This question came about today because some of the members here have spoken about how morals are relative. Some hold deeply to their religion, some aren't very religious but are very moral, some like the dark side of everything and seek it out, and some (like myself) tend to be on the amoral side. But what really inspired me to make this poll was that some hold the view that certain morals are strict while others are relative. For example, one person said that murder, lust, and greed are all fixed wrong behavior in addition to any personal views on sin, and if you perform the said sinful actions, that it can screw with your magick and color your karma.

Lust was listed as a "fixed" sin, but personally, I don't find anything wrong with it. And I'm not a perv or sleezy guy at all or anything like that, rather, I truly believe that there is nothing wrong with carnal lust and acting on it. I can droningly say with my mouth "lust is wrong," but I don't truly feel this. I wonder what other sins people here feel is or is not "wrong" in the stereotypical sense.

This poll is in the stereotypical sense, not the kind in moderation. When I say Envy, I mean "gotta have this," almost willing to steal kind of coveting. When I say wrath, I mean bordering on murder. When I say greed, I mean not even giving a nickle to a beggar. Also, when I say indulge, I mean you are tempted and go out of your way to perform said deed.

Also, please refrain from voting "None. I have achieved Dark Enlightenment." when you have also voted for for one or more of the other options. It shows you didn't put any thought into it and just went clicking away. I put that option there in case there was someone that DID NOT have ANY problems with ANY of the sins. The same goes for the "I wish there were more deadlies to indulge!"

When you clarify in the above - that the poll is in the stereotypical sense - then I have to say that they're all sins. But, I hate the word sin, maybe just because was raised on a diet of "Sinners will burn in eternal hellfire!" and koolaid.

However, in any kind of extreme sense, they all impact the movement of energy around you, often in negative ways, or are results of deficiencies of one kind or another that are typically on the harmful side. I don't think that, for instance, an extreme version of Lust is particularly immoral, however, it is typically an indication of a (possibly temporarily) weakened energy system seeking to obtain energy (gratification) from someone/something else.

Whether 'immoral' behavior will impact your magick is hard to say. I think that magick is most effective when you have a balanced and self-sufficient energy system, and that state of energy is conducive towards a particular lack of these feelings in any extreme sense, and many of them not at all.

peace

I think all the deadly sins are just reflections of aspects in our human nature that the Catholic faith found to be undesirable, in the extreme sense, and so tried to quelch these inhibitions rather than stress moderation. Human nature cannot be denied. At least not in every single person. The church only proved this because there were still priests and nuns indulging in sin. The 7 deadly sins are only bad in the extreme sense where they become consuming passions that over ride the rest of our human nature; adversly affecting ourselves and those around us.

Really, it's about consistency. If any of these 'sins' brings about an inconsistency with one's sense of balance, one should recognize it as such. some people are inherently lustful, whereas others are are totally unselfish, and like it that way. What really kicks one's soul around is when they worry about the 7 sins as being a gold standard of spiritual living, and in the process, dislocate their soul, bringing about it's so called 'dark night of the soul' (no correlation with the darkness stated above), such as in my case! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/badmood.gif)

When this happens, its good to find a way back to oneself, though the path back can be hard without proper direction, if one finds themselves incapable of remembering.

Remember, no shame in being one's self if it's who you are! This may even apply to those whom are seen as 'evil'. the lustful pimp may truly be happy in his soul for who he is, you may never know. Things are as they are. It's up to you to deal with yourself.

I like this answer and frankly I don't see it any more plain than that (at least on my perspective) so I would like to say that this is very correct but would also like to add that if anything were to be considered a deadly sin it should be religous tolerence.. IN a sense that some people tend to have for a religion other than their own, its as if they shun and curse all other people that simply have different perspective on a certain aspect, yet they grow to hate and commit "sins" to people that are not their religion shouting that they are the ones doing wrong and need to be put to rest.... any ways that is all I have to say...

With MUCH respect to everyone,

~Myroku~

Its much easier to blame others rather than search our selves and find the real source of evil. I think the 7 sins are just an other control measure implimented by church doctrine to make the sheep more passive. Dissention is the end of all forms of governments and the easiest way to prevent dissention is to get people to turn on eachother. It only plays on the psychology most people have to blame others rather than themselves.

