In the goetia it says that most of the spirits answer truthfully. I think this is true because a spirit of that sort would benifet a great deal more from dealing with a magician truthfully. But with every evokation it seems that the trade off is the spirits influence. You invite this being into you own personal universe and for unknown reasons it likes to be there....?

any thoughts?

Manifest existence is where it's at, in terms of astral desires. The more people use a spirit, the more influence it has over the entirety of existence. Imagine an astral hub with thousands of filaments descending down into the material world, each filament a current of energy going from the hub to the individual physical being who made a connection. The more connections there are, the more of an 'anchor' the spirit has, and therefore the stronger it is.

All energy seeks to be part of the cycle of manifestation and dissemination. That cycle is manifested clearly in the physical world, all plants, people, things, harbor the essential desire to grow, expand, and dissolve back into the world to do it over again. Many eastern traditions talk about this basic desire, and I think it is reflected in the astral realms as well. Think about all the things we have that were just dreams and ideas that became real, manifest on the earthly plane. It's a common process, but few people consider that perhaps the dream itself wanted to be manifest, and found an effective pathway by which to do so.

The spirit doesn't manifest as in being born into a human body, but manifests in it's relative material form - the spirit of fire manifests as fire, the spirit of water, as water, the spirit of inspiration, as a stream of creativity, etc. We are not the only beings who evolve, the spirits who are intertwined with our existence evolve as we do, both the good and the bad, and so it in their own interested to help us along, on either the path of light or the path of dark.

those're my thoughts anyway, i'm curious as to those of others as well!

peace

Greetings,

Imperial is correct. Also we have the Hexagram of Solomon which makes the spirits obedient. The Pentagram Of Solomon TO preserve us from danger and to comand the spirits. The Ring or DIsk of Solomon to preserve us from the bad breathe of the demon. <In my mind this is falsehood.> The Secret Seal of Solomon to bind the demond into the vessel of brass. <I have never made a vessel of brass but the seal in itself I have made and it seemed useful.> The Constraint. The General Curse against the Spirits that rebel. The Conjuration of The Fire. <Very nice!> And The Greater Curse.

I think thats plenty of ammo!

I admit that I sometimes got the exact opposite of what I wanted with thr Goetia. However that may have been due to my own screw ups and not a defunct manuscript.

At any rate the Goetia is fun.

I seemed to get better results when I gave offering to the demon.

Peace!

It's a popular theory among chaos magicians and others, but is there any evidence that it holds also for the Goetia spirits?



I'm not sure I follow. The more "anchors", the more energy would go down from the hub into the material world. Wouldn't that mean that more "anchors" would lead to a faster draining on the demon? Or did I misunderstand what you meant? I'm confused but perhaps due to it being 4am and I should sleep.

Why would they not be truthful?

Unless you lie to yourself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Is this the generally accepted idea? That the spirits are in your mind, or is it just the opinion of some. I seem to read mixed feelings about this.

This is one of those issues “opinions” where I go back and forth all the time. In the end I am not too sure it matters most of the time.

My experiences tell me both, spirits are in my head, and it is an outside manifestation. I prefer the in my head concept, however that does not totally mesh with my “mass hallucinations” hours after ritual (no drugs except minor alcohol) that I was in the same company goofing off and an entity pops in for a general “lets screw with everyone’s mood” moment.

Or general haunting situations where people encounter the same entity, and location is the only thing in common.

I will try to outline the benefits of both and the screw-up’s of both ideas then I will try to answer the question of truth.

I will give the same scenario in three concepts.
1. This is all in my head.
2. This is an outside entity.
3. This is part of the Collective Subconscious.

The scenario will be:
In a ritual I call down entity X, and ask it questions, seek guidance, wish it to perform a service.

For these examples I summon an entity that is very knowledgeable, a trickster, ruthless, and bribable.

Because of the ritual I have done, it is tied to telling the truth, but perhaps not the whole truth.



All in my head:

The human experience is as much about filtering out inputs of data as it is experiencing it, this filtering occurs in the brain on a subconscious level. Often during our sleep state the brain reorganizes that, into bits that are more accessible.
We do not often access experiences we filtered out; it is part of the reason why events often seem different after we have slept on them. Some people access this more then others, and have better recall because of that.
I don’t know any exercises to do this alone, but there are ways to do it with groups…just a lot of work for many people make it awkward to do.

