Greetings, I'm asking fo opinions/views on the goetia as wriiten and used to obtain physical manifestation.

I have for the past few months gathered the tools, everything is complete. Followed the class lessons, and the text in the book( I have Petersons book and the Crowly/mathers version), experimenting with the procedure. I began conjuring three months ago, and I must say I have had no noticeable results. I use the proper metals for the seals etc experimented with the conjurations using different versions etc, with nothing showing even partial results.

I have used things like dittany of crete for manifestaion aswell. My question really is, it would seem the goetia doesn't work as written for physical manifestation, so is there more to the goetia than meets the eye? and am I missing something? I have a feeling there are more subtle aspects to this system, which are not written down. I would like to ask others who have had success with this system for their views and opinions, and what they believe results in thier success.

Thanks Loki

Well, it depends. Are you summoning specific spirits for specific purposes, or are you summoning random spirits just to see if they'll show up? If it's the latter, I'm not too surprised you haven't had any sort of response as that's a cosmic version of the juvenile prank of ringing the neighbour's doorbell then running away before they answer. That sort of thing gets tedious fast. If that's your goal try a Ouija board as that's what they're made for.

Now, if you're summoning specific spirits for specific purposes, you might want to think about what you're doing and why. I don't use a lot of the traditional tools--I prefer the 'seat of pants' approach--yet I've had fairly decent results with the Goetia because I'm consistent with my reasons, I know WHY I'm doing what I'm doing, and I'm not summoning them for something simple that I could do if I just got my ass off the couch. I also show respect to them--I'm the boss, but usually if they say 'no' to something I'm requesting that they do they usually have a damned good reason for it. While I may not like this, it saves me from my own stupidity more often than not. Keep this in mind while you work.

Also, don't overthink it. If you're worrying about what WON'T happen you won't be paying attention to the subtle things which WILL eventually happen, and so you won't learn to look for signs of success. Best thing to do is just remember that you're the boss, stay focused, write everything down, and give your conjuring time to work. It can be slow at first as magic is a learned skill, but eventually you'll get the hang of it.

Good luck...

Thanks for the reply Darkmage. I have taken my pursuit of this very seriously, and I'm not conjuring things just to see if they show up or not. I have concrete reasons for the evocations, which have nothing to do with me playing "pranks". If I was of this attitude I wouldn't bother getting the tools right and spend 18 hours drawing out the circle, and making the seals.

I'm interested in doing Goetia as written in the text and to gain physical manifestation, as part of securing whatever it is that you want.
With your success, do you experience physical manifestation, or do you scry? And can you expand on "giving your conjuration time to work". According to the text there is no implication about this allowance for time. As for scrying etc, I have done that in the past, and its a skill that takes time, but its not what I'm doing at the moment. Thanks


Loki

It is actually said that the goetia and ritual are a combination of subjective keys that was interpreted by the mind unlocks the gateway in your mind to be able to experience the Spirits. I have found that having just one grimoire does not help, but reading the major ones, attempting to gain an understanding of the similarities and the way they all work will help you to achieve results. Mostly all of the grimoires can be found here in the Magic Balck and White seciton:

http://stores.ebay.com/ROSECROIXBOOKS

Thanks for the info. I have read Greater Key of Solomon and am in the middle of working towards collecting the tools. I also have the Heptameron and have read parts of the Picatrix.

Loki

I've actually had pretty good results with physical manifestation. Basically, I take a burner filled with hot charcoal, dump a crapload of frankincense on it (although any gum incense will work, frankincense is cheap here at roughly 99 cents/oz) and put that in the triangle. Usually what I get is a rough image much like a weak TV signal--sometimes I get 'ghosts' or it will break up and reform. Sometimes I just get a feeling that something is present. Sometimes I get nothing at all at that time, yet I have really vivid dreams where the spirit appears and might as well be someone sitting in the room with me. It really varies and I've yet to figure out why. Sometimes I think it's personal preference on the part of the entity, but I'm not really sure. Hell, maybe it's dumb luck. Sometimes I wonder...

As for scrying, I SUCK. I'm not much of a visual person to begin with, but I've been trying my hand at ball gazing for years with only a pitiful level of success. That having been said, it advanced my personal dream work substantially, so...but this goes back to what I said about not having a preconceived idea of what the results 'should' be and instead letting things flow as they will.

And in the same vein, waiting for results to appear can take time. Sometimes it only takes a day or so, sometimes it takes years for the proper conditions to arise. But then that begs the question--would things have happened in the same way if you *didn't* do the working? Crowley mentions this in Magick In Theory and Practise: he uses the example of sending a letter to a friend. Then, he does a working so that friend will respond to the letter. The next day in the mail, he receives his response. This means that the letter had to be sent BEFORE the working started, but who's to say it would have arrived in such a timely manner had he NOT done the working? Therein is where the wonder lies.