I'll second that. Sheeple are easy to manipulate. By inventing a system that everyone can blame to make themselves feel guilty, "customers" MUST go to the ONLY place to alleviate their consciences: to the church. The patrons then subjugate themselves to the perceived authority of those that are no better than them and, to quote Cartman from South Park, "put a dolla in zeh box-a!"

I voted for wrath as one of the sins I indulge, but I don't really. I'm normally very controlled but explode on the rare occasion that I do get angry. I also feel guilty after such outbursts due to it's damaging nature, and this happened recently which is why I voted for it.

I would also like to clarify that there is a difference between foolishness and sin. Some think that drinking alcohol is a sin, but it isn't. Abstaning from alcohol or constricting it's use is wise and being a lush is foolishness, but this doesn't make drinking a sin. I think that the same applies to the so-called 7 sins.

To me, Its sinful to believe in such a thing as sins.

You may piss of other people, become a socially unacceptable person, and that may be called a sin if you like, but its more the action/reaction of society, nothing more.

If you didn't feel any of those "sins" you would be anything. Just a blob of insensitive matter. I think that the expression "everything in moderation" also goes for them, and it become morally wrong if you go beserk on any one or all of them. Anyway, what is regarded as sinful or otherwise is a personal or social perception which is worthy of further rumination!!

My God...
WHAT HAVE I DONE?!?!?!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol_2.gif) j/k

This is actually why I like these forums. It's so much more mentally stimulating than the incessant complaing competitions on the last board I was on.

I've never really respected what the bible labels as sins, since the old testement god commanded his people to rape, slaughter innocents, lie, steal, and basically commit every sin he forbids. I believe that any action one commits that causes the suffering of another being is wrong, but I hesitate to use the word "sin" because of the religious stigma attached. I agree with acid. These things are only "sins" when they negitively affect others, otherwise lust is just the impulse to reproduce and greed is just the desire for survival, and until they hurt others, they shouldn't be considered sins. There's my input.

Good Point... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif)
Well You got me thinking...

~Myroku

I have no idea where this came from, but a hoary old magus once told me that the concept of sin is derived, originally from the ancient Egyptians, and was applied to their priest-hood. In that context it meant (roughly): Being in a state unsuitable or inappropriate for the performance of one's ritual duties.

I recall that at the time he was giving a lecture for which I was in the audience. His example was, "Let's say you are a magician...or would like to think that you are. If, at the time appointed for the performance of your ritual, you are hungover and stinking of alcohol and sex because you spent all the previous night getting wasted and shagging some bit you picked up in a bar, then you are in a state of SIN!! You are not in a fit state to exercise the concentration necessary for the performance of a magical working!!"

He raised his voice and stared at me whilst he said it, which was most uncomfortable. It was like he was reading my mind...

Anyway, that is food for thought I think.

(the definition, not my debauchery!)

I had already been thinking about sins, wrong, and right before I read this topic and i've come to the conclusion that it's better to consider how your actions will affect others than how the actions will be judged by a god.

EDIT: I accidenally told the meaning of life but then I decided to omit it. Not really, just had a typo...

This post has been edited by Fenix: Jul 21 2007, 03:52 PM

93
Ah, silly Messiah. I heard a "Holy Man" talking about the 7 deadly Sins today.
Funny how God himself is guilty for the same sins we are condemed for.

1. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) Anger- Look at the OT... nuff said
2. Greed- god wants EVERYONE to worship him and no one else.
3. Envy- He fessed up to this when he called himself a jealous god... he said it.
4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wheelchair.gif) Sloth- On the 7th day he rested, an omnipotent being wouldnt have to do this.
5. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mf_popeanim.gif) Pride- God made man in his own image, clearly shows self appriciation
6.Gluttony- There will be a feast in heaven after Armmageadon. You dont need food when you die, and Gluttony is eating more than you need to survive, so ipso facto, eating is sin. Also, he demands blood sacrifice to pay for sins, gods dont need to eat. He's a glutton.
7. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) Lust- I do believe God Raped Mary. After all, she did get knocked up without consent.

Food for thought.. Goodnight All (IMG:style_emoticons/default/diablo.gif)
93 93/93
Noxifer

This post has been edited by Noxifer_616: Jul 26 2007, 12:47 AM

Looks like Lust is the favorite. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happydomme_old.gif)

Quality! This made me LOL. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

LOL Aint it true though?

Yes and no. Some are spot on, others not. You also have to note that some of the "sins" aren't found in the Bible, but rather was introduced by the Catholic church and survived through tradition rather than what was actually written.

