This hasn't really formulated in my mind enough yet to become a theory, so it's more just a jumble of thoughts I wanted to get some input on. I came across a few theories in various sources where people believed that someone could teleport physically with enough practice by astral projecting and then pulling their physical body to them. I also came across a website while researching something completely unrelated - that is, underground tunnels in cities that gangs used for fast escapes. I found a lot of information speculating the existance of some underground tunnels in San Fransisco, although they were never found after the gigantuous earthquake. As to the original point, theres a theory that the tunnels didnt physically exist, but there were secret rooms with certain metals and gemstones used for conducting enough energy to teleport out, using some magical laws of chinese alchemy. Site is here if you want to read the less scattered summary:
http://www.sfgate.com/offbeat/city.html
ANYWAY, I'm just wondering if anyone thinks this would be possible, or the theory of summoning your body to you with astral projection has any possibilities. Also, I know a lot of people agree with the concept of astrally travelling in time on the spiritual plane. If one's able to teleport through astral projection, in theory it would also be possible to pull your body through time, therefore time travelling physically. Pretty sketchorific stuff. Not sure what my opinions are on any of this, but any others are welcome. Thanks

PS - Not sure if this belongs in this forum, so move if it should be elsewhere

Teleportation, imo, is just another word for transportation. Essentially the astral body is a vehicle built from will and powered by the physical body that transports the mind of an indiviudal in alternate plains of existance. If you rewrote that sentance with the word teleportation in place of transportation it'd mean just about the same thing. Even more so in how travel actually works in the astral realm. At least for me, when I move in an astral state I basically just pop up in one place or another. Generally I also fly or float but even then travel tends to be very fast for me. Only if I willfully slow myself down and litterally anchor myself to a spot do I ever walk in my astral surroundings. I'm sure there have been acceptions though.

You mentioned travel through space in time. From my experience the laws of physics sort of blend together and have no real meaning beyond personal perception and observance of them. Thus one could easily travel through time and space. The limmitation I see is in experience. A more practiced individual will be able to remain in an astral state longer than a novice. Thus they would be able to travel farther - understand this doesn't mean travel in litteral distance, rather in time. The longer one is in the astral plains the more they will see and experience thus the greater distance they will have gone. As far as traveling through time itself its really immaterial because time in the AP moves in all directions.

Key point in mind, imo, is that space and time are subjective in the astral plains, almost as if the laws of physics there are inverted, no real gravity, space is limmitless and endless, time moves in all directions. Perhaps the idea that this unvierse coexists with another opposite to this one is actually right. Our simple minds have just doubed it the astral plains.

Well like I said, it wasn't a conclusion. More I was looking for one, but didn't have enough information to form one. But thanks for your input:)

If it were possible, I actually don't think it would be that complicated - you wouldn't have to know the position of every molecule of your physical body, the morphogenic field, a sort of energetic template for your physical form, takes care of that. Imagine that each molecule has a very specific frequency due to it's placement within the field, so when the particles that make up the molecules vanish from one spot and reappear in another, they return to physical space in their context to one another through the medium of the field.

That's assuming that it's necessary for all the molecules to come apart like that. It's possible that teleportation is matter of restructuring one's context within the quantum field - instead of popping apart and passing through time and space, you just take time and space out of the equation, the your coordinates in the field change, and so your experience changes - instead of experiencing the information of 'this' part of the field, you experience 'that' part of the field. To outside observers, assuming observers wouldn't lock your quantum signature in place which they probably would, you'd just not be there anymore.

However, we do know that a particle can vanish from one place and reappear in another - physical teleportation on the quantum level. So, real teleportation could be a matter of generating a focused fluctuation of energy which 'bumps' the localized field that your own field is interacting with to another location.

Bad things could still happen, but I think that because of the nature of energies within the field, and the fact that you'd never reach out for a context of 'stuck in a wall' they're less likely than you might think.

