Hello all, have you ever wandered who were the predecessors of the so-called Goetic spirits? This is due to the fact that this universe is but simply a single existence in the flow of existence, surely there would be entities that functioned in a similar role as the Goetic spirits and were their ancestors or something. Probably sound unheard of right, since few here seem to speak casually with entities, putting much seriousness into communication. Seriousness is good for many situations, though to be casual is to be at ease with those one is acquainted with.

Now, from the beginning I've started, I've never ever used any protective circles or techniques, nothing of that whatsoever in fact and somehow I still foundd the entities I want and had no harm.

I know quite a few of the Goetic entities, but I've never really "seen" them as my senses are rather how you say... dull... I can't feel much either only that I kind of "know" that something has "connected" from time to time, otherwise I wouldn't even notice and its up to those that have chose to work with me to keep me informed. Part of it may be due to having an almost null level of perception as I don't expect to see anything that conforms to human perception (absolutely none), its one of the factors for not having any kind of bias at all besides knowing that these are advanced entities of energy.

Its always better to get to the sources without pre-conceptions since they can read all your outer and inner musings in a fraction of an instant and react appropriately, some likely even know I'm writing this now. Its a little thanks to this that a small tiny bit of info was given about their so-called predecessors. A good number of them are still around in this universe... while some have chosen to go out of this existence to await the next...

The goetic spirits specifically are descended from many cultures. Some of their seals look like voudoun loa, while others have similar markings to other tribal and middle eastern concepts, though they weren't always referred to as 'spirits' or 'demons'.

But you're correct in musing that ultimately there are fewer powers than there are names and symbols for them. Once you've gotten familiar with a spirit, they will occaisionally - well, I say 'you' generally, but I've actually never talked to anyone else who also gets this - give you a different name than the one you originally called them with. I think that it's the publishing of that name, and the working up of seals based on personal transmission - for, in my opinion, personal use, rather than widespread dissemination through literature - from the spirit, that has begotten so many different names and seals.

You have a good perspective, and if it works for you then right on. I started with a similar view, then ultimately 'brought it down' into a more conceptual plane to the point that most spirits appeared to be anthropoid beings of varying appearances, sitting crosslegged in the circle opposite me, then took it back up into formlessness. Couldn't say whether it's the process or just the practice in any form, but they come in a lot clearer than they did when I was first starting, to the point that I sometimes feel their presence near me even when I haven't gone through all the complicated ritual element - I consider the spirits i'm familiar with to be a sort of metaphysical possy who go everywhere with me, though I can't always sense or feel them there until I turn my attention to one of them for whatever reason.

For me personally, I don't see the spirits as part of or descended from, anything other than what they are - functions of universal consciousness than transcend space, time, creation, etc. Hence we call it the Archangel Michael, Barashakushu, etc., but really the function itself is none of those labels or images, it is a natural element of Consciousness (the unlimited, divine, universal consciousness), which is through that medium naturally connected to the microcosm of your own 'limited' consciousness. In a way, the spirits and powers seem to me personally to be sort of like the connecting threads between the Micro and Macrocosm of creation.

WHen asking a spirit what it's true form is, they normally give me a speech about 'I am that I am, formless but formed' etc., Insisting almost universally that they are the discrete parts of a greater function of consciousness that exists but has no form.

As to the circle and it's necessity - some people have a knack for connecting to spirits, some people don't. People who do always seem to take their gift for granted and look down on people who use a circle and 'protection' etc. - what those people just never think about in many cases, is simply that some people need to take the steps to put themselves in the right frame of mind, they need the focusing influence of a complex ritual setting, they need to gain the sense of being beyond their physical body in order to open up a channel of communication, and of course they have to deal with a naturally occurring fear of the beyond that more and more people are born without.

It's not surprising to hear someone of your age proudly state that you have never needed a circle. Our generation has produced a slew of natural talent towards the occult. We all seem to have a particular finesse in one area or another - I still use ritual, though not a circle, to make first contact with spirits; but energy work and doing hard magick directly is like breathing to me, and always has been, I had a hard time at first, understanding why anyone needed to use correspondences, altars, etc.

However, if you haven't tried it before, then you ought to sit down sometime and work up a really complex ritual for that purpose. You might be surprised at the results. I never needed even minor rituals to do magick, but once I gave it a shot, it was like putting my magick on steroids. Now for everyday affairs I just point and click, but for major issues, I break out the toys.