Forgive the length, though most all of it is food for thought.



I couldn't agree with you more on this. In fact, sometimes God seems almost manical in the Old Testament.

God: Speak to the rock and water will come out.
Moses: Nah I'm gonna beat at it like an unwanted stepchild.
God: Fine, then you ain't gonna get into the promised land, even though you dragged your sorry, dried up, shriveled @ss over the desert for 40 years. MUA-HA-HA-HA!!!



Wrong. I was mulling it over in my head for some time as to whether or not this deserved its own thread, but the first of the ten commandments is the MOST misinterpreted verse in the entire Bible. The first commandment says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

According to this verse, God does allow us to worship other gods... as long as he is first among them. Here's how I know (it's so simple it's stupid): the first commandment says "Thou shalt have any gods BEFORE me;" it does not say "Thou shalt have not other gods EXCEPT me." For litterally thousands of years Christians and Jews have misinterpreted this verse, especially Christians, to think that that verse ment exclusivity to God. Abraham worshipped the Sun, Moon, and Stars, but he paid his greatest homage to God and God respectd that.



Wrong. You're confusing two words.

Envy -- wanting something that belongs to another. Covetousness.

Jealousy -- wanting to keep what already belongs to oneself.



This was more of looking over creation in its splendor rather than being lazy, not unlike a carpenter looking over a mansion he just finished building while sitting in a lawn chair having a beer.



The angels weren't made in his image, the djinn weren't, the animals weren't, the plants weren't-- we are the only creations to ever be fashioned in his image, and we're likely the last. It's more of a unique gift to us rather than pride. Besides, he calls us his children, and don't children look like their parents?



Feast = celebration. You also eat from the Tree of Life to grow stronger spiritually. And where in the Bible does it say that gluttony is a sin?



This is twisted semantics and calling it "proof" while looking at only one side. It was every girl's greatest dream to be mother of the Messiah. If Mary did not want to bear the Messiah, God would not force it on her. There is this little thing called "free will" that God honors. It's why we have war.


Also, some of the "7 deadly sins" are not found anywhere in the Bible. Thus logic would also dictate that comitting each of them will not give you a ticket to hell, unlike what the Catholics would have you believe. The following "sins" are not found in the Bible and are not actually sins, but rather simple unwise behavior:

Wrath -- "Let not the sun go down upon thy anger." This is pretty much it about anger, and it's a wisdom verse not a "you're goin' to hell" verse.

Greed -- I find this one the most humorous. NO where in ANY part of the Bible does it EVER say that greed is a sin. The Bible says that it is better to have spiritual treasures than earthly ones, but people lable greed as sin when it has never been reffered to as such in the scriptures.

Sloth -- "He who does not work does not deserve to eat." This one is like wrath. Being lazy is not a sin, but your belly might tell you otherwise.

Pride -- "Pride cometh before a fall." Another wisdom verse. Pride can cause one to sin (like the sin of rebellion that Lucifer commited), but pride in and of itself is not a sin.

Gluttony -- Proverbs (written by Solomon the Wise) says that gluttons and drunkards will come to poverty, but again, gluttony and drunkeness is just unwise, not sinful.


Interestingly, only two of the "7 Sins" are actually condemned in the Bible -- Lust and Envy. Envy is known in the Bible as "covetousness," and is dealt with in the tenth commandment. Lust is throughout the Bible so I don't need to point out the specifics on this one, though I would like to mention the 7th commandment, which regards adultry. Adultry is sleeping with someone else's spouse or betrothed (fiancée). Deutoronomy deals with sexual relations, but what is most interesting is sex between unmarried singles. If two singles have sex, they are supposed to get married... unless the father of the woman disapproves of such a marriage. So basically, f*ck whatever single you want, but make sure her father doesn't like you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Furthermore, the Bible mentions every possible sexual relation exept that of divorcees, so it seems they are free to do what they want too.


Interpretations, misinterpretations, tradition... ugh.. *shakes head* People...

93,

Are you a Christian? Only a Christian can throw scripture at me like that, show a strong dislike for the Catholic Church, and accept the false Lucifer-myth as fact.

So true, but then he would fall into the pride category. After all, Lucifer allegedly wanted to be first and god gave him the boot. Any diety that demands to be worshipped FIRST and FOREMOST is prideful at the least.


