Ever since i have been acquinted with the occult arts I KNEW THIS. I knew that the occult arts are not for everyone; just like not everyone can be a highly paid lawyer, or a marathon runner, or a singer in a heavy metal band, a mathematician or have a phd. The list goes on and on. Now i think Bym touched upon this too in one of his recent posts so kudos to him.

So i've been thinking lately, what are the requirements in order to succeed in the occult world DESPITE how diligent you approach the magickal systems? What i mean by that is no matter how diligent ( and how hard) a man with low intelligence tries to comprehend a magikal philosophy he probably won't fully absorb it as well as an astute student of the arts.
So again, what ARE the requirements?

1) Gift/natural talent. What i mean by this is that magick is not a science, it is an art. Having said that, ( now i think Darmage talked about this too prior to this post) you need some form of talent in order to achieve success in the occult arts. Just as chess or soccer or computer engineering, you need to have a natural desposition for the art in order to be good at it so to speak. It needs to be your destiny.

2) Intelligence. You NEED to have ATLEAST an average intelligence to be competent enough to absorb all those thousands of books and theories on complex matters with complicated language, metaphors and hidden meanings.

3) A strong memory. Without a strong memory how could you possibly remember ( and digest) all those facts and theories and statements written by those who have written books on occult related subjects? Not just that, but how will you be able to build on your vocabulary ( which is quite important I think since it will help the magickian tremendously when it comes to studying books ) without a strong memory? Not just that, but a strong memory will undoubtedly help the magickian memorize the conjurations/rituals etc as well.

Make a post below showing whether you have all of these ( or not) and how it has impacted your magickal lifestyle.

Comments , criticism welcome.

On the whole, I would agree, but memorization skills are just that--skills. This means they can be learned. Some people are better at it than others, but still, usually this is something that most people pick up in grade school.

I would add that persistence, a willingness to be flexible and to learn from your mistakes, and enjoyment are also critical to magical success. Effort is great, but if you're not having fun putting in the effort you'll get nowhere. That doesn't mean it's going to be entertaining all the time, but if the net effect is that you wind up loathing what you're studying, you're wasting your time. And giving up after only one or two tries likely means you weren't that interested in the subject to begin with anyway.

I've found that studying the occult arts most of my life has taught me to solve problems, work around things and/or accept things I can't solve, and generally roll with the punches that life inevitably dishes out. These are pretty mundane benefits, but they're also valuable ones, and I'm thankful for them.

Myth #1 - you need natural talent to do anything extraordinary. Absolutely not true. Even people with talents waste them if they don't practice, develop themselves, and apply those talents. Many people who find they have a talent in their youth, find that it is lost to them when they are old if they didn't tap into it and make it into something. Talent only counts for half, and without it all you are consigned to is a lot of work, that's all. What else do you have to do with your life? Breath, eat, drink, sleep, work, and die. And whatever else you put in between them. Everyone has talents, its true, but that by no means determines the limitations of what you can do if you want to. I was never a physically talented individual, but I loved martial arts. It was harder for me to get strong and fast than it was for many of the other people I knew. But I had determination, desire, and a strong will to mold myself as I chose to. I caught up to the talented people in due time.



Myth #2 - Intelligence is static. It is not. If you exercise your mind, you can achieve a level of intelligence you never thought possible. Intelligence can fluctuate the same as talent - in fact, intelligence is nothing more than a mental talent. Study up on Raja Yoga for pointers on developing your intelligence. All that being 'less intelligent' means to you in the occult is that you're going to have to work harder to grasp complex issues - but the intelligence behind your brain is supreme, and it can grasp anything you throw at it. The biggest obstacle people with 'less intelligence' face is impatience. Contemplate the metaphors, the complex issues. Over time, the answers unfold. Maybe not as quickly for you as for others, but it will happen, and every time you figure one out, you are that much more intelligent. You have to train your mind to work better.



Myth #3 - memory is static. This one I can tell you from personal experience it totally false. Again, it takes exercise, patience, and dedication. You can learn to have a sharper memory - trust me on this one. I was an absent minded child who had to be told three times what I was supposed to be doing before it stuck with me - and even then I would typically lose track and need to be reminded again. I have a horrible memory for dates, appointments, equations, names, correspondences, long conjurations, etc. I have to repeat, out loud, a conjuration of any length at least thirty times before I can recite it - temporarily - from memory. I do this a couple of hours before any ritual that calls for a verbal component. It's just an obstacle you have to get over somehow.