Now, say, you do a spell for money. Unless you're a materialising medium (these do exist but are very very very rare), a sack of rare coins is simply *not* going to fall out of the sky into the triangle. Instead, you may find yourself winning little prizes from contests at local shops. You may get a spontaneous raise. You might find a fiver in the street, or suddenly find a debt you've been worried about suddenly canceled. The possibilites are endless. People say that magic happens in the most natural, ordinary fashion. I've not found that to be the case--a lot of *ahem* 'coincidences' I've had seem(ed) pretty damned UNnatural, but they were still within the realm of ordinary probabilities.

A lot of the trick is knowing when to stop worrying about whatever results you're trying to achieve and simply to let the spirit step back and follow orders. Most of them are pretty friendly once you get to know them, and they will enjoy helping you, but they can't do that unless you disengage and allow them to do as they've been asked. Micromanaging spirits is often NOT helpful at all.

And one final thing--most of these things I've mentioned apply to magic across the board, whether it's candle magic or full-blown evocation. Evocation is one of the most powerful forms of magic, and it's really only wise to use it when you really need the big guns.

Thanks, Darkmage. Like yourself, I have had some partial physical manifestation before starting to do the Goetia as written, and the consistency was haphazard at best.
I've read numerous works of Crowley, and I might be mistaken but I can find no reference to him doing The Goetia as is written in the text. He tended to modify/alter. Apart from an evocation of Buer, which was for his friend Alan Bennett, and which only gave a partial manifestation, and only when the room was thick with smoke. Even then there were omissions or additions to what is written in the text. And if I post a letter I'm happy just to wait for the reply.

I've practised with the LBRP, BRH, Bornless ritual etc with modified tools, and circles. I'm at a stage where I want to work with these grimoires as is. My belief is these were written has a method of gaining proper physical manifastation, without the notion of visualisations, or the "feeling" that somethings there. I maybe wrong, but with these grimoires Goetia, Heptameron. Greater Key etc, are workable as they are written, if all the necessary conditions are met. I have the tools. There is possible room for interpretation of the ritual itself, and also of some of the text. And thats the point I'm at present. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif)

Thanks, Loki

There's nothing wrong with altering a text to make it suit your needs better. Good cooks do it all the time. As for the manifestation, I don't care if the physical manifestation is spotty so long as the spirit does what I requested. After all, that's what I'm calling them for anyway.

If you've got the tools and the requisite knowledge (and it sounds like you do) then just jump in and do it. Don't worry too much about overanalyzing things as you'll just wind up chasing your tail and getting nowhere. But then I'm a pragmatist, so...but it sounds like you're at the point where you need to stop reading and start doing.

In any case, good luck, and post your results!

I hope Loki doesn't me answering this for him, but he has been 'doing' for several months now. It's not the case of cold feet or theorizing too much - he has done the ritual over and over again without results. I know, because I am in the same place as he is. We are both following the 'orthodox' procedure step-by-step and getting seemingly nowhere.

-Theodor

Hmm...that's odd. Getting the hang of it takes time, but usually results become more reliable after a while.

I've never had any problems with blinds in the Keys, but you might be running into one now. Try changing some of the ritual. I don't know what you'd change, as I don't know exactly what you're doing, but tweak it a bit each time and see what happens. Also, you might command the entity to 'make his presence known with signs and wonders,' or words to that effect. It works for me.
.
Also, try evoking into a mirror or crystal placed inside the triangle, instead of trying to get it to make a 'body' out of your incense smoke. I'm crappy at scrying, so this approach doesn't work for me personally, but I've heard of people getting fabulous results with it. You can make your own if you wish by having some sheet glass cut to the size you need, then coating one side with a thick layer of black paint so it forms a semi-reflective surface. That may help you too.

Beyond that I really don't know what to tell you, other than to simply deconstruct what you're doing, choose an aspect to change, and then run the 'experiment' again.

Maybe, Loki, you're working with the wrong grimoire. I'm not saying to give up with the lesser key, but goetia encompasses the grimoirium verum, grand grimoire, etc. I can't say much about some things, but the lesser key is not the best book for evoking demons, and it's not the most effective one either. The GV may seem very difficult to use (killing a goat, skinning it to make parchment and form a leather circle, etc.) but all the tools can be gathered and consecrated within a month if everything is planned ahead of time. The parchment can be bought and consecrated according to the book. Leather strips can be bought and also consecrated as per the book to form the circle. I plan to gather all the tools to use it in the near future.

