Ok i've seen it asked many times but have yet to see a answer to the question.

What is the practical diffrence between the greater/supreme and lesser rituals? eg.lbrp and gbrp
I know the greaters uses the spirit pent/hex.This is not really what i'm looking for.
they have diffrent uses what are these uses?

From my own studies its looking like the lessers are use to invoke/banish a single element or planetary force were
the greater ones are for invoking/banishing more then one element or planetary force at a time.

Am I looking at this right?

I'm sure there's more to it but i really don't need a indepth study of it just something to get a idea on the system of magic.

thanks in advance just having these fourms to read has answered alot of questions i've had.

I'm by far no expert but as i see it the lesser ones are used to invoke for example air of air in all quarters, whereas the greater ones invoke each element of air in each quarter if you follow? (If we use elements as an example)

So in LIRP you would invoke air in east south west and north, but in GIRP you would invoke air in only one quarter, and earth in another and so on and so forth, the point being you invoke air of air, and air of earth and so on and so forth...

I don't know how informative this was or even if it's similar to your question, but hey, here goes nothing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused012.gif)

Well thanks for the info.it was awhile ago when i posted.Well looking into it more i did notice that the lrp does seem to invoke/banish the earth part or the elements and the Srp invokes/banishs the whole element.Which seems right from a point of view of learning.Starting by using the lesser then advance to the greater version.This is along the lines of what i'm looking for so thanks for the reply.

The Lesser ritual of the pentagram is a general banishing or invocation of the forces in assiah. The banishing promotes equilibrium to yourself and your area. Over time it will cleanse and strengthen your sphere of sensation.

The greater ritual of the pentagram is a elemental banishing or invocation that utilizes qabalaic divine names. It's use will bring in or repeal the elemental forces, singular or whole depending.

The supreme ritual of the pentagram is a elemental banishing or invocation that utilizes enochian elements.

Thanks Nero.

I didn't know there was a diffrence between the greater and supreme rituals i thought they were the same you just had the option of useing the diffrent names ether the qabblah ,the enochian or both.

Ok this is a bit off but when invoking a element other then Earth in the LIRP do you use still use the Invoking pent of earth or the invoking pent of the elemnt invoked.I've seen it done both way so little confused about that.

thanks again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif)

This post has been edited by Zenick: Mar 16 2007, 05:47 PM

You would use the pentagram specific to that element.
It is significant that when doing a "standard" LBRP, you use the Earth Banishing specific pentagram.
And if you were going to invoke the element Fire, you would do the LIRP using the Fire invoking pentagram.
(assumably after the LBRP - Earth)

This post has been edited by palindroem: Mar 17 2007, 02:55 AM

The LBRP is the LBRP, it has no elemental qualities. If you want to invoke or banish the elements then you use the greater or supreme version. If you want to banish or invoke a single element then use the one elemental pentagram in all four corners with the same divine name. You can use the supreme ritual to invoke or banish a single element but my personal preference is to use the greater for single elements and the supreme for all. Experiment and see what you think.

So you would open with the LBRP. Invoke the element you wanted with the greater pentagram ritual. Add any invocations you might want to recite or other ritual elements, then close with the LBRP.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused012.gif) The LBRP has no elemental qualities?

Now I'm confused.

This thread might clear some things up: HERE

Hmmm . . . I use it in an elemental banishing/invoking context . .

Regardie (Middle Pillar) makes numerous references to the elemental aspects of the ritual, its pentagram, the god names and the Archangels.
As do Greer, Kraig and Dequette, seemingly.

I assumed that the particular elemental arrangement in the traditional LBRP was the Banishing Earth form specifically because it was operating in/on Malkuth in Assiah. Very much specifically an elemental relationship, like the page/princess of disks.

What, particularly, are the 'forces in assiah' that the LRP deals with . . . that doesn't also include the elements?

This post has been edited by palindroem: Mar 18 2007, 04:00 AM

Thanks again Nero you have really cleared up a lot in my understanding of the diffrent rituals.
It gets a bit confusing when diffrent people explain it in diffrent ways not always the correct way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused012.gif)
Yeah through my findings i was always comming around to the pent in the Lbrp was not the element earth pent.
I think i read somewhere not to look at the pent as the banishing pent of earth but the banishing lbrp pent to avoid confusion.

Ok ok, lets slow down here people...

The LBRP has nothing to do with banishing the 4 elements and leaving only spirit?

This is floor shaking stuff especially as it seems to work so well. Each book I've read states that one is supposed to envision the dieties according to their elemental quater. As I use and am happy using the Egyptian version, although the elemental aspect of the dieties are blurred which has been grating with me for some time, I.Regardie has it that the intonations at the quaters are as follows;

East - Nef = Air = Hathoor
South - Ash = Fire = Sekhmet
West - Mu = Water = Toum
North - Ta = Earth = Hapi Wer

blah blah blah

What has been getting to me is that the dieties don't fit with the elements, Hapi wer is said to corespond to the Nile understandable that he is then earth but hes more water than earth which has lead me to looking into the 4 sons of Heru as quaters. The only one that really fits is Sekhmet. All slightly off topic but if the LBRP has no elemental qualities why does I.Regardie and others have it that the names intoned in Egyptian translate as the elements?