So what does god want to keep? I mean, if he has everything, or at least has the potential to have everything, then what does god (who is alledgedly omnipotent) have to worried about being deprived of?


In truth this would be unnecessary, since he already knew exactly what the world was going to look like.

Also, did god himself come down to visit his wrath upon those he hated? No. He had his sheeple do it for him.


Actually, if you think about it, the angels looked so much like god that Nebachadnezzar said that the one that appeared in the furnace looked "like the son of God".


Gluttony is folly. Sin and folly are the same thing, as sin literally means "to miss (the mark)". If you believe otherwise, then you might as well say that a drunken hobo on the street who is mad all the time, and is very proud of himself, is'nt a sinner.


Mary was "the chosen mother of Christ", she couldnt of said no, or who know's what that sicko would've done, besides she was what, 14 years old? And i wouldnt say that every woman wanted the responsiblilty of being the mother of god's son.

93 93/93
Noxifer

This post has been edited by Noxifer_616: Jul 29 2007, 11:33 PM

Christian-Pagan might be closer. My mother was a fundamentalist and force-fed me scripture for the 10 years that I was an atheist so that's how I know so much of the Bible. However, I've gotten back into spirituality and I'm exploring and introducing new ideas and concepts into what I believe; I like to think that my beliefs are a bit like Abraham's.

The Catholic church oppressed people for 1,500 years, justified their actions as "the will of God" when God gave no authorization to do what they did (and much of what they did is specifically condemned), and still carry some of these oppressions to today. "No man cometh unto the Father but by me" is what Jesus said. Not a priest. Not a cardinal. Not a pope. It is a one-on-one relationship we are supposed to have with God, not a filtered (often false) message through another. I don't even listen to Prodestant televangelists. The priesthood was done away with when Christ died on the cross.

Apparently, I have an axe to grind when it comes to the erroneous teachings of Catholicism. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/butcher.gif) I don't hate Catholics so much as their teachings and leaders. *mutters* ...and those arrogant priests... looking down on the rest of us while raping our kids... making up excuses to torture and slaughter Pagans, Witches, Jews, Prodestants, etc... *mutters some more*

Lucifer-myth? What are you talking about?



Perhaps. But if you ever become a father, would you want your kids to esteem their friends and THEIR parents above you?



It's a parenting issue. Let's say one of your kids has developed a strong relationship with you and you two work on cars together, fish together, play sports, etc.; then suddenly, he want's nothing to do with you because now your child is having fun with someone else's dad instead. Wouldn't you be hurt and/or ticked at this?



All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.



Good point. He sometimes did it himself (like at Jerico or plaguing the Israelites in the desert [the bronze serpent thing]), but mostly he had others do it. I think it is because God has us work for what we want ("by the sweat of thy brow") instead of handing what we want to us on a silver platter. The Israelites wanted Caanan, the land that God promised Abraham, but they would have God's assistance in attaining it rather than leaving ALL of the work to him.



Some scholars believe that that fourth person in the fiery furnace was Jesus before he was born on this planet as a human, but I'm not so sure. It could very well have been a protective angel and its glory awed Nebachadnezzar to the point that he said that. I guess we won't find out until we die, or use divination.

The image of God is not physical appearance, but rather a spiritual reflection. When you look at the angels, their power is fixed. They only have as much power as they were given when first created. We, however, are born with only a small amount of power but can grow to exponential levels, becoming something like mini-gods. (A bit crude of a term to use, but I don't know how else to explain it.) One of the properties of God that was passed to us is the ability to create. Angels don't have the power to create egregores, gods, or other spirits, but we do.



Sin and folly are not the same thing. The English word "sin" is actually an archery term to describe the distance of the bull's eye from the archer. When you fire an arrow and miss, you have "missed the mark" or "missed the target." The Hebrew word for sin is avera, which entirely different from a highjacked archery term. There are basically three kinds of avera: the intentional sin (B'mezid) which is the most serious, accidental avera (B'shogeg) which isn't as bad but still held accountable for it, and an avera of ignorance (Tinok Shenishba) in which one is not held responsible since the person didn't know the Law.

Folly, however, means "the state or quality of being foolish; lack of understanding, sense, or foresight." Fools aren't automatically condemned, and neither is your drunken hobo. Well, he is in a sense, but not for any of the behavior you listed. Paul said "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God," and David said "in sin did my mother conceive me" (referring to the curse of sin passed on through generations, aka the knowledge of good and evil). So your hobo is a sinner due to being human, not by being a fool.