A lot of people will say that magick is not for everyone. Those people typically have a natural talent for magickal practice, and let it get to their heads. Magick is a part of human nature. We all have the potential to achieve occult skills, there are simply varying degrees of difficulty for everyone. What most people lack is motivation, discipline, and faith. Some people can't bring themselves to believe in the possibilities that magick suggests. Some people believe, and want to achieve it, but it seems so hard that it's just easier to decide that it isn't for them. Some people simply have no discipline, and can't stick to a routine long enough to get results.

But none of those people is incapable of magick. Even the mentally handicapped can do it if they have the will to do so, and sometimes their inability to understand what reality is 'supposed' to be like gives them a natural edge, though it may seem slight compared to the obstacles they face. But everyone can overcome the obstacles in front of them using what they were given in this life to deal with it. This goes double for magick. The infirm, the crippled, the impaired - it doesn't matter what lot you have, magick is about consciousness and one's connection to the universe, and no one lacks these things.

The individual him/herself is their greatest obstacle to magickal success. People set themselves up to fail, and it is the rare and lucky individual who enjoys hard work. It's easy to give up when you're trying to achieve something as ethereal and insubstantial as the possibility of magickal ability. So few of us every witness magick personally before we are able to begin practicing it. if you want to be muscular and athletic, you have plenty of examples to prove it can be done. If you want to be learned and professional, you have only to look at the millions of such people in the world to believe it is possible. if you want to be rich, happy, spiritual, compassionate, charitable, be your own boss, or almost anything else - there are easy examples wherever you look, and that makes these things almost 100 times easier to achieve than occult proficiency of any kind. But only because you can't usually see it for yourself first. That's all.

"Will I be good at magick?" is one of the most asked questions anyone ever asks of any other occult mind. "Is there a quick way to do this?", "What is a spell to make me better at magick?", "How can I fast track myself to occult power?" I have heard these kinds of questions a million times. There is no quick way. There is no easy way. These questions don't apply. An equally valuable question would be, "How can I breath easier?" or "How can walk faster?" Magick is easy. You and everyone in the world do it all the time. Being more magickally efficient takes practice, patience, dedication, and the will to overcome all obstacles between yourself and your goal. If you determine that you have any kind of insurmountable obstacle, then you have already failed totally. Give up and go home, because with that mindset "I don't have what it takes" - you never will. Magick starts with your thoughts, your intentions, the things that you tell yourself are true.

So either do magick, believe that you can overcome any obstacle that prevents you from becoming a proficient mage - or do something else. Every obstacle you overcome will make you stronger and if you determine that you are going to overcome them, then afterwards you will look back on the path you took and realize just how important it was for them to be there. People without any obstacles will always be mediocre. They never achieve greatness of any kind, because greatness is a challenge, and if you never learn to overcome a challenge, then you can never become great in any sense of the word, in any field occult or otherwise.

peace

Well I am not all knowing (actually I am I just can't remember it all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) so there may be some things I've left out.

What do you need to have success in the occult:

Motivation, dedication, imagination and time to commit. Thats it.

The occult is simply a word used to describe hidden or arcane knowledge. Sure there are countless books, teachers and teachings that can teach you rhetoric. But true mastery comes from experience and trial and error. Knowledge can be not only learned by yourself, but mastered with nothing other than your imagination, honest dedication and time dedicated to progress.

Greetings!
I do not agree intoto with what Vagrant Dreamer says. Each of us is capable of doing many things. The potential exists. All of us are able to breathe, etc. We are alive. With dedication one may be able to train oneself to handle a paintbrush or a saxophone...BUT will we be able to achieve the level of a Micheangelo or a Dizzy Guillespe (sp?)? I am capable of throwing a baseball...can I play for the Yankees? Doubtful. There is such a thing as talent and genius. Not everyone is capable of producing a work of Art. I agree that we all have various potentials that we can work with but I think it highly unlikely that all will succeed with effort. There are just some things that you will be unable to do. I love to sing but that doesn't mean I'll achieve even the beginnings of a Pavarrotti (my friends and neighbors will attest to this!)

