I guess I came to Magick trying to find Gnosis, enlightenment, as well as daily peace and meaning. I have practiced and studied several spiritual paths, and found this one to be quite right for me. However, have been having doubts lately as to whether these goals can be attained through the Western Mystical Tradition. I am wondering if anyone practicing Thelema or Golden Dawn or any other Western Mystical path has attained anything akin to samadhi, or enlightenment, or if it's all just a sham.

I acknowledge that using these rituals and overall philosophy can induce brain change. I know my brain has changed since I started. Yet what is the end result? I read books by Crowley and Regardie, yet what was the result of their Work?

I just wanted to know what other people think. Does anybody else have any thoughts?

Brain changes. Opening the doors of Concsious perception. Evolving the way they think and act. Maturing their souls. Attaining a higher degree of awareness that empowered them to be able to do more with themselves or find a greater sense of happiness or synchronicity with the universe and the powers that be. Without actually asking these authors I really have no clue what the results of their magick was.

For me it's another tool in the box to help make my life easier and go a bit more smoothly. Like Colin Wilson said in The Occult, 'You just need to see a baby open a door for the first time to find out what knowledge is for.' I don't do well with knowledge just for knowledge's sake, because if you can't apply said knowledge to your daily life it doesn't really mean anything.

I think your answers on this are going to be as varied as the people who answer. And not everyone who's been whacked over the head by $Diety are going to be occultists/magicians, either. It really just depends on the individual.

I agree that any practice should be applicable to daily life in some way. With zen, for example, daily mundane tasks are to be done with serenity and reverence as if it was of grave importance. A day with out work, they say, is a day with out bread. I find, have found, that due to my Magick experimentations I have become a better person. Morally, spiritually, even physicaly, more so than when I was a Lutheran (so long ago) When I would commit actions with no thought of concequence, other tan that G-d would forgive me in the end.

I think upon Crowleys' "Do what thou Wilt" and the find some of the anxiety. I mean, there's alot in that statement. It is Up To me? It is UP TO ME! Not some pastor or priest. Not my mommy. Not my wife. It is the most spiritually liberating sentence, I think, ever. Yet a ton of responsibility.

I just think I'm wandering the wild corridors of Chapel Perilous again. Thanks for the responses.

To know ourselves and the world, and to change ourselves so that we might change the world.

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

I like that. Yechidah. And I agree. When we change ourselves it's a first step towards changing the world. I think that's a Buddhist saying.

I posted this couple weeks back, and now I sort of regret doing so. I was in the dumps spiritually. Kind of questioning it All to an extreme. I'm a natural skeptic, so much so that at times I'm skeptical about being skeptical. It keeps me on my toes. I was a bit impulsive posting out of nowhere. Western Magick is eclectic. A huge buffet of practices, theories. There are certain "utensils" so to speak that are universal and necessary for example, the LBRP; but what you do with it, how you go about nourishing your spirit and mind with all the other goodies is all up to the individual practitioner.

I am at times overwhelmed by the shear volume of material out there. I am also dubious that the end results "promised" can be attained. One would think that a magician who attained "enlightenment" or conversation with the HGA, whatever one wishes to call it would be above material wants, yet look at Crowley (I'm reading his Magickal Diaries now) and how concerned he is with his own big fat ego. Gee, I say, I don't want to end up like that. Then I'll read the book of Thoth, which is pure genius.

Hypocrisy is rampant in all belief systems. Even in Thelema, even Magick. (Readers of this post who call themselves Themites excluded of course.)

I'm rambling....

Peace upon All. Love is the Law under Will.

It's no problem to reach the pinnacle, or enlightenment, of one's critical reasoning and deductive skills. Unfortunately, solely relying on the intellectual prowess that one develops overtime carries a risk of "going vulcan," because everything gets so damn easy to analyze and overanalyze. All parts of oneself are important to development. Unless this is established, one simply develops an insane amount of mindpower without the soul to use it: thus, they become "disenchanted" without their sense of soul. There are a million ways to use your head, but only two to use your heart: To thine own self be true, or to thine own self be false.

You know you have reached microcosmic enlightenment and empowerment when you carry an expansive deductive skill AND have a good sense of wonder, freshness, and enchantment in one's heart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wandwizard.gif)

At least, that's what my goal is.

This post has been edited by Xenomancer: Jun 16 2007, 07:23 AM

That's cool.

