a blog that ive been reading said that those who claims to be a witch but just read witchcraft books are fake.. he said that real witches are witches who has spirit mentors etc. and people who just learn witchcraft through books etc are nothing but fake witches. what do you think of this accusation?

by the way, this is the blog

http://filipinosorcery.blogspot.com/

This post has been edited by Edunpanna: Jun 3 2007, 10:34 PM

I agree with the fact that reading books isn't sufficient to call oneself a witch, wizard, sorceror etc. but I don't think it is absolutely necesary to be mentored by a "demon". By reading this it seems that human beings can't work magic by themselves, which is contrary to my point of view.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/witch.gif)

Okay I kinda get where he is coming from with the

"And by real witches, i mean witches who have spirits or demons as their mentors. I know there are witches who claims to be a witch just because they read a book about witchcraft..I'm sorry but those types are not genuine witch. They are of course FAKE."

Kinda like saying you are all of a sudden black just because you've flipped past BET. But there is no truth to the fact that you need some spirit teaching you magick, you can learn from self experiences and other witches, mages, wizards etc. Picking up a book on witch craft doesn't make you a witch, but in time after you've gained lots of knowledge and have come into your power and are working magick/witchcraft... then YOU ARE A WITCH! You don't need some omnipotent deity to tell you that you are a witch. You don't need some sort of evolved astral parasite sucking on your magickal workings to tell you that you are a witch while it puts you a foot deeper in the grave. Oh excuse me spirit guide... word to the wise, if a stranger comes up to you and offers you candy... check his credentials.

I share Rick's view lol that was just a long way to say "I concur!"


[edited due to my ranting hands going all over the keyboard, lol it looked like I was typing in tongues]

This post has been edited by The White Chaos: Jun 2 2007, 06:40 PM

I read the guys blog.

I am skeptical of anyone who calling others fake and trying to assert his realness.

Also his blog about putting a broomstick upside down by the door etc. sounds like total folklore BS.

Lol, I know right. But I did find his little pee nail boil thing funny as hell and interesting, but I couldn't mess up any good pots or cauldrons.

I am no expert, but I think if you look through the historical documents (folklore, trial records e.t.c.) then you will find that in most cases those who were accused of being witches or made claims of magical ability were considered to have obtained that ability as a result of some kind of pact. This is usually either with "The Divell", some other demon, or with some spirit from Faerie (especially in Ireland).

So, from this point of view the person posting on their blog (which I didn't read) could be considered correct. The historical evidence suggests that witches derived their power from pacts with spirits. Whether you accept that or wish to take alternative arguments under consideration is up to you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

the pee thing is disgusting

Okay...the pee comment made me read the blog.

What he is talking about is another very common item that one will find mentioned again and again if one actually reads something pertaining to the historical practice of witchcraft!!

I apologise if my italicising seems over the top, but I can't believe you guys don't know about this! It was certainly widespread in the UK for hundreds of years, and particularly during the C17th when several writers on astrology published books in which it was recommended!

I should also point out that many of these accounts and documents that I refer to somewhat vaguely exist in the form of folklore studies, which should absolutely not be dismissed out of hand. Yes, some of it is just plain superstition, some of it was made up by "scholars" during the C19th, but some of it is exactly what it says, i.e. the "Lore" that was utilised by the common man. You didn't do it because you thought it was "magical" (you were probably a good Christian who would have no truck with such things), you did it because it works! Heck...Hoodoo is made up entirely of bits of folklore from different places all mashed together, and is still evolving as folklore today!

I am reminded of a story my friend often tells about when he was living in Norway and had a friend who was a fisherman. In Norway there is a sea spirit called The Droge, which is a kind of dead-fisherman-archetype-thingy and is responsible for seeing that doomed vessels become doomed. Now, this fisherman got a new boat one day, and my friend went down to the dock to find him branding a design into the keel. When he was asked what he was doing he replied along the lines of, "This symbol wards off The Droge and will protect the ship and it's crew." Now this guy was a modern man who believed in neither magic nor spirits, but he knew from history and from his own experience that if you were fishing those waters you needed to make sure you had the right "protection". He didn't think what he was doing was "magic"...it was just what you did if you had any common sense!

Heck...if you want a sense of historical continuity to your witchery then forget the gibberish that is peddled by a lot of neo-pagan writers. Get yerself some folklore books and mine them for information!

Edit: syntax.

This post has been edited by J*S: Jun 3 2007, 04:57 PM

As a magician you will grow and find your own way, regardless of previous experiences of those before you. There is one thing that is always certain, originality is more powerful. I agree that the old folklores are helpful, but there is a time when you need to step out of the old and into the new. But some of the new is crap and should be shot O_O but you have to make that choice on your own and figure out what works for you.

