Dying to save the whole of humanity? Who wouldnt? Id gladly be crucified to save 2 or 3 good people never mind the whole human race. Im one man so even 2 men are more important than me so id be a selfish prick not to die if it was either me or them. There are variables to that though. I wouldnt die for mass murdering scums like George Bush or almost any of these dirtbags in power these days.

I dont get the whole story anyway. What would have happened if Jesus didnt die for humanities sins? Also did Jesus even have a choice in the matter? I look at the whole bible story with suspicion at best. Considering we dont even know who wrote the fuckin thing but we blindly follow every single word of it fills me with suspicion. How do we know it wasnt written by the people in power back then as a control mechanism for future generations. For what reasons god only knows. Maybe it was just a group of madmen devoted their lives to writing this crazy story based on the knowledge they had of the world back then.

Also all these religious fanatics never shut up about "Jesus our saviour". Jesus died for someones sins but not mine. He might have been the saviour of our ancestors but not our saviour. Plus in my opinion people of the world today are way bigger sinners than past generations. How come we dont see the divine wrath of god inflicted upon men such as Rumsfeld, Bush, Blair etc. who do more evil in the world than any men in the times of Jesus could do.

Why is it that most of these organized religion claims "This god is the only god", "Only by worshipping this god will you be insured safe passage into heaven, all the other false gods of manifestations of satan and by worshipping them you will go straight to hell". Well if thats the case then were all going to hell. I see sometimes on banners "Jesus is the only hope in the world" and I think to myself, if Jesus is the only hope then there is no hope. Where was Jesus when the US invaded Iraq. Where was he when the Nazis sent all those jews to the concentration camps. What was he doing when all those massacres took place in Rwanda.

The way I see it whether there was or wasnt a Jesus all this speak of battle between good and evil are just symbols or something deeper. Good and evil dont exist. All that exists is one mans will over another and one mans will to stand up and fight to the death to push back oppressors and die laughing.

This post has been edited by Xochipilli: Feb 1 2007, 03:10 PM

Lets try to stay on topic fellas. I understand that some believe the Bible is metaphorical and some would be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to save others but thats not the topic. We're discussing comparisions of YHWH and Sumerian dieties from the perspective of the Bible.

Greetings,

I have merged the current thread with an older one as both threads have the same content. Also there are some good posts in the old thread which may add to the discussion in here. Scroll up to the top for the old discussion. Again this is the same topic in general. Much of the current topic is already discussed in the old one. Now enter Muslim and Christian perspective into the discussion of Judaism and Sumer. I think the combining of these two threads is helpful for a larger perspective on the matter.

Peace

This post has been edited by Edunpanna: Feb 1 2007, 03:37 PM

Greetings brother Xochipilli,as you can see from my nick im in no way a christian so i can only reply with the best of my abilities..

"Dying to save the whole of humanity? Who wouldnt? Id gladly be crucified to save 2 or 3 good people never mind the whole human race.There are variables to that though. I wouldnt die for mass murdering scums like George Bush or almost any of these dirtbags in power these days."

-Thats the thing isnt it-JC preached unconditional love-Whether true or not, he believed he was dying for the sins of ALL MEN-no variables-even the very guys who sought to destroy him..


'How do we know it wasnt written by the people in power back then as a control mechanism for future generations. "

-that argument can pretty much be said about all other religious texts including the bhagavad gita and quran,and this coming from a hindu

"Plus in my opinion people of the world today are way bigger sinners than past generations. How come we dont see the divine wrath of god inflicted upon men such as Rumsfeld, Bush, Blair etc. who do more evil in the world than any men in the times of Jesus could do.
Where was Jesus when the US invaded Iraq. Where was he when the Nazis sent all those jews to the concentration camps. What was he doing when all those massacres took place in Rwanda."

-you expect divniity to be your slave or something-they are supposed to be your problem solvers and come down and help stupid guys like ourselves out everytime we do something stupid like destroy ourselves-How many times do you expect poor old JC to sacrifice himself?-furthermore the concept of end times you should look into it-the concpt of kaliyuga and endtimes all speak about this-Go look into it-and why this much hatred towards religion-this very hatred breeds all the violence in humanity

"Good and evil are just symbols or something deeper. Good and evil dont exist. "
- i really like this point of yours
There is this concept of Neti Neti in hinduism where it is believed The Absolute Brahman(not a divinity it means the formless God) can never be decribed properly as we are trying to give form to the formless and trying to give struvture to something that is beyond structure
-the best we can do is to say what God is not ather than what god is-For example God is not good,but he is also not evil
The formless one is beyong Good and evil
-i dont think our minds can ever grasp something which is beyond our level of understanding since we categorize everything(good or bad,hot or ugly blah blah)-i mean can you really grasp what it means by beyond good and beyond evil?

peace...

