Without following any strict code of approach like the Goetia or other grimores, I have been experiencing contact with one demon from the Goetia with a fantastic degree of success.

= Approach:
1. Treating the demon with respect and honor
2. Chanting name of demon, visual focus on sigil
3. Incensing sigil with fragrance of plant listed with demon's planet
4. Daily thanks for past favors
5. Placing sigil under pillow at night
6. Offering wine, fresh plant listed with demon's planet, and water on a plain altar
7. Lighting candles, black or of the specific color of the demon's planet
8. Offerings of personal energy
9. Drawing the sigil and using it in artwork for others to see
10. Private sigil drawing in art for devotion

= Environmental observations:
1. A sweet smell, at times overpowering, comes and goes
2. Ripples through the air, like something moving through water
3. Pockets of what appears to be heat vapor as the type you see rising from hot objects like pavement, in midair moving and fading away
4. Candles rising and crackling noises during meditation
5. Crackling noises or popping in the air without candles lit
6. Sudden cold areas in the room, usually near my arms, face

= Communication Methods From Demon:
1. All through dreams, information given to me beyond my wildest expectations, dream images range from obvious to heavy symbolism
2. Odd coincidences in real life which usually point directly to the demon to some degree

I don't believe in "dabbling" in magick, this is not idle amusement, I've done my research, which is not to suggest a convoluted ego. I note and appreciate written cautions against befriending demons and not using protective measures [meaning I use no circle, I never banish, I do not call upon any godform or higher power before, during, or after communicating with the demon]. I am not a practicing Satanist nor do I belong to any Satanic group or order, that includes the recent web-popular "demonolatry" bunch. I'm not knocking such groups but I wish to make this point clear as some may ask if I call upon Satan as some texts describe, I do not. My devotion towards this particular demon from the Goetia has been on-going for several years. During the early contacts, I inquired to another demon from the Goetia about a matter and received an instant response that night in a dream, followed by another dream which was disturbing and made it appear that I had offended the demon I so honor by contacting another for advice instead of him. Since then, I have only maintained contact with the one demon I had so devoted my attention to and the rewards in dreams have been miraculous.

I evoked the demon a couple of times but have not since and never to a degree where I could hear or see it, I blame this on spending no more than an hour on them, an error on my behalf. Honestly, I felt I was pushing it by trying evocation at this point, feeling it best to continue with light contact for several additional months. My main communication is through the Approach outlined above. I plan on evoking to visible manifestation. A recent dream was a scroll with writing on it and a line thrust before me, which leads me to believe the demon wishes to make a long term pact with me. Should anyone wish to comment on my experiences, as briefly as I have stated them thus far and perhaps share any tips on evocation before I attempt? I'm especially interested in ImperialArts' view, respecting of course his appreciation for doing things by the book in his approach.

Greetings Leechmob!
Well....why ask for suggestions if you already know it all? No offense, please. You are in serious danger, IMHO, and you are courting disaster. This is merely my opinion. Please reconsider what appears to be suicidal attempts. I wish you well but cannot condone your actions due to my conscience and belief system...perhaps you will find someone here who will. Everything that I've seen and experienced in the past fifty years of practice tells me that your approach is suicide. I apologize for the dogmatic reaction. This will be my final posting on this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/head_hurts_kr.gif)

NOTE: I lie...I did post again! 05/27/09

And this didn't send up any kind of a red flag for you? Have you considered the possible consequences for the eventuality that you might want to at some point accomplish something outside the purview of this particular demon's influence?

I very rarely deal with demonic entities when it comes to evocation, but when I do, I somewhat sympathize with your attitude generally - while one must always make it clear who is in control, in my opinion, I see no reason to be belligerent with them, and usually burn herbs or incense of their preference for them, though more as an aid to getting what I want done.

Now, no offense to you and your approach, but a lot of people seem to think that just because an entity isn't giving you sores, causing horrible visions, manifesting poltergeist phenomenon, and harming your loved ones, they must not be such a bad entity. I've heard the argument before that demons only act out in proper evocation because of the process itself. But, consider the nature of the demon itself - a demon's nature is base and materialistic. It represents the bondage of the physical plane. It doesn't have to be mean to you to accomplish its purpose. Why are there no demons who's purview is to grant transcendental consciousness? Why is it that every demons who's purpose you read about is something like, "Grants treasure from far away" or "incites the love of men in women" or, "can furnish and army with weapons."

I'm not even going to suggest that a demon is intent on ruining you, possessing you or some such, because as long as you keep in line with it's materialistic nature I think you'll probably be fine. The problem is going to be when you want to, or are in a position to, start growing spiritually. The advice and guidance this being is going to give you will, by the definition of it's nature (it doesn't have a choice, and isn't going to give you special secrets because it likes you, any more than you can sprout wings and fly, or digest saw dust) steer you away from higher spiritual pursuits and towards an ultimately unfulfilling materialistic existence. And it's in the demon's best interest to keep you just on the edge of contentment. To take away bits of what you gain by yourself, and always give you not-quite-enough.

