Hello everyone

I find sigils quite interesting, and I would like to ask a few questions.

Now I understand that one can create a personal sigil, that has no inherent meaning unto itself as a symbol, but nevertheless transmits the desire into the subconscious mind. Now it also seems that sigils can be created that transmit their nature and intention to others besides itheir author/s. I am curious as to how this may be possible. If the author's subconscious mind registers the desire originally formulated by the conscious mind into a sentence and then synthesized into a sigil, you would figure that only the author, who programmed the desire into their own subconscious mind via the sigil, could activate/access the nature of that sigil. For the subconscious minds of others, you would figure the sigil would be meaningless. I could try to come up with my own theories on this, but I'm curious what others think.

For instance, the artwork and sigils of Andrew Chumbley possess no collective memory like Hebrew or Runes, etc, but are his own personal creations. Scrying into them opens up new vistas. Grants access to their nature and purpose, and the nature of the work scribed in Azoetia. It seems the sigils are somehow charged and ready to go for anyone. Like Goetic sigils. How is this possible? Also, most sigils transmit a simple, straighforward desire and purpose. THIS MY WILL TO etc etc Not so with something like runes or Hebrew. The deeper you delve, the deeper they go. The very word rune means mystery. It seems a specialized field of energy whose nature is unfathomable can be somehow bound or connected to a sigil or series of sigils. How is this possible? And what are the possible theories behind this?

For instance, say one had somehow hypothetically solved the mystery of creating an antigravity field. What if it were possible to create a series of sigils and and magickal "diagrams" capable of tapping into that field, so that the sigils and diagrams held the potential of actualizing this field. It would be obvious that the actual form and arrangement of the composite sigil/digrams would have to be functional on certain level.

Cheers all!

Damn! I accidentally posted this in artificial entities! Sorry. Please move to the general chaos magick board.

Greetings Flyingmojo!

It has been entirely too long!

Now please excuse the brevity here on my part...I'm going to take a stab at this as I haven't thought it out thoroughly before...

The system of Chaos magic that utilizes sigil magic works, in part, I believe, due to an assumption that there exists a universal collective 'mind'. When we 'forget' the charged sigil, we release it to this universal collective to be either empowered by similar energy currents or 'picked up' by others of similar mind bent, thereby setting into motion a [revitalizing] (not the word I'm thinking of....sorry)
reifying (that's it!)of the original concept. Keeping a conscious tether to it (the sigil) impedes its progress to the collective as a condom or other birth control mechanism might retard the sperm from reaching the egg. No egg, no result. The fecundity of the egg is determined by a number of faculties. The generators motility, the fertile energy of the collective (available or compatable energy) and the establishment of the 'birthing' cycle (ie the method of materialization). All theoretical concepts but ones that resonate with lifes condition. Since sex is often utilized in the charging of the sigil it stands that this model be used to explore its validity. I would imagine that any number of other processes may be used in like manner.
This doesn't really answer your question(s) but, I hope, will help spark some brainstorming!
Excellent question btw! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif)

Thanx Bym! It's so nice to feel welcomed!

The last 2 years almost have been quite difficult and disruptive. Last year, I moved 4 times, and this summer, after finding secure housing and thinking we didn't have to move again, we had to commute, spending 3 or 4 days on our home island, 3 or 4 days at the island for work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wallbash.gif) It wasn't fun.

Anyway, evrything's settled now.

So....your post I think does answer a part of the question. If the entire uni(multi)verse is the aggregate thought form of God, or the universal collective mind, then the empowerment of a sigil is not just empowred in the subconscious mind of the person, but in the deeper universal mind. This makes sense. Thanks Bym! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

There is, actually, some debate as to the efficacy of sigils outside of its use by its creator.

Bym stated it nicely, (in that school of thought) that the purpose of the sigil is encoded in the glyph itself. Introduction into the Deep Mind/collective conscience would have the same or intended effect. It shouldn't matter whether you or I are the node of introduction.

that said.....

The introduction of a sigil to the Deep Mind will elicit a necassary (recipricating) response from the Deep back to the little mind that it (the sigil) origined from . . . this would be a specific response to the particular psyche structure of the specific mage.
This would certainly mean that my use of a sigil would be unique to me . . . alla, the generation (one method, at least) of a sacred alphabet.

In the 'Information model' . . . every sigil would contain the totality of at least the intention of the sigil . . . maybe even the totatlity of the sigil maker. Perhaps some symbolic representatives are sophisticated enough to allow a "remote" user to actually tap into the mind of the sigil creator themselve . . . directly.


I think its just b.s. . . . and that most people simply invent intentions of anonymous/ambigious sigils and then convince themselves as to whether or not they've been successful.
so, I don't buy into the shared efficacy . . . . at least for the "normal" simply amalgamate intention phrase glyph.

Ah -- but forgotten in this discussion is my motto... "Everything is real." If we are to assume that all paths are legit, and I'd argue so (I've used nearly all in the last three decades with good results from all), then so is this system. I've call myself a chaotic only because I don't believe in Dogma and believe that the heart of all magick is creativity. Chaote's practice creativity above all.

But let's put this in perspective. If we accept, the quite correct statement by Palindroem, does that mean invented sigils don't work? No, I'd argue the opposite. It takes an advanced, creative and particularly practiced and confident practitioner to make it work simply because you can't fall back on hundreds of years (or realistically, decades) of cumulative practice as you do with sigils from other great arts. At one point, all sigils were invented was the concept.