Also, the lesser key is not very old. Check out older sources. If you don't have it, you might consider getting a copy of "The greek magical papyri in translation". My copy is in the mail, but from what I hear, it could show how far back goety work goes, but certainly not where it originates. People were evoking IAO and various other godforms in those days, so for people that believe that godforms can't be evoked, or that gods such as Horus, or Astarte or Amun aren't in the lesser key, well then more research is in order.

Now, back to the topic, lol. In my experience, spirits can be roaming around in the physical plane, but without a physical body. SO, just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. With one of the nicer goetics, I had a dish thrown in my room because he was mad someone had smoked in my bedroom that day (I used to do evocations in my room. Needless to say, I don't do that anymore ) and it clashed with the incense I was using for him.

So, although the lesser key doesn't really explain it, (and in those days, it was common knowledge) to have a time of celibacy and fasting was the key component to success. Plus, since you've read the greater key, you know that it's suggested to evoke in a crossroads, or some other such place where there is a lot of inherent magical power. The desert, the mountains, a forest or woody area near a stream is important to see the spirit. Just go have a party in the woods with lots of people drinking and making out. As an example, go to a nearby area by yourself there when no one is looking, relax your vision, and right away you'll see a lot of elementals running around crowding around the people. If you were to evoke there, you'd get a much easier and clearer vision of the spirit. There is a nearby make-out spot where I live and I've seen so many elementals there, that if I didn't know my scrying abilities were so terrible, I'd think I was psychic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Loki, what do you do when nothing shows up? Do you give the license to depart? Or do you make a request to the spirit even if you don't see it, and then give the license? I'm just asking, because I almost never see anything, but still get my requests answered. Also, try using a pendulum during the evocations. I know it sounds highly unorthodox, but you can get very clear and powerful (sometimes weird) movements that can give you further insight about why that pesky demon won't appear.

One last note is that maybe you need a grimoire-specific teacher that can help you with this. Someone that has worked extensively with the lesser key and that has done it exactly how you want to do it. I know a couple people that have offered to help me out, so if you are open to getting a teacher, they'll find you. Plus I also know at least one guy on this forum (other than imperial arts) that has evoked in the classic way like you, and got full physical manifestations. Look around, you'll find the way eventually, if you're persitent. Some people take 10 years practicing daily before they start getting results. Not that I hope you have that problem, but I'm just sayin'.

Don't give up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

Hi Altpath, thanks for the reply.

you're working with the wrong grimoire. I'm not saying to give up with the lesser key, but goetia encompasses the grimoirium verum, grand grimoire, etc. I can't say much about some things, but the lesser key is not the best book for evoking demons, and it's not the most effective one either. The GV may seem very difficult to use (killing a goat, skinning it to make parchment and form a leather circle, etc.) but all the tools can be gathered and consecrated within a month if everything is planned ahead of time. The parchment can be bought and consecrated according to the book. Leather strips can be bought and also consecrated as per the book to form the circle. I plan to gather all the tools to use it in the near future

Its possible i suppose, and I haven't read the Grimoirum Verum. Although I am reluctant due to all the time, energy and expense invested in the goetia to do that at the moment, but I will bear it in mind. The last couple of evocations I've done has seen an improvement, in various ways, although physical manifestation remains elusive.


So, although the lesser key doesn't really explain it, (and in those days, it was common knowledge) to have a time of celibacy and fasting was the key component to success

Yes I have considered this, although its explicitly mentioned in the Grimoires that I've read, but not in the goetia. Having said that its something I would look at testing in the future.



Loki, what do you do when nothing shows up? Do you give the license to depart? Or do you make a request to the spirit even if you don't see it, and then give the license? I'm just asking, because I almost never see anything, but still get my requests answered

This something I've started to do, just really because there has been subtle changes in the room. Although I have had no results to speak of, this may be down to various things.

One last note is that maybe you need a grimoire-specific teacher that can help you with this. Someone that has worked extensively with the lesser key and that has done it exactly how you want to do it. I know a couple people that have offered to help me out, so if you are open to getting a teacher, they'll find you. Plus I also know at least one guy on this forum (other than imperial arts) that has evoked in the classic way like you, and got full physical manifestations. Look around, you'll find the way eventually, if you're persitent. Some people take 10 years practicing daily before they start getting results. Not that I hope you have that problem, but I'm just sayin'.

Interesting point. Although now I believe its not necessarily something I'm doing wrong in the ceremony, but something I have to work within me. I've some good pointers in that direction. And knowing other people have success with this in the traditional form, there's ony so many ways to perform the ritual, (and I've done them all, I think), what remains is an aspect of myself thats causing the lack of success. But I believe I know where to go with that, hopefully.