Uh, yes she could have said "no." Similar happens today. There was a preacher who owned a casino and was paid a visit by an angel in church who told him to get rid of it. He looked up at the ceiling and said, "Jesus, you can just go to hell!" and he walked down the center asile right out of the church, never stepping foot behind a podium again.



Was Mary 14? I dunno. Doesn't really matter though considering the Jewish coming-of-age is around 12; sometimes earlier depending on how well the child grasps the concept of avera/sin. 12 also around the age when their parents chose a spouse for them. In fact, Europeans adopted many of these concepts for their children up until the 1700s. Things worked differently back then, and also keep in mind that the average life span was 30-40 years.



Of course not every singe woman wanted that responsibility, but look at how much girls mother their dolls. Girls were told that one day the Messiah would be born into this world and save their people. It wouldn't be hard for a girl to put 2 and 2 together and her motherly love would flare up at the thought of possibly being the special person to give birth to the Messiah.

May I propose a couple of alternate "sins". Hypocrisy and Addiction. As most organized religions have a doctrine to follow and those who proselytize for their particular sect, it would seem they should be held up to that standard by which they expect others to live. Many fail to do so and are the worst kind of Hypocrite. A complete rant could be espoused, but you understand the general point.

As for addiction, this is where I ,as a practicer of magick can be and am a "sinner", as I am a smoker and an addict. This creates a situation where a substance has control of me. My will is bent to it. This from my perspective is a "sin" against my path and true self. This one "sin" is not one of moderation as it has become an extreme in and of itself. I agree the original seven deadly sins in moderation are no more then aspect of human nature. When they take control of an individual is when a problem arises.

I go as far as to say that the 7 sins in their extreme forms are addictions. I mean what is a person who over indulges in lust? A sex addict. A person who over does sloth is likely morbidly obesse. A person who is greedy is obsessed with money and power. They may be a compulsive gambler. A person who has too much wrath probably is abusive towards people and maybe assults their spouse or children. Anger can be a compulsion not unlike an addiction. Pride makes people arrogant and has lead the enslavement of entire cultures to those who thought they were superior. Envy causes people to gossip, be trecherous and dishonest. All compulsive behaviors where the will of the individual is bent to serve that behavior can be construted as an addiction. Gambling, drugs, sex, control, eating, purging even laxatives; pick your poison just remember it can be addicting.

Good point Acid so maybe we can just replace all seven sins with one cardinal sin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif).

The seven deadly sins are always a fun topic.
Greed, is my “favorite” concept sin. It would be hard to say that there is anything we do that is not based on greed. We donate based on greed. We want to not see suffering, so we donate. Or we volunteer to feel good about ourselves.

For early Christians, these where the sins that required confession in order to be absolved of them.

In today’s world they hold little place, in those times…a lot more place, it also probably had to do with the fact that the early Christians where now the state religion of the Roman empire, and people who knew next to nothing of the teachings of Christ where claiming to be Christian. So a simple list of 14 do’s and don’ts was probably a good thing. Also a reason to get people to come to church (get the fat merchants to donate). At this time there where not many churches in small villages, the small remote villages still adhered to the old state gods in many cases. So the church needed a way for the people to know (this is a good time to come to the city) to purify your sins.

With most church doctrines, it is a response to the times. Then they stay in place, because you do not want to undo the work of someone who now dead 400 years+ was a Saint.

It is funny to judge things as time is getting more compressed, more life style changes happened in the last 100 years then perhaps in all of recorded history. Yet for the most part our laws are based on principles from Roman times or revolutionary war times.

It is true people have not changed that much, the human experience has not changed too much. But when you consider the amenities provided in the standard middle class household today. To equal them you had to be among the top 5 richest people in the world.

The levels of entertainment, education, expertise, climate control, food supply and diversity, medical care, clothing. Would really have required an army of servants, and given comparative scales it can be argued that the modern middle class person lives better.

So with that said, remember to judge these things based on the times they happened, not based on the current world standards.

Sin exists because religion needs you to feel bad about something, so they can conveniently set themselves up as your only solace, for the low low price of.... Sin does not exist unless you believe it exists, since you can only inflict sin, and corresponding dependance on the church, on yourself. ...mostly I'm a total prude though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I indulge in the sins usually just to piss off the Christians and Jews and... well everyone on that branch of sinloving Godfearing doctrine.