Of course, I went away for awhile (busy, sorry!) then came back, but some of you may remember I'm a heavy practitioner in Tibetan mysteries from where nearly all of Chaos methods are "borrowed." The concept of servitors, for example, is based on Tibetan Tulpas, which were merely a "lesson" from a teacher to a student that although you can create a physical entity, in the end it's actually an illusion. It's a high concept. Everything is real, and nothing is real. The concept of MIND. This is why Tibetans absorb many systems (Western, Eastern, Daoist, Buddhist, Bonn, many others) into their dynamic system. Why? Because they know EVERYTHING works, regardless of belief system. And NOTHING works, because in the end it's a manifestation of MIND. But it does impact the physical world, because in Buddhist thinking the WORLD of the physical IS MIND. Huh. It gets deeper, but then you start to sound like Kwai Chang Kane on Kung Fu.

Bottom line is that Chaos is only for advance practitioners really who have traveled many paths and know their skills. Doubt will not creep in. Creativity is magick. Everything is Real. Chaos is the ultimate freedom from Dogma and the ultimate expression of creativity. Magick is creativity. Creative Will. Will can be expressed dogmatically through systems of magic, or created. It's irrelevant to an advanced user. This is why they're called "empty hands." No tools required. Just MIND.

So, it works. Does it work all the time? No way. Because you have to have supreme confidence in your abilities. Twenty years of practicing many paths is best. It works for me. But I'll bet it doesn't work fro 99% of practitioners, who probably dabble, try it, then abandon. There are no guarantees in magick, ever. It's the skill of the practitioner that matters.

The concept by the way is really the Jungian linking to the archetypal SUPER conciousness. Yes, you plant the seed in the SUB conscious. You create a sigil simply because the subconscious works in IMAGES. A Chaotic doesn't hesitate however to borrow from other sources, so a Kabalistic symbol, a Tarot card, an ancient sigil... they're all just as good. I'm lazy, that's what I tend to do. There's the added benefit of hundreds of years of use. But it's still MIND connecting to SUB mind connecting to SUPER MIND in images. Images are the ultimate language of magick, although sound is a close second. Visualization, creativity, images, sound... all the tools anyone really needs. Self reliance is good too.

However, Chaos never ever works if there's a calculating mind involved. As soon as you analyze why something should/shouldn't work, the entire intention becomes conscious. Conscious intention is the weakest method of communicating with the super conscious (which is still us, but the US that is connected to the super mind of the Universal Mind). Too much analysis means defeat in Chaos. The best approach for a calculating mind is formalized systems, in some ways more powerful simply because they have the added value of years of imprinting. Still, it's not the creative expression of Chaos, nor as versatile.

Chaos is really a dead-on parallel to Tibetan mysteries (not Tibetan Buddhism, I'm thinking advanced Tantric and higher level work).

That's interesting. I had been wondering recently whether or not sigils or servitors could create changes outside of the human mind. For instance, could a protective sigil protect one from a falling brick. Or could it alter how a roulette wheel fell. When I've used this sort of thing it has been things like improving my health or getting a better job. Even though the employer chooses who to hire, the servitor might influence their actions to hire me. But a brick falls according to laws of physics. While palindroem and mezu disagree somewhat, they outline the possibilities. Perhaps I should go to the Niagra Casino and try the roulette wheel and make limited experiments within a budget. Either that or I can wait for a rock to fall on me.

My motto: "Everything is real." Will is governed by application of imagination, force, and utter and total belief in the outcome. If all of those are in place, all things are possible, regardless of method or path. You mentioned law of physics. Phyics define forces we understand ad more or less fully comprehend (in truth, we do not). Magick works with forces we do not yet comprehend, but can identify. But the variables, as in a physics experiment are conditions. If I try to replicate a lab experiment, even with rigorous controls, I may get slightly different results each time. This is a principle of Chaos Science, not Chaos magick (although Chaos Magick is based largely on principles of Chaos Science and Chaos Mathematics). The butterfly effect is the most often quoted metaphor for Chaos science. A butterfly flaps wings in South America and through a cascade of inter-related events causes a typhoon in India. Of course the causation chain is very, very long.

Back to the Casino and the brick. These are 'manifested moments" in time continuums. They seem to happen in the instant. How can magick stop a falling brick? Physics, time, all seems to line up on the side of improbable intervention by magick. Yet, if I create a sigil of protection or luck, and I plant the "seed" in my subconscious, which connects to the super concious there are multiple ways the "magick" can in fact alter the outcome of the falling brick. My subconscious, which accepted the visual sigil as intention, and WITHOUT the intervention of conscious mind (this is why it's important to FORGET the ritual actual), may prompt me to stop and look in a shop window just before the brick falls. It didn't stop the brick. It stopped me from stepping under the brick. Magick works outside of direct time continuums.

In the casino, if the practitioner is skilled, the servitor created is working to an intention. Since I am "placing" my bet, if I'm not consciousless thinking "My magick will make me win" but have long ago forgotten the sigil or servitor, then the sigil or servitor working with the more "influenced" subconcious mind can guide the hand to the appropriate number on the roulette bet. But if you're analyzing or expecting it, the conscious mind intervenes and the subconscious mind is not even heard. You lose. Of course, it takes great skills in both of these scenarios and a willingness to let the subconcious mind guide the actions. Intuition is an aspect of this mind, which is in touch with the Super Conscious (MIND). This is why in Chaos methods, we believe FORGETTING the ritual, sigil or servitor is the greatest secret of success. Magickians who come to it for the first time, from other paths, where the opposite is true (we're taught in many ritualistic methods to not only achieve gnosis and perfection in ritual action but to forcefully and consciously create... well, conscious creation is often times less powerful than subconscious to superconscious for areas of work where intuition is needed (I'd argue, that I'd rather have intuition on my side in the case of a falling brick, than a manifesting psychic force that actually can "move" the brick... Magick always follows the path of least resistance... manifesting psychic force requires incredible force of MIND. Those are the theories, and in practice it works for me. Best,