That's not even speculating on the karmic nature of pacts, and where you consciousness will go after you die. Bardon, for instance, believed that making a pact with a demon meant that upon death, before reincarnation, you work off your debt in their sphere of existence.

One may research serial killers until they are blue in the face, know all about their personality type, know what they are capable of, and then be taken in by the really clever, witty, understanding person they meet at a starbucks, who seems to be such a great listener, and who always knows just what to say - that is, until they take you home, strap you onto a table and do terrible things to you. Just because an entity puts on a pleasant show, does not mean it is good for you.

Just think about what a demon is, having done all your research, and what it means for you to interact with it in this way. These aren't just empty acts that mean nothing more than what you intend them to mean. All of this interaction is symbolic, and that symbolism may not seem to mean much physically, but what it means astrally, spiritually, is even more important due to it's more enduring and permanent nature. (more permanent than the physical, that is)

peace

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Jan 6 2008, 02:58 PM

Hello Vagrant Dreamer,


Worth remembering, I think.


I'm curious why you chose to ignore the many Goetia spritis which can be used for things as teach effective
divination, moral, philosophy, languages, sciences etc, not to mention "things both Secret and Divine, and of
the Creation of the World".

Also see Michael Ford's writings, where is described how to use the Goetia spirits for HGA work. I don't use
his methods personally but he certainly has extensive experience with the spirits.


Are you not confusing your own experiences in one "existence" with it being the one and only way of experiencing it?
There are many people who are very happy with life without going down any spiritual paths whatsoever.
There are unfortunately also many people who dedicate their lives to spiritual seekings and yet they seem very unhappy.

Personally, I want a nice material life, and a nice spiritual life as well. A balanced life, that is.


Now, that's a pretty interesting statement and I would say quite clever, if it is true.

Do you have any experiences pointing to this being the way of how Goetia spirits ALWAYS give results? That they never give the full results, only part of it? Some clear examples of experiences can be convincing enough, I'm not interested in any evidence (as I happen to believe that magick can never be proven in any way).

What does the rest of the Panel of this Forum think about the above quoted statement?

Grab

Aside from Sacred-Magick.org, I find it very difficult to find any intelligent discussion of the Goetia or serious workings with demons. The closest I have come to witnessing calm, interesting discussions of this type was when I was skimming old posts in some alt.magick groups. The few other forums I have discovered which mention the Goetia are either short on details, discussions which quickly turn into fighting matches, or any useful content quickly vanishes through mysterious events never fully disclosed and no useful info. remaining. I'm beginning to wonder, based on my experiences, if Goetic studies lead to such a success the useful information is blacked out on purpose. Considering the relationship of many of the notable occultists of old and their interest in math, medicine, and study of the nature and workings of the world in general, some curious world events (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip) lead me to consider the possibility of goetic studies continuing at higher levels than your average armchair evoker. Back on-topic, thank you Sacred-Magick.org.

In addition to the "Environmental observations" I listed above, I do receive odd but not disturbing feelings of being lightly "touched" sometimes, sometimes like a point of a pencil but soft not hard moving across my skin. I had never felt anything like this prior to my experience with the Goetia, at first I dismissed it as nerves. To add to the "Approach" section, I have noticed very recently, as in the past few weeks, in addition to placing the demon's sigil beneath my pillow at night before sleep, I have sometimes chosen instead to place it directly against my back near the base of my neck, for some reason it begins to feel very warm, tingly, and provides an almost erotic rush. My mind often blanks as I meditate on the sigil in my mind and drift off to sleep. What is the effect, symbolic or realised, to applying the sigil to this area for large amounts of time? Perhaps a psychological effect of closeness with my mind making up these sensations? I could dismiss it as such just as with the sensations on skin and nerves mentioned above. In all previous experiences with other religions and deities or spirits, I've never received such "proof", if you will, of visualized external and bodily phenomena.

@bym:
"Greetings Leechmob!
Well....why ask for suggestions if you already know it all? No offense, please. You are in serious danger"

Hello bym! Of course, I do not know it all, no offense taken. I hope I did not come across as offensive, but I said, "I've done my research, which is not to suggest a convoluted ego" to allow the reader to clearly see I am not suggesting to be an expert. I honor your response and invite you gracefully to continue to add to this discussion with your experiences should it merit your time. If I am offending you by any attempt to draw you out of your decision to have made a final post, I apologise, but please know I am interested in further discussion with you on this matter should you wish to kindly change your mind. How would evoking the demon to physical manifestation at this point be suicidal? Let us look at this from a different perspective: the god of the Bible. No offense intended to believers of any particular faith, I'm juggling this as a comparison as it relates to spirits falling, heh, under the related religion.

