I was reading Dion Fortune´s "Psychic Self-Defence" in which came a paragraph that caught my particular attention, followed by a brief experience of hers. The paragraph reads as follows:

"There is a very curious aspect of the occult field concerning which something must be said in the present
pages, though not a great deal can be revealed, and, to be frank, I do not know a great deal about it
myself, but only such aspects as I have actually come across. I have always heard it called the Occult
Police; others may know it by different names but I believe it to be a very real and concrete thing, though
its organisation is not upon the physical plane, nor, so far as I know, are its mundane activities gathered
up into any single pair of hands. I have crossed its trail upon a number of occasions, and played my part
in its activities, and I have talked with others who have also been concerned in it, and they have always
said as I do, that it is the inner voice and circumstances alone that direct our activities when we
co-operate with this mysterious organisation."

It caught my attention because I have heard of the Occult Police but always (mis) took it for a joke. Oh dont tell anyone or ill be in trouble with the occult police and such.
Then Dion Fortune came into my life. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I also read, in the same book, that there are certain lodges called Hunting Lodges in which the purpose of the group is to stop the wrong doings of Black Lodges and that the Hunting Lodges have some sort of link or direct connection to the Occult Police.

So I was wondering, is there such a thing as "Occult Police"? What are your experiences with this organization if any? or just jot down your opinion about them.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

The "occult police" definately exist... but there is also an "occult resistance". This polarity between order and chaos was written up pretty well in a novel by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea called "The Illuminatus Trilogy". It existance on all levels of society, and has functioned althrough out history, taking the forms of opposing political, religious, philosophical, class based, and national factions. Marxism even says that "class conflict" (that is factional conflict) is the motor force of history. The "occult" police usually consists of any organized groups of occultists... or anti-occultists (atheists) like organized religion, and occult socieites like freemasonry, the rosicrucians, etc. The resistance is composed, at least in theory, more of individuals, but onces they band up into factions, they also "police" their own spiritual turf, or ideological interests if you will. An example of this is actually freemasonry, which was consolidated in the early 18th century with the purpose of combatting catholicism and really most organized religions. It was effective in so far as introducing secularism to the masses, but became another force of reaction once it became comfortably entrenched in state power and became so dependent on capital...

Occult police for humans is quite absurd as humans generally make very warped standards and such... the police will be policed themselves and so on... bah...

There are however "entity organizations" that literally observe various planets for signs of practices that "they should not have", I've encountered some of them before and they base themselves on various issues such as "nature", "balance" and the like. These guys supposedly answer to various high plane beings who have nothing much to do but to create some commotion to make something to do, commonly the "Justice people" as I term them look for things that in their perspectives are out of place and then shut it down. They're one of the many factors that ensure humans generally don't know much in their own ways, and abilities are generally diluted due to this. They even take complaints from other entities and then summon you to one of their "astral courts" or something before tossing out some punishment that either removes your abilities, gives extremely bad luck or something like that.

Well go ask around entities then, you'll some of these lurking around this planet... because frankly I feel anything that bands into an organization are usually some incompetant things...

This post has been edited by kouya: Jul 17 2007, 08:51 PM

There may very well be a group that fancies themselves "Occult Police" but the fact is that no individual or cult can limit the practices. From what I've read of Dion Fortune, he is simply someone who wants to profit off that which he knows very little or nothing of.

Yes, that is what i also think. I read a while back that in the angelic orders there are angels assigned to each planet, these angels are called Thrones and are part of the second choir of angels. The job appointed to the Thrones is to impart divine justice for the planet they watch over.




I didn't mean that there were actual humans who do this job of Patrolling the Occult world, rather than "ambassadors" if you will, ambassadors for other entities of the astral maybe?. I don't think it would be a job appointed by astral beings though. But it does sound unlikely, and I will stick to the theory of astral entities instead.

Three may keep a secret... if two of them are dead. Like Imperial Arts said, secret occult orders are not powerful, and powerful occult orders are not secret.

Any yokle can claim to be from the "poe-leese", broadcast it all around, and claim it to be their "big secret." If you encounter any of these "justice people" you're likely encountering a loner who let their magickal practices ebb their sanity, which does sometimes happen if one lets it. At most, you might come across a small cabal of said loonies. That, or some have genuinely gone the Buffy the Vampire Slayer route and tries to save the world at every turn. But again, these would be isolated cabals at most.