Not that any of that is anything I can say anything about for sure - I don't know anyone who can teleport and so far I haven't figured it out either.

peace

Quantum theory leans towards every mage's taste - the taste of magick itself. Quantum theory isn't a system of magick, it's becoming a logical, scientific basis for how the universe, consciousness, and even magick itself, functions. Naturally we're a long way from developing technology along the lines of technosorcery sci-fi stuff, but it'll happen eventually.

In the meantime, magicians are doing with consciousness what we'll one day be doing with technology on a broader platform. Or trying, anyway, and there's no saying that technology and magick can't work together where it's necessary.

When it comes to teleportation specifically, I think the key factor is one's state of consciousness. I don't think it's something you can master just by knowing a theory and concentrating on it. You've got to expand your consciousness, and live in a transcendent state of being, just like with any of the other miraculous achievements. I don't think it could be described as a skill of any particular tradition of magick. The only reference to ice magick i've ever heard was a reference to a tradition of magick which has some kind of norse foundation. Whatever floats your boat, though.

peace

That has to do with morphgensis or the impact on variables shaping biological things. I should mention that I am a sophmore and that microbiology is my major in college, but let us not get into that. The molecular examples of this would be morphgens (soluable molecules that carry and diffuse signals). It has been discovered that when an electron reaches a certain state, it can not be measured. It simply vanishes from detection and that is a group of single sub atomic particles. It is not even an entire atom. A single particle is different than a human body. You can not take time and space out of the equation, either.

The rest is a miss application of the quantum field theory, the observer affect, and Heinsburg Uncertanity Principle. You left out coherence and discoherence. You left out the classical systems in place that give an object its properties. You glossed over the biological and physical paradoxes. There is no such thing that, as of yet, as locality. One thing can not be instantly transported or transmitted to another location with such factors as time affecting not it. Light can't even do that.

There is no such thing as an energy template for the body, unless you would like to argue the subtle body angle, but that has not been proven of yet and I highly doubt that it would have a physical impact. If that was the case, that a person's amputated arm should know to grow back. The cells would know where to go and rearrange themselves in such a pattern. Just sew up a person's arm and they would be good to go. The cells would follow the "template" that the subtle body provides.

And you can't use Quantum Mechanics to prove or justify "magickal" thoughts.

As far as the phasing through the astral that is another different beast. You would have to do a complete transmutation, which I don't think is possible.

This post has been edited by telempath: Nov 21 2007, 12:24 AM

I saw a show a while back that basically said if you could create a computer powerful enough to commit the entire genome of an individual to a hard drive you could basically use that to copy them. Of course you'd still need some sort of matter converter that could take a person, strip them down to nothing but bits of information and then reconfigure matter within a small area into that person at a different location. But if it could be done effectively, say you have infanite energy, teleporting would basically be able to clone people. Imagine an army powered by teleporters, it be nearly unbeatable.

What I wonder is does a person who goes through one of these teleporters come back out the same person? I mean you essentially die unless your own concsiousness can also be retained as a sort of artificial intelligence. You would come back out and basically be yourself, have the same memories, brain waves patterns and all else. Obviously a single consciousness cannot exist in multiple bodies unaided. Still though its interesting stuff to consider - and scientist think this stuff is possible, just at immeasurably high energy costs and really advanced tech.

That is what I said.



I wish I could teleport... I wish that I could fly, I am really hurting for em. I am not going to try and kill myself trying (yes it us quite possible to kill yourself and get no where close).

I shall say this and say no more. I don't think anyone would have the power to do this and it would probably require a machine anyways, but I go for the most probable way of teleporting by shifting planes and dimensions.