Magic exists all around and through us. Some of us resonnate to it to the point where we can work with it though there are those of us who cannot and even should not. There are limitations in this world, like it or not. Try to find your potential strengths (and weaknesses) and make yourselves into the best that you can be. I am interested in many, many things but it is unrealistic to think that I will be the Master of them all. You may find this as self-limiting, I do not. Look around you. Not everyone will be good at everything no matter how they try. That is why we must strive for community. By blending together we achieve what we can not do alone. I hope that I've made a point. It is not to discourage one from grasping at stars but how to grasp at stars, together. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A genius of hard work can outdo a genius of any other kind. I have to agree with Vagrant Dreamer.

So i've been thinking lately, what are the requirements in order to succeed in the occult world DESPITE how diligent you approach the magickal systems?

Ok, despite hard work. I agree though with the replies above... the guy who does the pentagram ritual every single day for five years has ten times my respect than the guy who is filled with knowledge and wisdom but has never left the recliner. There used to be a picture of a fat slob passed out indoors on a lawn chair before his TV set, with the caption "He's been like this ever since he crossed the Abyss." I am impressed by diligence, no matter what form it takes or in what subject.

But aside from hard work? You mean to ask about what makes a person predisposed to magic, sort of an occult aptitude?

This is the usual way it goes in folklore. Seventh sons of seventh sons, or those born under peculiar auspices, or whose rites of passage were interrupted, or whose parents had died young, are alll things said to produce occult power. In Italy there are witches who are termed Streghe or "natural" witches, and others who must learn occult arts. There are many other designations for people of arcane purpose within myth and custom, and to me this says they recognized that to be an exceptional magician you must be exceptional in some way yourself. The most notable modern magicians, for all their intentional eccentricities, were able to express themselves with some creative discipline: they are foremost poets, artists, and others who obviously possess a great talent apart from magic itself.

What do you consider success in the occult? Since you prefer the imperative tone, list three things you consider "success in the occult" and for each give an example of someone real or imaginary to whom this success is attributed.

Greetings!



To whom was this addressed? And the asker should also be willing to provide answers to their own questions.

Success in the occult is rather subjective and can encompass a number of abstracts. Shall we brainstorm some agreed upon criteria to work with? And my first question is why the need for boiling this down to a pissing contest?



LOL! I AM that fat slob, lying on my recliner, in front of the TV! I haven't "crossed the Abyss" because I don't subscribe to the systems that employ that gradation. Magic is something that permeates my very life and being. Until a medical accident four years ago, I was very physically active and possessed a much greater vitality. Alas, I cannot claim that any longer. And in case this matters at all, I could give a flying rats ass what people think of me or my methods. I happen to love most people and enjoy reparte' with them whenever possible. Evidently there appears to be a source of irritation here. I most certainly apologize if my responses have rankled, they were not intended to do so. One failing I do possess is that since I'm roughly between 30 to 40 years older than most of you I tend to 'lecture' rather than
discourse. It's interesting that you also place yourself in a higher position. From what I've ascertained here in Forum, you are quite accomplished in the Art. Kudos! I respect your work and, if the Fates allow, I get a chance to meet you personally, I'm sure that this aspect will not be diminished. The list of members here that I'm aquainted with who deserve accolades are numerous! Enouigh posturing.

I am of the opinion that not everyone can maintain an aptitude to most of the Magical Arts. This doesn't mean that they cannot excell in psychism or in any other field of study. We are all individuals. We all possess potential(s). Diligence is a very good trait. It can make the difference between a 'C' student and an 'A' student. It is a good reflection upon ones character. It is also a very large stumbling block to most who flock to Magic. Most do so to achieve personal results without a large effort on their own part. Magic can be very hard work! It behooves one to take a rather pragmatic tenor when utilizing magic, You will be rewarded when you discover that working with the universe is far easier than bucking the system. I've found that a large percentage of people who are interested in Magic start by getting involved with either Satanic/Demonic forces rather than those of yoga and spiritism. Unbalance come easy for the rebel and for those who feel 'alienated' from the 'norm'. Thank goodness most see the error in this eventually. IMHO this is a natural state of growth in human beings. It would make an excellent topic for another thread.

So we have diligence, willingness to work hard and a certain innate ability to 'think outside the box' as it were. Also any creative spark and/or natural aptitude helps. To will, to know, to dare and to keep silent was a maxim put forth at one time as criteria for working Magic. There are many, many ideas captured within those statements...I doubt that we will explore them all.
If I've egocentrized thie last comment erroneously, forgive an old, fat slob ensconsed in his recliner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wheelchair.gif)

What I think can be considered 'success' in the magickal arts, because I think it's an interesting question - although I think it was directed more specifically at alexodeus - are 1. Control over one's thoughts and emotions, 2. The ability to quickly and efficiently manifest one's will (by quick I mean, within a moon cycle or less, depending on the objective) because let's face it if you can't actually do it, what've you accomplished? and 3. Living your life magickally.

