. If it's written that Osiris actually died and ressurrected, then he will tend to believe it, even if he never really did die, since dying is a physical thing (of course he could have been a living person, but that's a whole other thread). The point is, it's been written (and believed by many) for hundreds of years that these "Gods" are in fact, demons. Whether it's true or not is beside the point. They act like demons, so they deserve to be treated like slaves.

If poke runyon gets a beautiful astarte showing up in his triangle when he evokes astaroth, goody for him, I'm sure she's nice. But everyone here knows that I didn't get her, I got the demonic version of her and I did expect to get astarte. I didn't use the hebrew names of God, and did show her a lot of respect, probably more than she deserved, leaving offerings and all that.

So what did I do wrong, sparkles?

I'm not attacking you, btw, I would just like to know about your experiences with these demons/gods/spirits, and why you feel they should be respected so much. Have you gotten them to do things for you, or do you just worship them?

Although attacking is not condoned, I see Sparkle's approach. even if she was not as eloquent as the rest of us does NOT give reason to discount her opinion. Even the heart of a child can overcome many things, and such simple judgment, in her case, I have found to be the most sound.



Very true. Study some of the entities OUTSIDE of the grimoire. After studying, send a sentry servitor over to observe the entity. Have it bring back the data, study it, take it in, and then discern from there what is the best course of action to take.

Noted.


Ok. You should have learned at that point to understand this isn't the type of entity to do this to. Coercement is NOT -good-.
Even Foras has a degree of sentience. He left you alone until now (if I am wrong about that, please correct me!), and youc all him out of the blue and ask him for sh1t? That takes more than Maddox's balls to pull off.
Ya think? You did something it didn't like, and then you have the audacity to request 600 years of healthy mortal life? Do you even KNOW what that would entail? Did you meditate on having it? What would happen in ALL situations? 600 years?? C'mon! Don't you have something more important to wish for, like maybe commanding the inspiration for a free energy resource or a disease cure for ebola or hantavirus? Hey, why not even say a panacea for cancer! Resuming...
I'm surprised it even did that.


Why seek the powers of such entities by enslaving them? Why even bother to associate??
Yeah, actually i sympathize. Spiritual diplomacy goes a long way. Just ask the chinese spiritual bureacracy!

Believable, noted, and whats more, I know that much at the least.

He learns!

After insulting them that much in mind and heart its no wonder they dont like to work with you. or happilyOr meditate on the ACT of even summoning them, and see if it is right.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/giveup.gif)

Sparkles had a right to sympathize with their cause, and I in turn with her.

Forget it. Forget my post. Leave it up here, but voluntarily ignore it from eyesight. I wanted to say my piece.

altpath



It doesn't matter what version of the Gods they are, you should still treat them with respect. Demons as you call them, they are the God's offspring whether you or others know it or not. So since you said you got the demon version of Astarte, then yes you done her wrong.

I can't say I've ever really pissed off an entity. Annoyed, perhaps, but that doesn't last long if you're honest about your mistake and/or willing to correct your ignorance. Be arrogant to them, instead of firm, and they'll smite your ass to Kingdom Come.

The few times they've refused to do something, I've asked them why, and usually they have their reasons that quickly become clear. If you take the time to respect them they are very powerful and valuable allies.

As for Bune, I summoned him once and asked for riches. His response was, "It's not your time, child. Wait and see...soon it will be, but not yet" and shortly thereafter I basically slept for three years due to health problems. He was right, if I had gotten what I asked for at that time I would not have been physically or mentally capable with coping with the stress and the changes involved, and he knew that. I thank him for that, too. After all, what he gave me was hardly a flat-out denial. Usually when these beings mean 'no' they come right out and say it.

These beings have memory, judgement, and power dating back to time immemorial. We don't. Yes, they may be constrained to obey us, but that's no reason to be rude.

This post has been edited by Darkmage: Feb 17 2007, 11:12 AM

Maybe I took your response wrongly. I am not disagreeing with your opinion on the right or wrong way to approach goetic evocation. Some people approach them as slaves, others as a working arrangement, still others worship them. Everyone has their own methods.