This post has been edited by telempath: Nov 24 2007, 01:59 AM

One interesting thought I had about astral projection is, the amount of information that composes a thought is exceedingly small. Thoughts are not made of neurons, or electrons, or membrane differentials, but rather the vague synergistic variations in the position of said electrons chemicals and such. To quantify a thought in terms of joules you would quickly go below the minimum amount of energy that can exist without running into spooky quantum effects, effectively it'd be a photon redshifted so far into nothingness we couldn't even detect its energy. The vast majority of our brains and bodies is composed of "wasted" information, most of it just bulking us up and setting the stage for thinking, the barest, tiniest tiny minimum fraction of that our actual thoughts. So how much energy would it take to teleport a thought? How big a wormhole would there need to be for a thought to fit through?

Of course we can't teleport our thoughts, since otherwise you could put your thoughts into my brain without actually talking to me. But if we could, that's telepathy right there. Maybe something prevents us...? Maybe even the tiniest amounts of information cannot teleport?

That makes no sense... Neurons are brain cells, so therefore, they would not be thoughts, of course. The charge that flows through the neurons to create what is called the Action Potential comes from sodium and potassium ion pumps within the soma of the neuron. This generates a charge which flows through the neuron and releases chemicals. The charge is somewhat electric in itself. That is pretty much a flow of electrons or ions (I can not really remember), therefore, a thought is composed of types of electrons. Furthermore, thoughts normally use various different parts of the brain at the same time, which activates such and such part. This leads to an abundance of activity. The brain is a bee hive of activity. It is always going round and round. Check EEG scans or other types of brain scans.

You are talking about the instantaneous transmission of something. That is locality and non locality, which has not or can not be proven to exist at this time (we lack the technology). That is a common theme that is rooted in sci fi.

You actually have various types of neurons. One is called the Glial cell.



They remove the "wasted information" from the nervous system and body... I am not sure what you mean besides that. Most of human neurology and physiology is devoted to living not thinking. The bulk of the nervous system is dedicated to keeping the body running, relaying information from the enviorment, and so on and so forth.

What you said made no sense. It has been observed that when electrons reach a certain point they can not measured anymore and they seem to change location, but they do not know if it is because it is too small to be measured or if it teleports. Not enough evidence.

Yeah I know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) I wish it would exist for at least little things like thoughts though. Instantaneous transmission is instantaneous communication.

Well, how about an example. In 4 gigabytes, there is approximately 35 units of Shannon entropy. Assuming that's equivalent to physical entropy (a hotly debated subject among physicists I'm pretty sure), that means destroying 4 gigabytes of information gives about enough energy to melt 4.8e-22 moles of water at 0 degrees Celsius, melting a whopping 290 water molecules. I can't say a thought can be captured in 4 gigabytes, but for instance all of Wikipedia would fit in 5.49 gigabytes. But each neuron is made of billions of atoms, so much more than 290 it boggles the mind. So most of those atoms aren't actually part of the thought; they set up the environment in which the thought appears as a small part of that environment.

It's like a computer professor told me once: CPUs are highly efficient heaters, that occasionally, rarely produce a computer instruction or two.

I don't see how what I say makes no sense. But then I wouldn't be able to see that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/juggle.gif)

Electron tunneling isn't so much teleportation as it is pushing the lower bounds of what we consider to be position in space. You can't pin down your exact location, since once you try to do it on the level of an electron things get fuzzy and jiggy, and the math works out that sometimes the electron is on the other side of a wall without actually having an opening in that wall. So that means if you make your wires toooo small and close together, electrons will tunnel between 'em, even if the insulation between the wires doesn't have any holes.

It sounds like you knew that, but I just want to make sure nobody's confused on this issue. Just remember the next time you're leaning against a wall that's 4 nanometers thick, chances are some of your electrons are occasionally on the other side of the wall just a teeny tiny bit. It's so thin, it becomes hard to say whether something in contact with it is on one side or the other. Teleportation is a bit different than that, since it involves travelling much farther than 4 nanometers.

An electron is not an atom. It is a sub atomic particle. A neuron is just a cell. Cells are made up of carbon molecules and atoms and everyone should know that those are alot of atoms to create one cell. I am trying to find the connection between the composition of a neuron in terms of atoms, the treatment of electrons as whole atoms, and the brain and/or a computer acting as a heater in relation to teleportation. You are talking about the energy produced by the brain and a thought. One thought is accompanied by another and works with various parts of the cerebral cortex all at the same time.