Now a good Samaritan or vengful Punisher would be different. A good Samaritan would just be a person either passing by or who lives in the area and decides to help whatever situation that has arisen. The Punisher types can either be rolled into the lone yokle types, or they're out try to satisfy their own personal revenge on others and don't truly care about justice one way or the other as long as they vent at the expense of another. Again, these are all isolated types.

Any powerful order that forms is quickly made known, whether via divination, asking a spirit, direct contact with them, etc. Remember, three may keep a secret... if two of them are dead. Well, in this case I guess you can just whip out a ouija board and ask, so the adage is moot when it comes to magick, but you get the point.

Greetings!
To SPoison: Dion Fortune (aka Violet Firth) was one of the first female psychologists in the then mostly male field of Psychology. She was the founder of the Inner Light Society and was a member of a number of more popular occult lodges. She was a prolific writer on occult topics and alot of her work remains highly esteemed by occult practioners the world 'round! She knows her stuff...I highly reccomend her work!


A general comment:
The idea of the Occult Police has occured due to a number of incidences sighted by various practioners and with the mystique engendered by the lodges themselves. Blavatsky was another who has hinted about such a 'group'. During the later eighteen hundreds and early 19 hundreds there was a massive upheaval in the European occult lodges. I'm sure that the story has its origins within those times. But even farther back there are myths and stories that allude to mysterious saviour-like beings that come to mans rescue in the hour of need. Look at your religous dogma etc. for these hints.
I have had a few brushes with some mysterious group/force in my lengthy meanderings within the occult community. 'Occult Police'? Who knows. Keep a pragmatic approach not a scoffing one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/diablo.gif)

I didn't mean to say that there is an actual group that calls itself the "Occult Police", but there are essentially two groups in society which extend themselves even into the occult: the group that wants to maintain the status quo, and the group that wants progress. To say that people who want to maintain the status quo or even introduce reactionary ideologies, policies or laws don't use the occult is ridiculous. So, the function of the police who are hired by the state apparatus is to maintain the status quo, protect private property, etc so there are also people in the occult world who will try to maintain the status quo; keeping new or controversial religious and metaphysical ideologies smothered; just ask the early Christian gnostics if they had any run-ins with the "occult police" - or Jesus himself who was executed for essentially an occult crime. Or just ask the Aztec and Incan civilizations if they had any trouble with the policing of their occult beliefs.

The 'Occult Police' hinted at by Fortune stems from a common (within various occult communities) belief that there are 'ascended masters' that look in on the occult darings-do of the world. They employ a variegated collection of real life and spiritual personages that adhere to a higher 'ascetic' cause (these are my poorly chosen words, i apologize). According to this 'ascended master' ideology the 'occult police' are a collective that responds to pleas for intervention. This belief has been passed down through a number of modern day occult 'lodges'/orders both, incidently, of Western AND Eastern philosophy. What the Aztecs may have believed....who knows? The idea to fit this belief into the status quo vs progressives paradigm is oversimplification, IMHO, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/i_triangle.gif)

I dunno anything about ascended beings besides that they are a large part of the "I AM" ideology, and I am pretty sure I have never met one, but it is undeniable that established religions tend to try to crush and cut down rival and nascent ones... Roman paganism tried to do it with Christianity, and when it found it could not it converted itself to a state endorsed version of Christianity ... When the Spanish arrived in the new world the way they "policed" what they saw as a Satanic religio-social structure was baptism in blood and bacteria. Where ever Christianity has gone it has played the role of judge, jury and executioner when it has found opposing belief systems. Basically I guess I am saying that any faction or group can play a policing role in terms of the occult, and the faction that has the backing of the most wealthy or politically powerful individuals usually comes out on top. I guess I am boiling it down to mean occult policing essentially equals religious or holy war. For what else is policing besides clashes of armed violence by one faction who wants to maintain order and another who jus don' give a fuhk. Conflict theory I don't think is a simplification on this one... conflict between factions truly has been the motorforce of political and religious history, from the 30 years war after Protestantism was introduced in Germany, to the regional war between Sunnis and Shias in the Middle East right now - being on one side or the other of an occult, metaphysical or holy war means coming into direct conflict with other humans who want to police your occult and metaphysical beliefs and activities.

this may be of interest to some in relation to "occult police"