Well, your first statement is something that I can agree with, as I think that all practitioners probably would, although I might prefer to term it that you will "eventually" find your own way. However, IMO this does not negate the need to develop and knowledge and understanding of the practices of those that went before. If you wanted to be a scientist of some kind then before you got set loose in the world you would be expected to spend several years in higher education building a foundation by learning about the work of your predecessors, the assumption being that once this learning is complete you are then a position to go and innovate your own approaches and techniques - to build upon what they have done. I see no reason why it should be any different with magic and I think that if you take an holistic look at the grade systems of the various magical orders you will see this principle borne out. Of course, there is always room for the genius to come along and do something amazing and new without this foundation, but in reality such people are rare.

The second statement, that the new is always more powerful, is something that I am forced to dispute. The word "always" is very absolute! This is not because of my own opinions, which are ambivalent, but simply based on my observations of others. There are two points, which are linked:

a) Certainly in the UK there are many pagan groups, particularly Trad Crafters (the Cochranite lot), who seem to be utterly obsessed with the notion of historical continuity. For them the need to demonstrate that what they are doing really is "Olde Wytch Magic" appears to be the dominant motivation. I would postulate that it is precisely this investment in their practices as being genuinely old which give those practices their power. I think the same could be said with regards to a lot of Neo-Pagan approaches (and lets face it, the neo-pagans outnumber the magicians by a long way these days) and that brings me on to the second point.

b) For some people, particularly newcomers, the idea that the rite being performed is tried and tested is a key factor in allowing them to invest belief in it, which in turn contributes towards the rite's success. We certainly get a lot more people coming in to the shop asking for some mythological tome of C16th witchery than we do asking for something completely new that was made up last week (that is normally the request from the people who have been knocking around a while and become jaded). Many people simply do not have the confidence (presumably because they have no training or knowledge of that which has gone before) to sit down and create something from scratch. They want old things, and the older the better. So for them, the new is definitely not more powerful. They have no faith in it!

Like I say, my own feelings are ambivalent. Sometimes I will dive into an old tome and pull something out of that, sometimes I will create something fresh (it usually depends on context). Still, I just wanted to point out that the notion that new approaches are always more powerful is subjective. It might be true for you, but that does not make it true for everyone.

Edit: syntax

This post has been edited by J*S: Jun 4 2007, 08:45 AM

Seems to me that boiling my own urine with rusty nails would be the equivalent of giving MYSELF a nasty urinary tract infection.

In my opinion, for the person I wanted to experience that particular pain, it would require THEIR urine being boiled with nails (and broken glass). Of course, obtaining someone else's urine without raising questions is the tricky part. My belief is the more difficult it is to obtain the "ingredients," the better or more effective the final spellwork.

Just placing an upsidedown broom by the door to ward off witches? Nah...not unless you whack 'em with it.

The theory behind the spell is that the magical link works both ways (remember that whilst the witch was using her influence to corrupt you, she herself was inherently corrupt).

Another variation on the theme is the bury the bottle under your doorstep, but this is more a preventative measure. The theory is that if the witch is using your genetic material to hex you, the first bit of you that the spell will encounter when it tries to get to you is the genetic material in your piss that is buried under your doorstep, and it therefore "earths" itself in that, rather than in you yourself.

I would not include my own body fluids in a spell unless I wanted to be personally connected to the vicitim/interest. For example, I would not clothe a poppet in fabric belonging to me, but rather fabric belonging to the victim. Nor would I stuff it with any of my own hair or dress it with my own urine, etc.

Am I missing your point? --please correct me if so.

Preaching to the choir here with the old things, but I don't particularly take stock in using something of someone else's to work 100% with me, even using something old and using it is in fact making it brand "new" because its your energy and its your personal touch behind it, its your magick, its your soul, its your life, and it is your voice. This is what makes it better, not some symbol that you can barely remember or grasp the meaning behind because the majority of it's explanation has been lost through the ages. The magicians of old are just like these new people making shit up on the fly and testing it. Onces perfected it can absolute, you just have to watch what you are doing and take note. There is no need to be afraid of change because the world spins regardless. I just want to get the point across to those new to the craft that you shouldn't fly out and buy the newest and shiniest book, nor should you flip through a book that you barely understand and try to do it their way. This is something that you will have to learn on your own, find what works. In the end newer is always better because you are new, and what worked for someone else wont 100% of the time work for you. What is yours, what is truly yours is always more powerful and no old book no matter how impressive can make up for originality. This is why you must have faith in yourself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/witch.gif)

Besides without the proper herbal code training you might think that your love potion may actually require the foot of an Englishman.