YHWH is a mechanism not a god (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Greetings Om.

Good and evil are just symbols or something deeper. Good and evil dont exist.

I can also agree to that statement, but without good and evil there is no order, and Yahweh is a God of Order. The concepts of good and evil, though fallible, are essential to organize, and for less confusion, hence the word 'Order'.

I am countless in my reiterations about how wrong the concepts of good and evil are. The religions which have endorsed in the concept of good and evil are usually the hegemonic religions of order: Islam, Christianity, and Judiasm. We also must remember that without such concepts, mankind's evolution very well may have been greatly hindered.

Psychology does a great job of proving why there is malice and so forth, but that's discrepent with this thread.


Peace

I personally believe that the Nec. fits in much nicer wehich the gnostic gospels than with the KJV or Vulgate versions. Certainly the concept of humanity being created bodily by a demi-urge, but with the divine spark of God does fit better. It´s also worth looking at Jesus in some of the non-canon gospels as he is portrayed much more as a liberator of the soul than as someone trying to save humanities sins. You could also link up Inanna to Sophia and either Enlil or Nergal as the demi-urge.

nyechna

Gnostic in the true sense only fits its own category. Who else believes all the earth is evil? I mean everything? thats just not true imho.

Not all gnostics believe that all the Earth is evil. Besides, according to the Necronmicon, the earth was made from Tiamat, who does pretty well in the evil stakes herself

IMO, the Earth is incapable of being good or evil as it is a ball of dirt unable to desern between either. On the other hand, if the Earth was created from the dead but dreaming Chtulhu (to me the Nec seems to indicate that Chtulhu is at least an evil form of Tiamat), then the Earth has consciousness - in order to dream it has to have the capacity to do so. Therefore, it is not the body, but the mind of the Earth that is evil. - or at least created from evil.

This brings me to evil itself. What is evil other than a word that means the opposite of good? What is Good? In the eye of the beholder exactly what either mean differs from person to person. We all have our donnatative and connatative interpritations. But on the scale of reality - the universe created by God, this all perfect being - the Earth having a mind of evil is not an ultimately bad thing. It may cause destruction and harm to many but in the end it brings about a postive result. Perhaps Chtulhu rising really only marks the assent of humanity into its next form.

I think its important to understand the balance of good and evil, both subjective, seem logically flawed beause they atempt to express the nature of something that is all perfect, and objective - God - from an imperfect, human, perspective. Its the very reason why no religion can logically be the *only* right one because they all are derived from the same fundamentally flawed premise - God is perfect. Even polytheism draws along similar lines. Its not that God cannot be perfect, its that there is no way, in any form God may be, humans can totally, individually, comprehend its perfection. At least not yet.

When I galnce at my Nec and try to find Elohim I see that God changes. Enki granted Marduk the power over magick to defeat the anceint ones and then Marduk used his powers to create the earth and sky, as well as humans, from his enemies. If I remember correctly wasn't it the blood of KINGU that Marduk used to create humanity? So perhaps the parallels between Summerian Gods and the Jewish YHWH really should be Marduk = YHWH, Enki = Elohim.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Feb 5 2007, 05:05 PM

Greetings Acid,

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif)

I totally agree with that!

Thanks.... although I did edit it after you posted.

Basically what I'm getting at is that we can attempt to quantify what is and is not good or evil. Yet because both are subjective its possible that either can actually be the other. Confussed yet? In terms of the Earth being evil, having been born from the body and mind of the greatest enemy of the elder gods, it could actually be a good thing in the long run. Again lots of pain and suffering could happen in any pandemic apocolypes, but whats the end result? If the bible is right then the end result is that ulitimately the evil is subdued and the survivors reach paradise. Yet trying to interpret the words of ancient people from my modern brain this ould indicate a variety of things. By my logic that means humanity becomes united, or at least much more so than now, and is able to attain the next evolutionairy level. Paradise is the transendance of the human race. If the Earth were inherently good then the exact opposite would happen. Instead of judgement day, people continue the course they are now because the Earth is not our rival. It does not challenge us and thus there is nothing to push us into the next level of our existance. As a result humanity does not change and eventually consumes itself - as is what will happen if drastic change does not occur. My interpretation of the end of humanity is not the end of all people but the destruction of how we are now and the birth of a new eon.

Greetings'Acid09',

Man was created from Clay the blood of Kingu. And the breathe of ENki. This relates to my earlier post in this thread that I equate Enki with the Holy Spirit of the Christians. Elohim is a good term for that as well.

Breath = spirit our divine half.

Blood = the dragon current our rage.

So we are half evil and half good.

Damn we sound like Jinn!

I have to admit though. Free choice rocks!

Zi Dingir Party Kanpa!

This post has been edited by Edunpanna: Feb 5 2007, 05:34 PM