Dan Carpenter has written a book titled "a psychonauts guide to the invisible landscape" in which he writes about his journeys into the land of the dead (or the Hive as he refers to it) facilitated by the disassociate DXM. he writes of encountering a number of guides, and is shown some of the workings of what goes on there.

the relevant chapter is called Dream Police. it's short, so i'll type it here:

the phenomenon of occult police includes three phenomena at least.
First is the semirealized activity of astral bodies, belongings to the people, to inclined to the roleplay games
Second is activity of secret organizations, keeping their secrets. Meets rarely.
Third is the phenomenon which can be de bene esse named the effect of external control. What it is actually, unknown activity of higher forces or safety devices of own consciousness. It consists in tom that if an astral traveler fits close for what to to the serious things, either "aborts" him or locked capacity for astral trips.

i disagree with that, every order has an inner order within it which consists of the elite, fewer members. does those type of order do not need to recruit.
why do order need to recruit, why do they need power?

If there are Occult Police, they are not in the normal concept of what we think of as police. It is not “evil” that they are after or what we would think of as abuses of power it is something else.

On the flip side I have witnessed people who do not like each other getting together to stop someone who is abusing their power. It could be that “the occult police” where the force behind this. However, I think it was people looking to their own self-interest to a large degree.

There are also groups that specialize in policing “their own” but I find theses people mostly idiotic and somewhat delusional. Kind hearted but delusional…then again who am I to say.

All I know is that in my experience, serious abuses of power where not put down by a special group, just a concerned group helping out a friend of one of them. And it was not to put an end to other abuses, just those that concerned one party, and a telling that it will not be one person that comes after her, but a group if it comes down to it.

Made me think of Twin Peaks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The Bookhouse Boys and the Black Lodge. "The owls are not always what they seem"
It sounds like what Dion is saying is that there is a kind of astral egregore or conglomerate of egregoric beings responsible for resisting the forces of black magick, "evil" forces, and occult "wrongdoings". This egregore can then be tapped into consciously or unconsciously when one is pitted against these sorts of things. That's my interpretation anyway.
For anyone, who has seen Twin Peaks, remember the Giant? I haven't seen the whole series yet, but from what I've seen the Giant might be considered a kind of occult police, helping Agent Cooper.
Lynch is awesome!!

This post has been edited by flyingmojo: Nov 22 2007, 07:53 PM

Occult Police - hocum pocum? I don't think so. Dion Fortune is not the only writer to have alluded to the Occult Police. W E Butler in his posthumously published book "Lords of Light" ( a collection of his lectures to "The Ibis Fraternity") mentions a little of the concept in a lecture on "The Withdrawn Order". The Withdrawn Order is a misleading label given to "a body" that functions behind a number of modern esoteric groups, particularly the Society of the Inner Light and a number of key groups that have branched off from it. Page 128 of Lords of Light provides some insight into the roles of the Occult Police and, in particular the role of "Hunting Lodges". I would encourage anyone interested to beg, borrow, buy this great little collection of lectures.

Best wishes

Malvhina

Who says they failed? The 3rd Reich was toppled and destroyed with it's leadership either committing suicide or being executed. Sounds like a success to me. Unfortunately the 3rd Reich did a lot of damage before their demise, but they were destroyed in the end.

There are a number of books that are about different orders and groups that did a great deal of magical/astral work against the Nazi's during WW2, Fortune leading one of them. Weather they were some official "Occult Police" or not is unknown, but they certainly acted like they were, or at least were acting in support of or on behalf of the "Occult Police".

Assuming the "Occult Police" is composed of superhuman entities from higher planes of existence, I think it would be hasty to project our own value systems onto them. Even among humans, values differ greatly, although there are certain tendencies that seem to be universal amongst us. When we're talking about beings of an entirely different order, I think it's safe to take our own ideas about what is prudent, just or necessary and throw them out the window, as such ideas are based on what we can discern given our modes of perception and comprehension.
To illustrate, I ask the question: What do dogs concern themselves with from day to day? How about ants? Amoebas? On what do they base their decisions about what actions to take or not to take? When it comes to policing, ants will fight to protect the colony, or invade other colonies for the purposes of survival. How much of this is based on conscious forethought and how much is pure instinct? Can ants understand human politics? Economics? Sociology? Astronomy? I can't say for sure, not being an ant, but it's safe to assume that an ant can't even imagine the kinds of decisions and possibilities humans are faced with. We can see and comprehend more than them and the scope of our decisions is greater. A chain of worker ants in a human's kitchen probably has no idea why the human comes along with a can of Raid and wipes them out by the dozens, while we generally leave the ants living outdoors to their own devices.