You are going into quantum mechanics here and the inability to accurately measure a sub atmoic particle (that starts going into the Uncertainty areas). Everything else besides the fact that you can not really pin point there location is also inaccurate and I fail to see the connection to teleportation.

Here's what I hate about college education. The people getting them seem to believe it's an objective education. It isn't. In college you learn what is popular, politically acceptable, and mainstream. The stuff that's not mainstream yet but is taught in small venues anyway, is that which is deemed politically safe to teach and hopefully one day expand upon. Just because they teach it in college doesn't mean it is either true or complete.

A single particle is only different from the human body in degrees. It's a system, like the human body. An atom is a system, a molecule is a system, a cell is a system, a body is a system. One thing that you learn in the course of hermetic study and practice, is that what is within reflects what is without - and it's a philosophy that works, again, and again, and again. So i'm inclined to believe if a single particle can vanish, and two particles at great distances can affect one another - seemingly - exchanging information faster than light - then the possibility of a larger system likewise vanishing or communicating across a vast distance, is a difference of degree, not possibility.



Pardon my inappropriate use of the word, I was not referencing the morphoGENETIC field. And of course, Sheldrake only proposed a theory of the morphic field, which is what I meant, but used the wrong word. However, he was not the first to propose this idea, and it shows up in various systems of subtle biology, most notably the vedic and kabbalistic systems. You may be more scientifically minded, but I am a magician - time and space don't factor in as absolutely for me as they do for you, and the Morphic field was something I discovered on my own before I encountered it in the course of my research into metaphysics. So, I take it as granted that there is such a thing.

Of course, that isn't to say I'm not affected by time or space - of course I am. However, I moment can be stretched into a minute, hours can pass in the blink of an eye. A distance that should take two hours to traverse can take only 30 minutes, without disrupting the flow of time and space surrounding the individual and the path they take. My conclusions - consciousness is more a part of the equation, more so than time and space not being in the equation.



A: The idea of what I think is being called the 'Zero Point Field' or some such - I called it the quantum field perhaps inappropriately, that was several months ago and I'm a little better educated recently - did not originate with quantum mechanics, it was a mystical idea first - along with the majority of phenomenon in the field of physics. Scientists are not discovering things, they are defining, codifying, and explaining things, and pretending they were the first to figure it out. M theory, String theory, Quantum mechanics, all of them are particularly mystical for 'science'.

B: One might argue there is no such thing as mind-scanning, telekinesis, and various other paranormal phenomenon - what's-his-face with the Randy Foundation, million dollar challenge thing, doesn't seem to believe in them, and he's been doing more research and looking around for them than just about any independent individual in the field. Lots of others follow suit. Yet, you seem to believe in them? Because you have experienced them, yes? It's perfectly fine not to believe in anything you haven't experienced, but having a closed mind about the possibility, and more than that, purposely misinterpreting the function of such things as the subtle bodies, or the Template Body... well, there were lots of other theories considered outright crazy until they were proven. And the ones that do get proven tend to reflect far more ancient, more primitive, expressions of the same ideas. So, I would not discount the idea of a subtle aspect of our biology, or a template body, so quickly.

C: I have a layman's understanding of quantum physics, and have applied my understanding to developing energywork, magickal technique, and expansion of consciousness - it has worked for me so far. But as for this subject, I have suggested that quantum theory in any way proves or justifies anything magickal - but you've said that again and again on this forum, so I'm thinking it something you're fond of identifying and saying. All I offered was a hint, a theory in the works - that hasn't even been proven, and just because the math works doesn't prove anything - which offers one possible venue along which such a thing could be possible. Magick, when it works, works regardless of the justification, but having a researchable way to expand one's perspective on the subject ties directly into how magick works for the individual - it's about consciousness.