Some people take 10 years practicing daily before they start getting results. Not that I hope you have that problem, but I'm just sayin'.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif) Great. Seriously I'm happy to work on this for the next few months or even a couple of years at most, but that time span doesn't sound appealing at all.

Thanks again
Loki

You're very welcome. I hope you don't feel I was talking down to you, because that was not my intention. But I personally almost never get a visible appearance (usually because I never have a chance to do rituals outdoors, or under optimal conditions like under the moonlight, or in a woody area, mainly because of the dangers of crazy people living out there), and even so I get results. To me, that's all that matters.

Also, like darkmage, I don't have good astral senses, so I get very intense and vivid dreams after evocations. Look out for that, and be consistent. Don't evoke a different demon each time. Go for a specific one, in case you haven't been doing that for the past several months.

Three months isn't long at all. Keep in mind that those who worked with the grimoires years ago worked magic daily for many many years. So I would say if you are still not getting strong results after a few years of using it, you are either missing something (yes there is more to it) or you don't have that particular talent.

Athena

I have a couple questions for you.

The tools that you gathered for the Goetia, did you perform the exorcisms on them from the KoS?
Are you performing the constraint, and or the curse to get them to show up?
I know that the first evocation I had done I had to do the curse to get them to show. Ever since then though they show up wth little effort.

I have this theory. Well actually it is in Dee's journal somewhere. Ave tells Dee and Kelly that the various spirits are around us all the time whether we perceive them or not. This makes me think that when eventhough a new magician makes all the tools the spirits are watching us. They(spirits) may even be thinking "Yeah right, dude. I know you're a newbie so I don't have to take you seriously. Who do you think you are anyway?". I like yourself am very traditional in my approach. I don't fall into the "treat the spirits nice and they will be sweet to you" camp. I say you should respect them, but at the same time be firm with them. They should know you are the boss, but you shouldn't be cruel either or your results will start to get iffy.

If you are doing these things and they still aren't showing up then there must be a reason. Maybe the stars, or someone else is working against you Oh and make sure you are doing it only on the even days after the new moon. Odd days according to the grimoire will either fail or work against you. Then the last thing is yourself. You may be outwardly wanting them to show while internaly hoping they do not.
So many variables, but you will breakthrough eventually.

Is that so? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't understand the definition of even days anyway. Is new moon same as empty moon? Do you use the exact time of day of the new moon or do you just count days? Do you count the days according to the regular calendar or by the magical days where the sunrise counts as the first magical hour?

Or to make it simpler, assuming that the empty moon is on a Monday evening at 19.45. When exactly does the odd days start and end? And same for the even days?

"I don't understand the definition of even days anyway. Is new moon same as empty moon? Do you use the exact time of day of the new moon or do you just count days? Do you count the days according to the regular calendar or by the magical days where the sunrise counts as the first magical hour?"--Grab

No. The newmoon is not the black of the moon. It is the very first sliver of its return from the earth's shadow.
I have been doing it based on locality. Magicaly speaking the day begins when the sun emerges at the eastern horizen. The nighttime even if it is after midnight is still the same day until the sun rises again.
Say for instance it is monday and the sun is setting. There is no moon tonight so don't do anything. Tuseday's sun rises and sets and now it is night time. The moon makes its first appearance (new moon). Don't do anything on this night either as it is the first night and one is an odd number. The next night is Wednesday and the second night of the moon's light. This is a perfect night for goetic work. Then skip the next night, and again the following night is an even day so you can do goetic work.

Now that being said I have done goetic workings on "odd" days of the moon and I have gotten some iffy results. It just seems to work better on even nights so i reconmend doing on those nights until you get your first successful operation.

I hope this helps.

I did not read every reply in this thread all the way through, so if this has already been addressed, I apologize.

Stepping outside the goeta for a moment: What type(s) of magic were you doing prior to starting with the keys? If you were practicing magic before, what type of magic gave you the best results? Would you categorize yourself as a beginner at magic, or have you been at it for awhile now?

And: Have you ever witnessed or experienced a magical effect created by another person? xoxoxo

@ Enigmius, although I have collected seperate tools for the Greater Key, which have not been consecrated, the tools I use for the goetia also have not been consecrated, as there is no mention in the text for this. I believe these grimoires are seperate to each other. I have gone onto the conjuration of fire and greater curse on multiple occasions during the evocations. I believe I am now experiencing some success in some ways, and I have some variables in the ritual, which need adjusting to improve the results. Thanks for the input.

@Scarlett_156. Prior to re-starting the CM after a break of a few years, I practised withcraft/folk magic for some time, casting spells, raising energies etc, with a good deal of success. I've had some sucees with evocation without the necessary tools, but decided to practice goetia and follow the text as closely as possible.

Loki