In this example, the entity I summon is a collection of experiences and knowledge I have that correspond to the archetype of the entity I have summoned.

I ask it what I need to and it answers. What is going on is in my head I am recollecting neurons in a different configuration to gain knowledge I have attained but did not choose to connect them in that way before.

The end results are many.
I now have conscious access to information I did not have.
I have an entity that I can later access in an easier and easier fashion, with enough exercise I can bring it forth while driving down the freeway and it not be any more distracting then talking to a passenger.
I eventually can look at the world through the perspective of that entity.
I eventually can gain all the knowledge that entity can bring out based on my personal experience.

Drawback…it will have trouble performing the service if it is on this plane of existence, even if it is accessing the thoughts of another.


Outside entity:

Much more difficult to figure rhyme or reason, speculation is the more they come in the more influence they can have on our plane of existence. The more influence they can have on theirs.

End results:
I get the information I wanted.
I gain a relationship with an entity and I can find out more about it and others, some I have never even heard of.
I will ultimately (if I choose) be able to summon this entity at any point in time.

Drawback…the entity can perform all my requests, my drawback is I end up trusting it and it takes advantage of that trust in a fashion not to my liking, or I enter into debt with this entity. This can be very dangerous.

Collective Subconscious:

This is where things get really tricky. This manifestation is indistinguishable from outside entity. Except you have access to the positives from both inside your head and outside entity.
Drawback “You are bound by your word”. This gets tricky, because we are often communicating using the same voice as our inner dialog. More on this in a later.

So what does it matter where it really comes from?

If it is internal, we really have power over it and it gets to exist, that is all that matters to it.

If it is a true outside force, it gains influence, through the relationship it has with you. At minimum it will gain your respect.

If Collective Subconscious it will want things that are of more common value to the population at large, respect is still there, money it there, it will be less alien to you. But also have some pretty bizarre thoughts and ideas. There are about one billion Chinese peasant farmers, their thoughts, hopes and dreams are not the same as a collage kid in the US.


No matter what it is you are dealing with, it must be done with care. Your word is your bond. If your word has no value, you have little to command with, it will easily get you in a bind or debt.

Ways to establish this.
1. Living a life where your word has value. There are many books on the topic.

2. Establishing a sub-personality where this is true. Chaos mages are more attuned to this, but all Mages do it. Ritual, tools, baths, incense…are all there to prepare mentally for the work, the person you are at that point better be truthful, not only in word but in thought.

3. Establish early on, that your only communication with this entity is your spoken word. This keeps your internal dialog from setting you up, granting you more control. To not look like a crazy person, use a headphone for a cell phone while doing this.

Regardless of what spirits are, remember that truth is often relative. President Bush is called a liar because of WMDs in Iraq. Based on everything he knew at the time, they where, but after searches where done this was found to be untrue, or questionable. The open caches of WMD materials could have been opened after the initiation of the War, and nothing found was manufactured after 91.

Remember this, and also remember the more entertaining entities are usually very good at playing with truth, and half or quarter truths. Hilter was by far one of the greatest leaders in history if you speak only of economy, national mood, world influence. What he was able to do from 34 to 42 was huge. If how he did it, and the seeds sown are taken out of the equation. I am hard pressed to find another leader since Alexander the Great to have arbitrated so many successes.

On the flip side, Hitler is in the top 5 most destructive and backstabbing and inherently evil leaders to have existed in recorded history. At least on the level of success of his backstabbing, destruction and bullying.

The appeasement lobbying campaign in the US, the bombing of London to get the Brits out of the war, the hunting down of former political allies, the seizing of property…

There is no reason a spirit would tell you everything they know about something, and it is easy to hide important things in the boring parts of an explanation.

Now what does a spirit gain through this?

Primarily, Influence (or currency), the ability to get things done.

Some escapism, think of dealing with us as a video game or a movie.

The ability to see things in new ways (no matter the spirit) if it is an outside entity, you bring a unique perspective to it.

A tie or anchor in this plane of existence.

Something here that owes it a favor or two, in case it wants influence on other people here.

Something to feed off of.

The possibilities are endless. Not all good, not all bad. We are dealing with something that does not have material needs, love, affection, respect, admiration are all things that can get us to do things even at a loss of material goods. I am sure there are other things at work, but it can be anything.