What you were saying brought to mind the idea of "The Three Eyes," some christian philosopher came up with. I don't know what his name was off hand, and am to lazy to research right now, but essentially he said that man has three ways of looking at the universe. With an eye of flesh (sensory, empirical), an eye of reason (logical, rational thought,) and the eye of the spirit (intuitive mystical intelligence.)

Ken Wilber said of these that they should idealy be working fine and have juristiction over their own realm. But when one intrudes upon the other he called it a "category error." For example a mystic shouldn't be an make pronouncements on geology using the eye of the spirit. The rationalist can say a lot about both realms, and can reach contrary conclusions , as E. Kant demonstrated. So like you said you get your inner rationalist to fussy about The Great Work, (s)he's going to have a few fits....especially working with Qabalah

Spock is usually my favorite character on Star Trek.

Crowley, Regardie, LBRP ... each is a part of A system of doing magick.

They're most certainly not the ONLY means of doing magick.




Same here ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I was introduced to magick via Dr. Wayne Dyer and "The Secret" (I started out wanting to improve myself; I was initially searching for a more efficient means of wielding The Power of Intention and the Law of Attraction. I found Dyer's methods physically and mentally exhausting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) )





I agree ...

To Know Yourself, and Understand.

I like that a lot, also I happen to believe that the proper aim of magick, in my world view, is to allow us to become enlightened through, as Crowley put it, conversation of your HGA. Magick itself is a tool, it has no true calling toward good or evil, the intent of the worker is what gives it a spin, and it can be used to make life easier. I feel that magick is very much a part of us and to not use it is almost an insult to the universe. At the same time, I believe that working to gain the knowledge and wisdom that comes with it should be part of the main goal, which would help you to become a more enlightened person.

93,

Magick is in one sense, causing Change in accordance with Will... and in that sense is a binding of all facets of oneself to the Will along with its inherent strong, commanding nature. (Fire)

In another sense, magick is that which allows us to explore the realms of self/universe beyond the normal sensory awareness... Manipulation of subtle currents and exploration of non-physical 'planes' are all about expansion of one's sphere of experience, and therefore of one's consciousness. (Water)

Further, magick is the structured ordering of one's mind... the cleaning out of the weeds and the ability to be detached or concentrated when necessary. (Air)

Also its arranging of a perfect pyramid for the Divine Influx to work through - from one's body to one's highest spiritual principle. It is also making one's joy with acts of love under will in all moments of the divine sacrament called Life. (Earth)

IAO131

The goal of magick in my mind is the accomplishment of the Great Work, not a quest for more convenience or personal power but to seek a place in the Universe beyond myself. And having achieved that, returning to the bottom of the summit to help pull others to the top.

I suppose I do have a weak spot for wishing to see a day when all of mankind realizes the inner divinity as a part of The All , also my love of learning and teaching makes it hard for me too see magick as a tool for personal gain. That is not to say that I hold any kind of malice towards individuals who do see magick in such a reguard, only that I see material acquisition as quite meaningless from a personal point of view.

"the whole purpose of magick is to help you realize that you are a god/dess and attain godhood, sharing in creation with the creator source". etc, etc,

yes indeed, the zen masters treated each task as if it moved heaven and earth, because it does - the hindi's put body, mind and soul into their spirituality because it is is in there anyway - when you can create a garden or wither a tree with the jedi wave of one hand, how much thought should be put into wiping your a**?

western magick has a long reputation as being watered down, since the christian influence of intentionally not dare approaching the level of god-hood, yet, in working in conjunction with their god, they end up becoming a co-creator and thus attain that which they deny, and their jedi wave has just as much power as their god's

so yes, the western way will suffice to attain godhood, if one accepts the responsibility of godhood and act the part, otherwise you are wasting your god's time and fubar-ing the very creation you are supposed to be participating in (a.k.a. the 'great work')

imo,

es

Quoting Peter H. Gilmore "Techniques meant as a Self-transformative Psychodrama"

Meaning that Rituals/spells/whatever you use, is meant to help you relieve unwanted emotions/stress etc.


This does not mean that something super-normal cannot occur, it is very possible that our minds can directly influence external forces.

If you are interested in that concept look up "Extended Mind" and philosophy of mind in general. Also look up Rupert Sheldrick.

Best of luck in your work!