But is refreshing to know that someone actually likes the old things as much as I do... or most likely more than me.

J*S you get major love points I wish we were friends IRL ^^

That's all fair comment TWC.

I guess I reacted strongly because I was just surprised that some of the folks here didn't know about this stuff! You have hit the nail re: folks have to learn it on their own and not do things by wrote without understanding why (that doesn't mean that they all necessarily do though). This seems to be one constant in everyone's magical development in as much when they start they need formulas/rites with some history behind them, then as they progress they become more confident to wing it, having absorbed some basic principles through trial and error (it also tends be the case, as far as my observations are concerned, that one takes a much broader view of magic, allowing the incorporation of more "stuff"). I just wanted to make that distinction, but yeah, I can see that I was preaching to the choir.

53rdSpirit,

I agree that you can pick out some flaws in the "magical logic" of a lot of old folk magic...at least from our point of view, but remember that this stuff pre-dates Graves. I am just passing on my understanding of how people thought things worked then.

I know right, lol I'm not trying to call anyone stupid or anything but I have personal experience with a student, he looks at the old things I have and he's all "O_O (IMG:style_emoticons/default/baby.gif) whats that mean" and I have to find myself explaining a lot, but thats what happens when you take someone under your wing sort to speak. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/e_singer.gif)

And he's going through the trail and error stage, at first I was all protective and like "do this and do that" but backed off a lot and I'm letting him find is one path and what now, at it seems he's taken a liking to psionics and crystal work and neither of these fall out of my jurisdiction I just love the craft hardcore ^^

so was he tryin to make us curse ourselves?

I do not think it is intentional.

In my opinion, I think this person is inexperienced and copied this spell down without thinking much about how it works or even having actually worked the spell or having done much spellwork himself/herself. Maybe a little, but not much.

For instance, the blogger writes that

1) "...if you suspect you are being bewitched..."---then proceeds to tell you to do a spell. In my opinion, if you suspect you are being bewitched, you should perform some type of divination to determine what is going on. People should not just "guess" they are being worked, and just "guess" who is doing it. Spellwork can be harmful, debilitating and/or deadly and not something to just go zapping here and there and everywhere--that's so, well, kindergarten.

2) "...gather your own urine...rusty nails...boil...etc.,"--blogger does not mention anything about visualization, chants, directing energy, naming the person the spell is directed towards/returned to, or anything. Just boiling urine soup does nothing by itself.

3) "...caster will definitely take off the curse he placed upon you."--oh poppycock! An experienced witch/sorcerer, etc., would have taken care of that when they cast the original spell--made sure that the spell could not be reversed or any curse returned. The blogger will find out that the boiling urine soup curse/hex will just bounce right back to him/her and not reach the protected curse-originator at all.

I would like to know where this "witch" learned that pee and rusty nail spell. I don't put much cred toward people like this who insinuate that others can't learn magick on their own from nothing other than a book an personal field work. It begs the question: how did the very first "witches" learn their craft? Who taught them to commune with spirits? And by the way what exactly is a witch? Its open to interpretation and I'm sure we could come up with a number of definitions.

When people try to tell others what to believe about magick I generally say plug your ears and nose because its just a bunch of smelly bs. Get out there and make your own conclusions, but try to respect the conclusions of others. This fellow is entitled to his opinion I just disagree.

Gah! Have you not read anything I have posted?

I see two possibilities in terms of responding to these points. The first is suggest that you refer to my prior post on why rustic C17th peasants thought this was a suitable way of dealing with a possible magical attack, and then apply some critical thinking (note the italicisation, it is important).

The second is to suggest that you refer to my prior comment that this stuff pre-dates Graves...that of course implies that it also pre-dates Blavatsky, Fortune, Gardner, "Results Magic" and the New Age movement. Having done so you should then apply some critical thinking.

Acid09,

See my previous comments to ascertain where he got the spell from.

I think that all is trying to do is present some ideas for workings derived from the primary sources that were extant at a time when belief in witchcraft was widespread. I admit that he would do well to cite his sources and make it clear that this is what is doing, and that such things are the foundation of the ideas he is posting on his blog. I suspect that to do so would probably help to allay a lot of the criticisms you guys are directing at him and I do not think there is any kind of questionable motivation involved. If anything, he is simply putting this material up as presumably he has noticed that there is a severe disinclination amongst those who would call themselves witches to actually get off their butts, do some research, and find these things out for themselves. After all, sounds a bit too much like hard work doesn't it?

J*S.