Nef = Air and so on and so forth?

The invokation at the end then has it as;

Hathoor = Mother of light - The morning - East
Toum = Setting sun - The sun set - West
Sekhmet = Mighty lady of flame - Midday - South
Hapi wer = Bull of the earth - Night - North.

This would relate to the idea that the LBRP has to do with directions (as would the 4 sons of heru) so rather than the dieties being elemental they are as mentioned, directional, relating to the aspects of the sun but then how does this take from the elemental side of things, Raphael as floating in the wind, Michael as holding a flaming sword and Auriel (again water rather than earth surely?) holding wheat grass on a knoll?

For them to be Qabalistic does make sence... can see that now (came across a diffrent interpretation). So a person would stand as Horus in the center, Tiphareth as beauty.

*Edditt* So then using the 4 sons of Horus would be more viable an option than the given Egyptian dieties.

East = Raphael/Hathoor - Hod = Splendor = the morning sun - Air -
South = Michael/Sekhmet - Geburah = Severity/Judgement = Midday sun - Fire-
West = Gabriel/Toum - Chesed = Kindness/Setting sun - Water-
North = Auriel/Hapi wer - Netzach = Victory -Earth-



Can see it clearly now although I use a diffrent version of the Qaballah and would have to adapt it but theres still that elemental quality to it even with the Qaballistic correspondences and colours. Fire is severe and judging, water is kind with its nourishment, ?Earth is victorious?

I hold that the LBRP has elemental as well as Qaballistic directional qualities to it, it only makes sence that way.

HTP (IMG:style_emoticons/default/egypt1.gif)
Mc

This post has been edited by Mchawi: Mar 19 2007, 12:29 PM

OK don't know if this will help but this is how i see it right now(seems to always changing lol).
1. You use the QC to invoke spirit.
2.The circle and pent are to create sacred space and banish Earth as in the Qabbalist Malkuth.
3.Next you call the angels or gods they are elemental in that they are the elements of Malkuth(Doing this balances and align the physical self(mind and body))
4.Hexagram aligning the self with spirit
5.Closes with invoking spirit with QC.

Well thats kinda a basic outline of how i see it right now hope it might help.

Of course the angels don't fit in that order, so it dosen't work out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/compress.gif)

1. The QC invokes the higherself and establishes equilibrium as it aligns you with the tree of life.
2. The circle and pents help to create sacred space as well as purifying the aura when combined with correct visualization and vibration. You are not banishing earth or malkuth. Think of the invoking pent as drawing spirit down into matter and the banishing pent as drawing that spirit out of matter.
3. The archangels act as guardians of the circle and establish equilibrium in the null space you have created with your pents.
4. The hexagram is the symbol of the macrocosm. Combined with the pentagram you have 5=6. The joining of the microcosm and the macrocosm, the great work completed.
5. Closes and reaffirms the higherself reigning and the equilibrium of the tree of life.

The LBRP/LIRP is for general banishing/invoking of a particular element (usually earth) in all 4 quarters.

The SIRP invokes each individual element assigned to its respective quarter as well as the equlliberating active or passive spirit it corresponds to, thus by the end of the ritual the 5th element of spirit is invoked as well as the 4 elements.

The GIRH invokes one particular element in all 4 quaters as well as its respective active or passive spirit force.

The LIRH/LBRH invokes or banishes a planetary force as it acts through the elements in their placement in the cardinal points of the zodiac(thus fire=east, earth=south, air=west, water=north). Incidently its interesting to note that the 6 forms of each lesser hexagram can be used to invoke its respective senior upon each of the 4 elemental enochian tablets, and all 6 forms to invoke the respective king.

The SIRH invokes a particular planetary force in all 4 quarters.

The GIRH invokes a planetary force in a single direction, usually the direction the planet is in in the zodiac at the time of the working, or over an object for charging, or both.

Thanks for the input Marsyas.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/angry_pissed_off_emoticon.gif) Yet again someone has a diffrent way of looking at the LBRP/LIRP which leads to the confusion of me and a lot of others have over the ritual.

To me the ritual has a lot more to do then invoking/banishing element earth(which i really don't think it's doing).
I think what Nero said about the LIRP/LBRP is more along the lines of what it does.
Still I'm unclear on what you are really banishing/invoking Nero you said Look at it like drawing spirit in and out of matter.

This kinda clicks but I'm unclear as to what you mean by spirit could you expand on that?

This post has been edited by Zenick: Mar 25 2007, 04:03 PM

The LBRP does banish earth if it is drawn starting from the bottom left point which is alotted to the element of earth. This is the most common way it is used. However It could be drawn starting from any other elemental point in which case it would then be banishing that respective element.