UE

Ah, I see IAO131 has made it here as well - glad to see you aboard, you may give Bym a run for the money on "Resident Curmudgeon" of the board (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Anyway, I like everyone's replies and they made me think about myself some too, because it seems we all go through spells (pardon the pun) where we doubt ourselves, or question why we're doing what it is we do. Dry spells, so to speak. It's part of the cycle, just as we are, and first becoming attuned to that cycle we can then begin to understand our place within it... and perhaps with dedication we can transcend it, become it, in a way. These are just my thoughts, and I'm probably wrong. But at least I'm considering it, and that's useful - ignoring it can't be useful at all...

This post has been edited by Matthew Kelly: Jun 26 2008, 07:49 PM

Magick is meant to be like a laxative when there is stagnancy in the universe. When things really don't make any sense, and everything seems cut and dry, the use of magick helps to ease the flow of energies to your comfort.

Bear in mind, however, that to apply such a tactic to a situation hastily, one such where it would be unwise to apply more energy to the situation, means that the results of the magick get dumped upon you. And love forbid that from ever happening!

To change The World (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Change your SELF and you change the World! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

The single main thing for me is to die in a state that's hopefully better than the state I was born in, developmentally; basically to learn. Part of that is Uncle Al's Great Work, but part of it is other stuff as well. I at least try to be more theurgically inclined rather than leaning in the direction of base sorcery. Spell tossing might be fun, but about all it really does for you in developmental terms is reinforce the knowledge that the atheistic view of reality is BS. (Although that in itself is important)

Part of it is also an identity/temperament thing, in my mind. Not everyone is a magician, but the people here are; magic is what we do, in the same sense as birds fly or fish swim. As Darkmage said once, it's a way of life.

Evocation specifically in my mind serves three purposes:-

a) To gradually establish very firmly in your head that there isn't a spoon. (Which goes back to the Great Work)
b) To serve the same purpose as other dangerous sports like skydiving or bungee jumping. (Building courage and thrillseeking, which some of us need)

c) To Get Stuff.<tm> "Stuff" in this context is defined as anything more primarily related to the physical world; money, a new house, etc, but is also defined as paranormal abilities which are primarily useful within a real-world context. (Pyrokinesis, breathing underwater, talking to animals, instinctive knowledge of machinery, and the various other cool things that the Goetics can supposedly teach you to do)

This post has been edited by Petrus: Oct 5 2008, 12:25 AM

Well as i feel compelled to share my view on this.
My idea of the purpouse of magic and the like is simple.
To ELIMINATE any boundries limits and other IDIOTIC things we humans set up all the time.
There is NO limits there is NO boundries.
The sooner we understand that the better.
I watch theese so called friends of mine struggle from day to day.
Complaining this and that WTF do something about it already.
I do not understand anymore what limits are.
I see it simply like this if i decide it is so it is so end of story. lol (IMG:style_emoticons/default/Gigakach_02.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/viannen_74.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yes2.gif)
Well i think i have just managed to lable myself a psychopath and a madman BUT. the previous text pretty much says it i do not give a F****
lol well thats all i think mkay byes and takes cares all youz ppl readings thiz (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


I thought i might redefine a little here to simply by quoting a very extremly good muscisian and lyrics writer AKA SAMAEL.

SAMAEL

8. As The Sun

Focus on, optimize
Rearrange, reorganize
Define new borderline
See how bright, bright you can shine

Enlarge your horizon
Be your own weapon
Visualize your variations
Harmonize your vibrations
Expansion, concentration
Energy fluctuation
Extension, regeneration
Energetic pulsation
Travel in time/space
Meet your wonder face to face
Put the false in disgrace
And the truth will take its place

Fill your world with energy - Harmony and synergy
Fill your world with energy - Harmony and synergy

Explode formatted thoughts
Change references
Explore differences
Can be this, can be that, even can be both
Feel the heat all around when you hit it on and on
The dispatched universe that collapsed in your own
Feel the heat all around when you hit it on and on
The dispatched universe that collapsed in your own

Fill your world with energy - Harmony and synergy
Fill your world with energy - Harmony and synergy

Solemnly I arise
In a world that is mine
Radiantly I embrace
All the days of my life
Solemnly I arise
In a world that is mine
Radiantly I embrace
All the days of my life

Fill your world with energy - Harmony and synergy
Fill your world with energy - Harmony and synergy

Focus on, optimize
Rearrange, reorganize
Define new borderline
See how bright, bright you can shine

This post has been edited by realm_crawler: Oct 12 2008, 11:22 AM