The first I consider a mark of success in the occult not just magickally, but in the simple self-mastery aspect that I believe to be a part of the magician's path. The second is obvious, I think. By the third one I mean that to me there are dabblers, who do magick occaisionally perhaps to some good effect, but essentially isolate it to that moment, and don't really consider magick to be an integral part to their lives. They don't typically have the first quality mentioned. A successful magician, in my opinion, is one who is constantly aware, on some level, of the mystical significance of his life in some way. Whether you become very energy sensitive, and experience that energy as a part of your every day life, or you are empathic and always in tune with the subtle rhythms of emotion and intention around you - it's all basically the same thing to me, manifested in different ways. It's expanded awareness. If you can experience expanded awareness on command, but not constantly, I'd consider that a lesser success, but a stepping stone to that higher plateau.

I would say that my reasons for these three things also have to do with my own goals, though, as well, and really your success is going to depend on your expectations of what you want to accomplish with magick or the general occult sciences. If you set a goal, and reach it, then I think you're a successful magician (in the sense of someone who does magick, that is - reaching any goal I consider to be a manifestation of will, i.e., essentially magick by my definition of it).



I might have been more specific with my original pronouncement of the possibility that everyone can become a proficient magician. But what bym's said here, whether on purpose or not, is more accurate I think.

Some people are good at a lot of things, and those people are often capable of using a wide variety of magickal techniques. Whether it's psychic ability of some sort, evocation, natural magick (folk type stuff), faith healing, energy work, etc., some people will be exceptional magicians capable of exercising a wide range of tools to manifest their will in different ways.

While I don't think everyone has the potential to become such a catch-all mage - for instance some people are just too rigid in their thinking to be really excellent chaotists; some people don't have the orderly mind for classical ritual magick - pretty much everyone has a talent, so pretty much everyone can do magick - I'd argue everyone. If you're not particularly intellectual, have a bad memory, etc., but you're, say, a long distance runner for track team, you might consider yourself a dumb jock who will never understand the complicated conjurations involved in some of the grimoire work, but you have the physical fortitude to run yourself into total exhaustion and through the intention to do so enter gnosis or altered consciousness and do an incredible amount of intuitive work from that level. Not everyone can do that and it's one of the easiest (mentally speaking) methods to achieve those states.

I believe that to a large degree, it's possible that your talent is your connection to magick. The way in which you express yourself in some fashion. Every talent is essentially a talent to channel one's will - whether that's artistically, for creation of something; physically, for the manifestation of the will to command the body; or spiritually, having a natural strength of faith to accomplish miraculous things. Everyone may be wired a little differently, but one thing everyone has in common is talent. It's like Bym was saying - when we blend together we work best, not everyone is necessarily equal in their abilities, and focusing on your strengths, and understanding your weaknesses, is good advice - but even if you are not intellectually or spiritually talented in some way, you can still be good at some kind of magick. Magick isn't something you have to 'know' how to tap into. It's throughout us, it is the Law by which we exist, it's a part of not just our nature, but all nature in creation.

Even animals and plants have purposes, things they do well, some natural acuity. As humans I believe we have perhaps more venues in which to focus that part of ourselves, but it's a natural aspect of all creation.

So I would say, discovering and nurturing your talents, will make open to you some form of magickal work. And I would argue that almost anything that can be done with one kind of magick, can be done with another, even if by proxy. And by that I mean that, for instance in the physically talented gnostic shaman example, once in that heightened state, experience will allow one to make alterations to their own energy and consciousness, in the long term, which may easily compensate for a natural 'lack'. I think that once the channel of creative energy is opened, and one talent mastered, it becomes easier to master other things. There is some kind of underlying key of mastery that has to be grasped experientially to be understood. And once it is understood, it only needs to be applied even intuitively, in order to have limitless potential. Because deep down beneath the manifestation of mind, body, and spirit, that's what we've got. Only the outer casing is really limited.

peace

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Oct 11 2007, 02:02 AM

I believe we all have a innate/dormant ability to practise and exercise magic to different degrees. IMHO, due to us having spirit, and being linked to the greater force of the universe. However, the way society tends to view the concepts of magic and all its various manifestations, I believe subdue the individual from either pursuing or excercising this ability. Leave school, get a job, get married get a house etc Everything is focused externally it would seem.