The god of the Bible demanded blood sacrifices in the Old Testament, killed many humans, flooded the Earth, threw humans into chaos when they became too unified (tower of Babel), punished one human harshly for offering plants instead of animals, relied on a scapegoat (Satan) to punish humans (like Job) with terrible fury instead of doing the job himself, and so on. If one believes some or all of the demons from the Goetia are fallen angels, are they not justified in their falling away from such a creature? Read in the Old Testament how wrathful this god was, his very appearance by description could easily be said to have been demonic, creating terror. The sight of his angels instilled fear in people who saw them, leading them to say, "be not afraid" in their greetings to humans.

If the Bible tells me anything early on, it tells me that that god used his angels before they fell to punish and torture man, whether by tests of faith or mad scientist experiments, he still used them to whatever end. What evidence is there to suggest he does not use them, his "good" angels, to this end today? Are demons and Satan facing the blame for what god's angels may be doing on behalf of god only to be exorcised in the name of god? What are vaccines made from? Quite ironic if you think about that one. In the New Testament everything under the sun was blamed on Satan and demons. I did find it ironic that Jesus honored the demons request to send them into the pigs, which they then drowned and likely ate. Perhaps the others who said Jesus commanded by powers of demons were not far off after all.

But that's another story, my intent here is not to delve into the Bible as there are unlimited ways to interpret scripture from any religion. When you look at it this way, how can the fallen angels be the ones in the wrong here? How can they be the evil ones? Let us assume they are the evil ones, how does their creator measure up on the scale of morality? Should he not be the one sent to an eternal lake of fire? Why would a loving god create animals to be killed in his name which viciously hunt each other down and eat each other, and some of his creatures which parade animal skins as trophies and mindlessly devour their meat without more thought than it takes to squeeze a ketchup bottle? We could also compare the fallen angels to other gods of the past, including the ones of more primal religions whether they are similar to or in reality the gods themselves or different faces of them, or whether it's worse to approach a fallen angel with devotion rather than a primal god of old, but again I'm trying to make a comparison here within the realm of the religion(s) these spirits are claimed to originate from.

bym, if you suggest my approach is wrong, what would you suggest I do now were I to follow your advice? Thank you.

@Imperial Arts:
"Which spirit?"

It is one of the Earls. I have read your generous entries on your live journal, which I hope sees more updates as it is wonderful stuff, so know that I know you go into detail and name specific entities at the beginning, but this is all I can say, as per relationship with said entity, I mean no offense in only mentioning the title.

@Imperial Arts:
"Can you describe some of the things you have gained from the spirit, apart from communication with it?"

Deep insight into future events, often showing them exactly as they are to and eventually happen within days or weeks usually sooner than later, events appearing sooner are closer, events appearing later appear farther away (if the dreams do not appear exactly as they occur, they are shrouded in symbolism which is impressive as the ordinary joe would likely dismiss fanciful dreams for fantasy and nothing more, sometimes portions of the symbolic dreams I have to work out but it never requires too much effort as the demon is quite brilliant in the use of symbolism), warnings of events to happen in the next day or days ahead, revealing answers in dreams in response to direct questions asked when I was awake, healing any cold, fever, flu within hours without requiring medication (though playing devil's advocate I've also read about demons causing sickness in order to appear miraculous in healing it, so who knows), lessons on self-improvement. Thus far I have chosen to make only a few short requests of the demon to be revealed in dreams, not wanting to treat him as a wish-granter (have you ever seen the movie wishmaster?), but as an entity I respect. Every other detail he has revealed to me has been of his initiative, which I have always thanked him for, and thank him here now in public for.

One odd event which I'm not sure how to interpret occurred, I had a dream which involved objects which would later injure me through an accident the next day, leaving a lasting scar on me. In another dream later I was shown this wound with worm shaped bright energy shooting through it, and was told something about this being where power originated. Anyone able to shed light on this would be helpful, the only possible thing I could see this event as was forewarning or a mark of some sort being imprinted on purpose. When I think about it, in the beginning there were between three to five small accidents where I would receive a cut enough to bleed slightly, or experience random nosebleeds I had never had before. The scar and the dreams before and after stump me as to the why and what for.

I have noticed other odd events pointing to the demon in my waking life, too numerous to add here in any short amount of time. One interesting note: others can smell the same scent as I have noticed, the sweet, musky odor which comes and goes. This is funny, I always read about angels giving off a sweet scent when they are around to a certain degree, and that demons always gave off a terrible odor. Thoughts?