You can discuss techniques and approaches till your blue in the face. Your response just seemed a little too personal. Maybe it's me. Just keep in mind we do not allow preaching. If someone does something differently than you instead of saying they are flat out wrong maybe you should say if you refine your technique maybe this will happen...

O.k Nero, I can respect that.


The part about discussing techniques and approaches.





I don't believe I was preaching, just stating Facts. If stating Facts preaching then I'm sorry you feel that way. Yes I would say it's just you since you think it's personal. Alot of people may not know how dangerous it is using abusive techniques in calling these beings. If I have a chance in changing someone's mind then that's what I like to do if it's alright with the ADMIN/OWNER of this forum. If trying to save a life is preaching so be it. These beings are NOT genies in a bottle like I dream of jeannie, or anything like bewitched, or alladin..Sorry. People should be warned if they want to use these abusive techniques, lives are at stake here.

You can't just say yea go ahead to people asking about performing these ceremonies. *Shaking My Head* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nonono.gif)

This post has been edited by Edunpanna: Feb 18 2007, 10:38 AM

Greetings Sparkles,

I think its quite obvious the extensive Ceremonial background which Imperial has by the above and other posts. I found his post quite funny in that I have had similar experiances with Goetic spirits.

I show respect but I do not exactly kiss their behinds either.

If they piss me off I will not hesitate to use The General Curse Called The Spirits Chain Against All Spirits That Rebel.

The Conjuration Of The Fire.

or

The Greater Curse.

You should notice that Solomon wrote the Clavicula Salomonis Regis from the stand point of the demons would obey him or he would kick their a$$.

Sure give them a sacrifice. Sure be respectful. But remember who the boss is. You are not calling these spirits to worship them. You are calling these spirits so that they obey your will.

To be honest I have not gained much from working with these spirits. There are other spirits which I have obtained much better results with. Astaroth however has been totally cool and done everything I have ever asked of him. And so I do not mind putting Astaroths name out there. Go Astaroth!

Opinions are like butt holes. Everyone has one. No one is really right or wrong. Please feel free to express your opinion. We try not to be condescending on other peoples practices here. There are many versions of the truth. Certainly no one does magick the exact same way. After all its all in the mind. And what mind is the same?

Welcome to the forum!

Peace!

This post has been edited by Edunpanna: Feb 18 2007, 10:56 AM

Some tend to be broad and can encompass many things. Others are so tight and narrow, no real truth can ever get out. The "Sh1t" religion theory tends to take over from there by the cynic's standpoint: "We are all full of sh1t." Indeed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)


(also, can we have a poop emoticon added?)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nonono.gif)



That's not advisbale either to do humans that way.



Well what can I say it's a !( ) % world. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sport_boxing.gif)

The entities in these grimoires are, in my opinion and experience to date, elements of human psyche given form (thought-form) and while they should be respected as one respects any element of the Source from which all things spring, worshiping them is like worshiping one's own mind. If you seek to be a slave to your own psyche, then that is the path for you. However, by exercising dominion over these spirits (who are in no tradition regarded as Gods) is reflective of the dominion the magician has over his own mind. Hence, the greater the mastery of the mind by the 'hand' of the magician, the greater his mastery over these demons.

This is of course only one view on the nature of those entities. I have always seen solomon's sealing of the demons into the vessel as being analogous to creating a 'key' to the lower psyche for all of mankind to thereafter make use of, mastering those lower (demon) elements.

A great many of these beings seem to be companionable, and if treated with a combination of respect and dominance, then like a good dog they will be loyal. However, if you observe each entity, and parallel it to an element of the psyche, you will see easily that they are, every one of them, negative elements. You do not have to be a bastard to be a criminal, to follow Imperial's analogy of their nature.

Worship them as gods, and they will lead you to confusion, it is their nature.