If you've got a natural gift for communicating with spirits, then doing a proper summoning ritual may get you a very clear manifestation. Who knows? One of our resident mods, Bym, has a knack for manifestations, and I'll be he also has/had an easy time of talking to spirits without all the hubbub.

peace

In human terms, there's no real straight way to provide a full explanation of the nature of just a single entity. I no longer bother to calculate but just rather feel it that many are far beyond human mental comprehension in all areas, as much of the intangible (there's ever more intangible portions even in intangible energy) just cannot be described in human terms simply as the languages are not made to explain it, doing so will just lead to confusion and utter frustration. The more "knowing" entities plainly assume to roles that legends and mythos made the identities out as, so they may be more easily accessible by humans for one reason or another, usually it goes beyond simple "reason"; being simply, complex, and beyond everything at the same moment. Yet if I manages to just "click" and understand it, you can only be said to have "known" more.

Entities thus take names out of convienance, as I've found on myself by asking each and everyone directly till I got sick of it, they can readily identify each other without any sort of classification or conventions humans use, they would even know another's exact capability, history and future all in a single moment and determine how to interact. And many can do an extremely huge amount of tasks at once without diminishing their perception even by just a bit, which is why many "gods" and "demons" appear to have constant reach literally everywhere. They are not truly omi-present in the sense of the world, but rather know all that occurs in a form of "knowing". I believe most would learn this quite quickly in their practice and interaction, heck they usually just let you use the answers your inner selves provide when you interact with them if they agree with that interpretation's value.

I'm not proficient in the terms or philisophical viewpoints of how things are connected or otherwise... I'm not even going to go there... too heavy on my mind... all I can say is that one can find anything one wishes for should one understand that you have to capacity to. Everyone... everything in existence is nothing more but infinite and nothing. Oh well, I don't like duality or anything related to that much, "it is as it is" is what I just go by.

My terrible inexperience in human form to date has led me to initally accept the classification that I had a 'dragon soul' after a question posed by a friend while I was 'speaking' to Enki warranted a yes, only to eventually go into a state where I can be literally anything one chooses. Choice apparently is made by both the outer and inner selves, at times granting a sort of willpower that can only be coined as "no mind". So from this early on, I did not really care for what spirits "look" like, I would rather know the essence as opposed to some appearance made up by human perception. Thus supposedly then, according to many varying entity sources, this makes one extraordinarily hard to fool because the core essence is something that few can manage to change or disguise... that is if one can listen well enough to the subtle hints...

While riding in a bus, I kind of grumbled about how would I use bare-handed summoning without any tools, only to have one inner self, Enki and Uriel direct me to ask here to get the simplest humanly translated answer. So here I am, how do I use a manifestation type summoning without making any ritual markings or using tools other than plain hands?

The other thing was that I recalled that I did something similar in context before, though not very wittingly as it was one night where I stood by my room's window, speaking just verbally that I needed some help that was addressed to the Shinto Deity Inari before going to sleep. The next day, I woke up to find some heavy feeling inside my chest and later discovering that Inari had indeed decided to focus some attention on me because I asked of it, and it was one of the very few times where I could see through my mind's eye... strangely with eyes open all the way. A caine like thing was around there too, a messenger of 'his' according to Inari.

Well, other than that incident several months ago... I still can't see anything which now has become less important, being "blind" spiritually techically has some uses too as appearance can't deceive me, but then there's always more stuff than just that now is there.

I agree with pretty much everything you just said. I personally chose to apply each of my various curiosities to research in many different ways. Ultimately I feel it expanded my perspective in a massively useful way, and also taught me what various settings felt like, how they functioned - not just on the physical level, but on every other level as well - talking to a spirit is one thing, joining with it, blending two spirits, channeling a spirit's power directly, imbuing the essence of a spirit into an object, and accessing the knowledge that a spirit represents directly, these are all very different things which awaken and expand consicousness in different ways. So, it's worth it to experiment with different methods of interacting with spirits, from ceremonial to shamanistic. All those things can be learned in other ways, but truthfully the only thing that we can talk about is the method, not really the lesson within the method because that, as I'm sure you know by now, is not something that you can express. They are functions of consciousness that don't have appropriate terminology that is contextually relevant to everyone.

That is to say, I could describe it with my language, but that language won't mean anything to you until we both are able to grasp the proper mutual context of the words used.