Again, without placing any value judgments on their actions, if the occult Police exist, there's no way we can say why they were "unsuccessful" in stopping the Third Reich. Did they even try to? What are their values and how do they decide such things? It could very well be that they let the Third Reich carry on as long as it did on purpose because they comprehend some consequence of it that we can scarcely conceive of. How far ahead can a human look compared to an ant? How far ahead can an archangel look compared with a human? Who knows what goes into the decisions of such beings?

Again, without placing any value judgments on their actions, if the occult Police exist, there's no way we can say why they were "unsuccessful" in stopping the Third Reich. Did they even try to? What are their values and how do they decide such things? It could very well be that they let the Third Reich carry on as long as it did on purpose because they comprehend some consequence of it that we can scarcely conceive of. How far ahead can a human look compared to an ant? How far ahead can an archangel look compared with a human? Who knows what goes into the decisions of such beings?
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I agree with the substance of what you are saying, in that we should not project our opinions into the affairs of things more complicated than our personal biases.

On the other hand, the notion of an Occult Police even vaguely similar to what Dion Fortune proposes is (IMO) nonsense. Are the neighborhood witches gathering to curse your pigs? Just visualize this green cross and all will be handled by authoritative spirit-masters! While I am sure she wrote this with the best of intentions, it is purely her fantasy. Perhaps there are spirits or even occultist humans who keep watch or take vigilante action, but the Occult Police she describes are not such a general body but rather a specific and supposedly secret magical fraternity. I disbelieve in their entire existence, and I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of any group waiting for some random person to visualize a common symbol so they can take magical action against that person's adversaries.

I concur with you there. I've read the book in question and I found the idea a bit farfetched myself.

Besides evrything you've said, I'm also inclined to think that while a supposed Black Lodge could do some harm, there would also likely be inherent limitations built into such a group's philosophy and methods, and they couldn't do the kind of harm that would even necessitate action from a group like an Occult Police force. What I'm trying to say could be summed up with an analogy using fire:

A candle's gentle flame burns steadily and slowly, providing light for a relatively long period of time. A hotter, more violently-burning flame will quickly consume its fuel; unless more is constantly provided it will burn itself out. Its power may be great, but its life is relatively short-lived. In this analogy I would liken a "Black Lodge" to the violently burning flame. Its purposes would likely be self-defeating in the end and it wouldn't be quite so easy to find new recruits, especially given how secretive such a sect would need to be. So who would even need Occult Police?

Of course there are always exceptions, the Great Chicago Fire being one of them. Maybe we can compare the Third Reich to that?

I dunno. In case you can't tell yet, sometimes I get caught up in an afterthought and stray from the central topic, and that's what I did in my previous post. Everything else worth saying was already said in one form or another in previous posts. In the general sense, I do agree with you.

Weren't there several episodes of charmed where the girls did magick in public or something and these I think the show called them "cleaners" had to come and reverse time or some such in order keep magick secret from the masses? Sounds kind of similar to these occult police.

In a way what I getting about them from this thread that is actually kind of scary too. I mean there are these wizzards who are pulling magickal strings on a global scale manipulating world politics, economics and war. If these folks were "noble" you'd think they'd have found a way to help the poor and third world nations (without resorting to nuclear weapons). Then there are things like katrina and that tsunami that killed like 200,000 world wide and left millions homeless. Then there's Darfur in Sudan, I remember correctly.

These guys sound like a bunch of nazis and of themselves. However I'll have to admit I am hard pressed to believe in the existance of any such organization, let alone speculate on their core values. Sounds more like a spin off from the Illuminati or the church of Opus Dei.

"YOU THERE! DROP THAT ATHAME AND PUT YOUR HANDS UP!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/irvine.gif)






Sorry, couldn't resist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

This post has been edited by The Sorceress: Dec 18 2007, 12:15 PM

Haha, nice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Along with: Move along. There is nothing to summon here. I repeat, move along, there is NOTHING to summon here.

You have the right to do what thou wilt, anything you do Will, can and will be used against you in astral court..... Bind him officer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/busted_cop.gif)

quick, empty your mind! - its the psychic po-po!