Being that they are the lower elements of the psyche, I would liken the path that they will take you down to that of the qlippothic tree, into the darkness of the soul, rather than the light. Of course, that is acceptable to some, and for those - Right on, do your thing.

Like the individual being, negative elements must be mastered and excised or transmuted into something positive if the being is to be elevated. Criminals in society are the same way. One cannot simply forgive the negative aspects of the mind, and then allow them to go on with a 'warning', and criminals likewise cannot be 'forgiven' and let go on a warning. Much life would be lost that way, aside from all the other lesser evils that would persist. What then should be done with them, sparkles, if they are not put to task? Just as the individual takes those negative elements and masters them, working good by them rather than the evil they would do on their own, society masters those negative elements within it, turning their actions towards some greater good. (current system's effectiveness notwithstanding - this is the idea, though like the novice individual, society has perhaps yet to figure out exactly how that is done)

Sympathy for the devil is a good way to get burned. He as no sympathy for you.

peace

As far as terrorists/criminals goes, that's another topic.



I won't post about that, and I"M NOT refering to anyone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/closedeyes.gif)

To vagrant dreamer,



That's not what I'm saying, give sympathy to the devil.

Everyone has a different opinion of who and what the devil is.

I won't get into that though, I don't want to "argue" or "attack" anyone, just like two mods already said.

This post has been edited by Edunpanna: Feb 19 2007, 08:00 PM

Your energy's so familiar Sparkles...................

*Ponders*

To follow in the somewhat light hearted spirit of this thread, (this post is NOT serious!) I actually had the thought earlier of someone summoning one of the Goetics, purely in order to ask it the question,

"Is it true that you're really a demon? I read this book which describes you as one, but to be honest, demon seems to me like such a harsh word. I mean sure, maybe the slight aroma of brimstone that seems to be following you around is a bit unfortunate, but nobody's perfect. I really feel that maybe people should simply try to be more understanding of you. I myself have a difference of close to three inches in length in my legs, and I've been made fun of because of that at times, too. People can be so cruel at times."

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/harhar1.gif)

This post has been edited by Petrus: Sep 28 2008, 06:49 PM

I would agree with that post if it wasn't for the comment on "maybe the slight aroma of brimstone that seems to be following you around is a bit unfortunate".
I don't know if it's me or if it's everybody else, but I have never had a manifestation with a stink. If anything I have had pleasant smells whenever I've worked with daemons. Actually I would think that the magician is doing something terribly wrong if the entity arrives with nasty smells. Probably pissed it off...

About the rest of the post, that's a good conversation to have with a daemon. Ask it what it prefers to be called, it doesn't actually have fall in the demon or fallen ange category. Some grimoires say they're elementals, some modern magicians say djinns, it's really a matter of sitting down to have a talk with them.

Cool, altpath...I was actually intending with that to be silly or sarcastic, to a degree...but you think that would seriously work well with them?

The one Goetic I was thinking of maybe trying to work with at some point, in terms of what I've been reading at least, is possibly Paimon. The reason why I was going to choose him is because he is mentioned as having the ability to bind people...and one of the single biggest problems I've always had is people who continue to come back into my life after I've explicitly told them that I don't want to see them any more.

There is one guy in particular offline who was actually in the local paper a day or two ago...he got stabbed in the neck as part of some gang violence, but he was actually coming to my house a few days before that, because he claimed to be an old friend of my housemate. Coincidentally, we did a Chaos type working on the day of the stabbing to try and ensure that he didn't come back, and that the problems I've been having with drug people in general recently for some reason (which is strange because I don't do drugs myself) cease, in terms of them not coming around any more.

That working seemed to do ok in terms of other drug people, but the main guy in question is still in hospital, and I want to ensure I have something else to do as a backup plan if it's necessary before he comes out. People might wonder why in mundane terms I don't simply be assertive and tell him to go away directly. I actually did ask him directly to leave once, but I am reluctant to do it repeatedly for the simple reason that as the above suggests, he has a tendency to be violent, and I want to avoid the possibility of retaliation.