Manifesting spirits without any tools is the same as manifesting spirits with tools, you just do it without them is all. See what I mean? The application, or rather, the experience of the application, such as a formal ritual summoning with a big circle, triangle, wand, braziers, yadda yadda, resulting in a physical manifestation of some kind, is the only thing that can teach you how to manifest a spirit. Of course, you could also ask a spirit to teach you how as well, they are normally good about explaining it directly, which like you said is a language free knowing.

Those magicians that learn to master will and transcend the ritual setting, do so by learning the states of mind and energy that occur during a ritual, and learn how to take on those 'subtle postures' independantly. If you want to learn to do that, i suggest practicing ritual magick, with tools and the whole shebang, while having a spirit knowledgable in that field explain what you should be paying attention to throughout the ritual. That will speed up the learning process greatly. Dragons are good for that, as are a handful of more specific spirits from a couple of grimoires and the necronomicon.

peace

Seriously I would like to learn more of how one would join with and thus channel a spirit, since I know of no real methods to do so myself. My practical human knowledge is largely nil after all, and strangely recommendations lean slightly towards having someone explain their ways so it may cause my imagination to work a bit more since understanding the perspectives of others brings more insights into everything. For one matter, its a largely vast and infinite existence out there, all in and out of reach. I don't feel that any manner in how I'm described by the wide variety of entities I interact with is "wrong" nor do I wish to adhere to labels posed by others or even use labels myself, its clearly apparent that circumstances and choice would show that I would likely be 90-95% "tooless" in terms of making my way in energy with the only tools being my surrounding environment itself.

However, my instincts indicate that its innate that for me to do certain things like directly channelling through my own body would take some sort of innovations on my part as I still get the response that I'm "cannot be possessed", not partially or wholy which means for me to find somewhat alternate ways of doing things. Furthermore, I'm kind of an energy insensitive supposedly out of inner choice somehow, all this in part contributes in fashioning how one works, having to rely on far different ways that most won't have to use or think of and really using that intutition. Allegedly, subconsciously I have all the knowledge I would ever need and don't need "training", only experience and development of the outer side in this. For this I kind of need to observe and then learn the formation to various consciously induced techniques before more can be done effectively. But then, if its like this... on the entity side, those that I meet also have to use some sort of slightly alternate means to communicate as well...

Manifesting spirits without any tools is the same as manifesting spirits with tools, you just do it without them is all. See what I mean? The application, or rather, the experience of the application, such as a formal ritual summoning with a big circle, triangle, wand, braziers, yadda yadda, resulting in a physical manifestation of some kind

I dont think this is true. I think you need the basics and that would be anough and then you can have as many other ritual items as you see fit.
First thing I ever made was my triangle. couldnt do anything without it
A couple of candles and do all the LBRP and LBRH
and draw down the sigil on a piece of parchment and thats it

you can try and you may get something or maybe not but if you go through thr process with the spirit and ask what you want
well you might just get it. I dont really go for the full physical manifestation. with the circle and the robe and wand and so on.

I think for someone who's new to evocation, you'd be right.

I, personally, don't use a triangle anymore. Or candles, or any tools at all. I light incense, make an offering normally, and then call the spirit. Recently I only work with the fifty names, but I've called geotic spirits this way as well. Oh, I use the invocations, etc., but instead of a physical triangle, I establish one astrally.

You can learn what each tool feels like, and manifest those tools astrally without the actual physical tool. It does exist somewhere. THe basic rule is that for something to exist astrally, there has to be a physical counterpart. Well, there is already a physical counter part, it's drawn in the grimoire, and thousands of people have physical versions of their own that they've made. No matter what physical counterpart you use, it's the same astral function. But, the astral function is the only thing doing any work - the physical part is just a focus like any other tool.

I'm not suggesting, like I said above, that a beginner can do this. But yes, it can be done. I light incense and make an offering because I just deal with spirits that way, as allies and companions rather than servants. Some disagree on that point, but it still works for me, and the spirits I conjure are made aware that if they get things done right, and get things done fast, then I will help make them stronger. If not, then I just won't summon them anymore.

peace

Yeah I havnt been able to do that yet so Its been out of question and the ulternative was using a triangle. no once I know abit more about astral projection I think your point is true. and even someone who can lucid dream or has better dream control can do it in there sleep. but I personaly find it easier to do the evocation physicly and then do a astral one after that.

This post has been edited by scryer: May 5 2007, 02:33 AM