You do believe in the astral, but not the template body... what do you think the astral is?

http://www.theresonanceproject.org/home.htm

I'm not suggesting this site in any way proves or suggests a means of teleportation, however, the articles there, and some of the other writings of this Nassim Haramein, do give some interesting insight into his theories, which again find reflections in ancient texts, particularly kabbalistic ones, regarding the nature of reality.


peace

I think astral teleportation is something like traveling to the moon in an airplane. At first glance the idea seems plausible, just use this vehicle you use to move around in to move you somewhere else. Then you discover you don't have enough energy for that far a distance, the forces that worked well enough when you were close to the earth decrease the further you go away from it, and the pilot doesn't seem to be able to maintain consciousness after passing a certain height. Any of which can cause you to speedily return back to the earth.

And with astral projection, you and your target are not in the same 3D space; you're split into two parts, with one of them as active a sack of potatoes; and getting close enough to exert some sort of force on your physical body has a tendency to suck you back into it.

• Moving your physical body from the astral, while astral projecting.
  What's the mechanism for the transfer of force from one space to another? What's there to prevent your body from being ripped apart in the process by an equal and opposite reaction on the physical? How do you move something physical to the astral?
  
• Moving your body from the physical, to the astral, and back.
  How do you move any object to from one space into another? If your physical body is in the astral, how do you reconnect to the physical? If your physical body is in the astral, where is your astral body?
  
• Using a computer to recreate your entire body in another location on an atomic level.
  Even if the machine were perfect, could its programmers be perfect too? How many copies could it make at a time? Would each clone suddenly cause another perspective to pop into your awareness or would each be as autonomous as yourself?

For me, this line of thinking represents the airplane-to-the-moon plan. The same issues for physical-astral transportation are evident in virtual-physical transportation. You can't move a virtual avatar using your physical body into physical space, and back to virtual space.
You could, however, render it into the physical and then scan it back into the virtual system. Taking a screenshot and then loading it onto you computer, for example; or printing a picture and then scanning that piece of ink covered paper. You can sculpt a model of something you saw in the astral, and you can form things in the astral like that on the physical. For something to exist, it has to have somewhere to exist.


Hmmm... I'd guess that if your body in physical space were destroyed, any bodies in a different space would still be there. I wonder what we are, if not spaces, materials, objects or bodies? We seem capable of creating or connecting to them.

In short, the mental internet. A landscape created from the shared minds of people traversed by the consiousness of "astral traveler'". This comes from my observation of the fact that I kind project my mind outward in a type of "astral projection" without leaving my body. It is how I link to people and how I percieve objects and events away from myself. From my view in that state, there is a big void of blackness. Each person's mind is a light or star. This light or star pulses out energy in the form of emotions and thoughts that clump around them sometimes in like mini spheres. Each star on its own has its on finger print or location. When I wish to contact them, I simply project a part of my consiousness to that light and scan the energy being generated, the mini spheres, or reach into the "star" itself. This is somewhat how I am able to dream walk. The person creates a dream scape that appears to me to be like a little mini world. I simply just reach through it. I can cruise this blackness or whatever you want to call it without astral projecting in the traditional sense, but it seems to be a space created from the emanations of consiousness of the human mind. That is also partially how I am able to deep probe into a person's mind... It also allows me to get the general idea of what is going on in a location. I am getting better with the remote viewing, but generally I can pick up activity from a certain area by projecting my mind there in that fashion.

I believe that the astral body is the human consiousness fully projected away from the body shaped by self perception and that the properties that are given to it are shaped by mental ideas and self perception. To me, astral forms exist as pin points of consiousness. That is influenced by my belief in the brain and nervous system generating a field of its own which contains the "consiousness experience" (check the cemi field theory) and that the field acts upon the mind, therefore, the consiousness that is being projected is nothing more than this field expanding. I am not sure if I believe in subtle bodies. At the moment I am even iffy about the existence of a soul.