Children tend to be more receptive to other "worldly" things, atmosphere's etc, much like animals in that way. Society then tends to indoctrine the "true realities" of the world. The world of magic and spirits are frowned upon by the "logical" man. They require proof or something substantial that can be verified and categorised. Even the church in some ways have lead thier concregations away from this fact. Not to mention the bible's view on practising magic.

I agree with the theory of diligent hard work to foster this talent, as with any other, but the ablilty is still there, (the interest may not be) whether its acknowleged or not. My Grandmother was a natural, and I believe my mother was too, although their individual enviroments lead to one fostering that ability, and other becoming focused on other things.

Success is a relative term. Subjective to a degree to the individual involved. Although this term appears reliant on others interpretation. You may be extremely talented at something, but if it is not recognised are you successful? If your endeavours are not readily viewable to others, are you successful? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/groan.gif)

Loki

This is addressed specifically to Axelodeus, who writes:

So again, what ARE the requirements?.....

Make a post below showing whether you have all of these ( or not) and how it has impacted your magickal lifestyle.

Before we discuss what is required for success, we ought to have some idea of what would constitute success. Perhaps he (or you, or anyone) would define success as flying around manifesting cash and striking down your enemies with lightning. On the other hand someone might describe success as enjoying a simple lifestyle with supportive associates and personal delights. Still others define success differently, and all these have different requirements.

I think it's unwise to pin any general condition of life to one particular cause. Your job, your occult study, your creative pursuits, the influence of those around you, and flat chance all play a part in making a person's life the way it is. I believe it is better to look at individual acts of magic and measure whether or not they had a beneficial effect for you. If your spells make your life worse, they may have worked, but it's not what I call success. On the other hand, no matter how apparently insignificant your spell objective, if you see it come to pass and are able to be happy about it, then you have done well. Even if magic plays only a small role in your life, if you are able to consistently use it to your benefit, by my estimation you are a successful magician.

BYM: in response to your believing you need to be sorry for a lecturing tone, and that has anything to do with age: I don’t agree.

In a forum, discourse is often better in a lecturing tone. Complete thoughts are better then one line responses.

As to the topic at hand. I don’t think it has really been touched. Everyone has said what their experience tells them is necessary, based either on themselves or those they choose to surround themselves with.

I am one of those people who truly believe magick is done by most everyone most every day. Call it a fluffy bunny sentiment if you must, but I really can not be much further from that.

I think the only requirement to be successful in the occult arts is the will to have more awareness and control in magick. Many other things help, but that is all that is “necessary”. It does not even take strong will.

I would love to say all the positive attributes I think I possess. But the most measurable results in magic I have ever personally witnessed, was performed by an semi-idiotic 60 year old woman in poor health, who was illiterate, and not really caring of others, including her pets. She cleared 600 acres of organic corn infested with Corn Earworms in an afternoon stroll and some hand fulls of powder thrown into the wind.

The powder contained sulphur, lime (mineral not fruit), and some bone meal, chemically it would be sulphur, lime and phosphorus along with carbon. The sulpher and lime would both be pesticides but we are talking a 1000th of the dosage needed for 100 acres.

She walked chanted and threw the powder, laughed at me for not believing this would work, walked more chanted threw powder, asked me questions….she asked me to call the wind twice (surprised me, the first time as that was not something I advertised and everything I said would have been the equivalent of a skeptic in Magick period).

Now she was a person who had a family gift, defiantly had the sight. But she like many of her ilk in the area where magickal mercenaries who you did not want in your home, and whose families didn’t even like. They where usually bitter. Their gift was as much a curse to them as anything else. They did not like other magickal people, except the young.

She said the worms would be gone after two nights, and they where. She also had a few other comments she made where strangely prophetic.

These are the people I think of first when someone says witch, there is no rede for these people. Except in extreme cases, they will do most anything for money.

One can say that this was just the show they displayed to others, not really, I had a very intimate relationship with another who was much more well known of and much better classically and magically educated, but the coldness to others in general was the same. Although she did take better care of her pets.

Other aspects like independent thought, are subjective. If they are taught magick as happenstance, as the most normal thing in the world…they take it on as if learning to dust and mop properly.