Heh!

"No, officer! I'm just holding this spellbook for a friend of mine! It doesn't belong to me, really!"

Or worse yet, the psicops pull an LAPD Rodney King on your ass... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/badmood.gif)

My experience with the "occult police" has been the very misfortunate occurence of finding busy-bodies going out of their way to interfere with the course of my path- and then, i'm left with the obligation to set them back on track by either distancing myself from them, or causing them to remove themselves from me (psychologically and/or metaphysically).

As far as the legitimacy of this idea is concerned, i'd say that we may be in some way inclined to position ourselves as metaphysical aggressors or co-operators of certain forces in the universe that side with either "This" or "That".

Any real student should see at the outset that there are many grey areas that lie inbetween.

This post has been edited by Lucifer: Sep 29 2008, 06:38 AM

I believe that there are Occult Police, to the point where I know there are. If you get their attention they usually warn first, it would be best to listen. I'd guess that there is no one here in these forums that would warrant their attention. They don't have a 911 line, or a police station.

Nazi Germany:
Hitler had his staff of Magicians some of them played both sides, they did what they could. Hitler defiantly had some entity on his side. Too many coincidences of him escaping assignation attempts. More of this I can not say. But they tried, remember the occult work of the Nazis started way before 1939. In fact had Hitler Died in 1936 we would all be praising him as one of the greatest people of our time (some do to this day). So it took a while for the German people to really see what was happening.

Thank you bym, Dion Fortune, was amazing. She lead her group through the war doing what they could in probably the best possible way. Her letters to her group and any one that wanted to join in the effort, have been published a few years back, they had been classified in England which by law hold classified stuff for 50yrs. Sorry don't recall the title. If there is an interest I will have to dig through my books to find it. Ok, she wasn't summoning spirits for the war effort, there was nothing very colorful in the way she went about it but (IMO), the book is worth reading it has a lot to teach. Of her writings my favorite is The Secrets of Dr. Tavener, I have 3 copies and have read it many times, I even got a hard back of the book. It is good reading no matter if you believe it or not, it is said to be true, and I believe it is. She was one of the first authors I read, way back when her books were in hard back, I have them all. When I was young her books while good advice were perhaps less thrilling then Crowley or Mothers and the others. However I think I got more out of her writings.

As for the Ascended Masters, they can not interfere in Karma, they can direct they can, teach, but they can not do much to interfere on the physical. I believe that FB was one of them, although he did not come out an actually say he was an ascended master in Frabato The Magician there is little doubt, he did what he could in Nazi Germany, it is a very good book also.

Ascended Masters:
I did not really believe in them myself, my teachers did, they spoke of them form time to time, but there was no real emphasis on them. By a long series of "coincidences" they came to my attention. I started to look into them and found that much of what my teachers were talking about had to do with the Ascended Masters. They apparently are numerous Buddha, Jesus, Krishna, some of the saints, FB or Hermes 3x and Thoth are probably the same entity, many we never heard of, it's a long list. The whole Ascended master thing just plane makes sense to me, explaining many things. Anyway I have found that aligning myself with the Ascended Masters (by understanding the tradition) is life altering, it has removed all that remained of fear as far as I can tell.

An example of how they seem to work:
I have found that they seem to help guide me in my exercises. I do a series of exercises and meditations every morning before I start my day this Sadhana (sp) is a thing I have been doing, on and off for 40 yrs. It has grown from 20 min to the present of 3 hrs. I'm retired Ok, so I have the time. Since I have actually took the time to try to understand the Ascended Masters I get pointers on my exercises, they have been reordered, and have become unbelievably powerful. Nothing more then I can handle but once I get used to the level, the bar gets raised. I have even had them physically move my hand to change something. I work with several but one is the most prominent he also hangs around my mother, she is 86 and fell a few months back. He has helped in the healing process, she talks with him and has felt his touch.

The big point I have gotten is that they CAN NOT do a lot with out our help, they work with people as a team members. They are powerful and that is why we don't see much of them... Jesus is a prime example they turned him into a god. By the way in my life time I have seen him go from the son the GOD himself. This of course is a perversion but it is an example of what happens when these guys show up. They don't want to be treated as gods, they suggest the rest id up to you. If you have the right relationship with them then you get to see some incredible things. Most especially they do not interfere with your development or Karma however you want to look at it.


Krell