Not to quibble, but the blogger referred to in this thread is providing the inexperienced with antiquated magical practices to be used today, which although quaint and very interesting, are in my opinion pretty much impotent on their own (note the italicizations, they are important). I have researched and possess many old tomes of literature in my occult library on "rustic" 17th century witchcraft as well as the primitive occult practices of other cultures. I have a keen interest in this historical aspect of folk magic/witchcraft and incorporate some elements in my own spellwork whenever possible because I understand the reasoning behind ancient occult practices.

.

I took an introductory logic class once and we discussed alot about the art of arguing. Generally speaking when a person attacks another or a group of others even a catagory of others, they are doing so as they were the authority of their subject and attempt to get people to see others as such. Such accusations are actually called maxims ad hominem - a biggy for politicians in those capaigne commercials. Its actually a very piss poor way to sway people of any intelligence. Which scares me because a lot of research has gone into those campaign adds and the studies show that what they do is actualy very affective for getting votes. In this case it tells me this guy is probably some amature "witch" trying to make money or find a power trip or something like that.

Okay, points taken from both of you, and some good points they are. I have to agree that, having reread the blog in more detail, there are some claims scattered through which I would take issue with, which of course tend to undermine the integrity of the whole thing. I thus have a greater appreciation for the rationale behind your opinions. For the most part, however, I still incline towards the views previously espoused, but I would contend that further debate will get us nowhere and accomplish little. My care is stated, but is not sufficient to satisfy you. Clearly, we must agree to differ.

I do think that having proper training is a far better way to learn magick than by one's self. I just think that witches can be anybody with enough magick backround.

What do you mean by background?

Practice, experience, first hand knowledge. I mean at some point in history somebody had to figure this stuff out. Maybe they had the help of some otherworldly beings. If thats the case then why can't a person pick up a book and use its knowledge to do likewise?

I guess in a way its personal, not because I'm somehow insulted, but this guy is pretty much calling people like me a fake, assuming I understand him correctly. Firstly I think a witch is a term thats pretty much synonimous with magician, sorcerer, mage, wizzard whatever else. To me its a person who studies and practices magick. I study and practice magick. I have not had the opportunity to study under some "expert" or esoteric order, nor was I ever approached by any spirits who taught me some arcane secrets. But to me to say I am a fake because of this flies in the face of my own personal expierence. Then again I don't walk around telling people I'm a witch either. My point is simply the original blogger presents too vague of an arguement to settle with me. And in my experience people who try to push such beliefs tend to be the fakes. This guy I don't know. Maybe if I read more of his stuff I'd be convinced. But we can come up with several deffinitions for witch, what it means to be one and who are the real deal and who are the fakes all making an arguement open to personal interpretation with no real answer. And actually this is convenient for this blogger because he doesn't need to provide any credible evidence of his claims. He can pretty much just say whatever he wants and make people nod and smile.

Don’t be so surprised. Not only have I never practiced wicca or witchcraft. I have never hugged a tree either. Although I have chopped many down.

I do not have to dance around naked in the moonlight to understand that Mr. Blogger is full of it. After all I have dated enough witches to have a passing knowledge of something that does not really interest me.

As far as the pee goes here is an old Hoodoo trick. Break a mirror. Put the shards in a mason jar. Pee in it. Boil it. Bury it. Now supposedly when someone tries to work magick on you it will go into the mason jar bounce off the mirror shards amplify and return to the sender.

If that’s not gross enough for you here is an old witchcraft folklore trick. Urinate on your hands to protect yourself from magick. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/head_hurts_kr.gif)

Witchcraft is cool. I have no problems with it. Other than the occasional retard who claims he wrote the book on it.

No one knows everything. In truth we are all a bunch of retards when compared to the knowledge of the source.

Peace!

This post has been edited by Edunpanna: Jun 10 2007, 12:59 PM

That is cool! I am finding Hoodoo fascinating at the moment. If you know a little about all the various streams that have influenced it you can look at the spells which have resulted and see how practices from different parts of the world were combined together to produce them. Geeky perhaps, but it gives me pleasure! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I do find myself using Hoodoo and Santaria from time to time.

Okay here is a random question,

Who here likes really elaborate magick or am I just a wierdo?

You're just wierd... ok I'm teasing. I actually perffer really simple magick. To me and especially given my already extremely complex nature, the more complex the ritual the more likely I am to mess up. I find elaborate rituals combersome and over done. Somtimes I'll engage in an elaborate pathworking ritual either through meditation or lucid dreams but I think I've just had enough experience with that that its almost second nature. So maybe if I took the time to learn really complex magick it'd work just as well as the simple stuff. Thats pretty much why you don't see me too often in the CM forum. Also I find a lot of the complex rituals are just boring to me, unless I'm really stoned which I likely wouldn't be practicing magick in that event anyways. And if I can't stay focused on ritual I'll likely just mess up.