@Imperial Arts:
"If you were to make a "long-term" pact with this spirit, what sort of advantages and securities would you want that to include?"[i]

This is something I haven't worked through yet, as I have read time and again of the warnings of pacts with entities and loopholes they appear to exploit when entering one without proper wording. Great Faust! This is another reason I asked for advice since the presentation of the scroll in a dream led me to believe the spirit was interested in a pact, being as our courting to date has been smooth.

@Imperial Arts:
[i]"Unless I am mistaken, you are the one who decided what things to use in your approach. Has the spirit suggested anything further for you to do, or anything that you should not do? "

Correct, I decided on the approach, and the results have shown I haven't failed to receive notice, contact, and results. The spirit asked for wine, which I have given, after I had been offering water to it for months. When I initially failed to purchase wine for it, it showed me in a dream about making wine with fruit, but I went ahead and bought some wine rather than trying some ghetto approach to wine making. When I did ask him if there were an easier way to communicate with it, as in in a waking state and directly conversing with it, I had a dream that night of a pig running around before falling in mud, and I had never had a dream of a pig or pigs before. I did not wake up and throw a bunch of bacon on the altar, so I hope I did not offend it by failing to answer this request, if it did in fact want some pork. (Luke 8:33, anyone?) I can't set out anything which will attract ants or other bugs, I limit my food and drink offerings to wine, other expensive drinks containing alcohol, large glasses of water, and plants related to the spirit's planet which I grow myself. I can't remember there being anything the spirit asked me not to do, but I believe this would be something to address the spirit with in the future evocation.

@Imperial Arts:
"Do you really want to have this demon as your god, or is this activity just a way to arrange for assistance from a spirit you believe to be powerful?"

I have not ruled out the former or the latter. Thank you Imperial Arts.

@Vagrant Dreamer:
"And this didn't send up any kind of a red flag for you? Have you considered the possible consequences for the eventuality that you might want to at some point accomplish something outside the purview of this particular demon's influence?"

Excellent point and questions, thank you. Yes, but being new to the Goetia, I thought it best as I have read elsewhere, to move slowly with one demon at a time rather than bouncing around. Was I misinformed? I appreciate your kind attention and points in the remainder of your post, a very nice read, thank you.

@Vagrant Dreamer:
"Why is it that every demons who's purpose you read about is something like, "Grants treasure from far away" or "incites the love of men in women" or, "can furnish and army with weapons.""

Satan offering Jesus the world for a bended knee, Buddha and Mara, etc. Your points in your paragraph and really worth mentioning in this thread, it's true. I have always favored spiritual development vs. feeding materialistic desires, but I suppose when compared to my past experiences with spirituality, various deities, and the whole lot of it, my encounters with the Goetia have been so shockingly rewarding and interesting, I find myself wanting more. Thus, the cling to the material, the tangible. You mention, the "karmic nature of pacts". Yes, I understand this, but what if one did not mind serving the spirit in its' realm eventually should a pact be made? If you choose to believe in a heaven or hell, those who would go to heaven would spend eternity worshipping and glorifying god, singing like the angels and such, right? Lots of people see heaven as a place where they can have all they want, but scripture says otherwise, like the angels, it'll be about worship. Any rational individual will see that as clearly "serving" the creature, god, whatever you wish to call him, of that particular religion's heaven. What's the difference?

@Vagrant Dreamer:
"These aren't just empty acts" "All of this interaction is symbolic"

True, brilliant, and well said. As for "manifesting poltergeist phenomenon", I have noticed knocking noises, objects moved from places I had originally placed them, other people in the same dwelling have noticed the same sweet smells coming and going as well as objects falling more often than they should for no reason, items knocked off of shelves but not in an overtly malicious or obvious way, and crackling noises or popping sounds. "giving you sores" Strange nose bleeds, some extreme pressure in the ears which lasts for several days or weeks then mysteriously vanishes. Accidents, as I mentioned earlier, coming out of nowhere but nothing serious. I wanted to address this part as I have experienced some strange things but I do see and agree with the point you were making in that paragraph. Thank you.

Leechmob, your way of working is very similair to the LHP way of doing things. I have no problem with how you work with the spirit in question generally speaking, it really is just a matter of perspective and your beliefs/attitudes . I'd be interested to know if before working this way you attempted other ways of working, such as the traditional way the grimoires suggest, or more contempory angle. Also did you choose the spirit to contact or the spirit choose you initially. Also I'd be interested to know why you chose a spirit from the goetia, and not another spirit from another grimoire. Just curious.

Loki

All knowledge is matterial.

@ leechmob
Well most of my thoughts have been expressed by bym and vagrant dreamer. The only other comments I can really think of are - how do you know that the demon is who it says it is and not some imposture possing to take advantage of you? Also did you pick a specific demon from a specific source or did you just call something forth at random? I think you picked a specific demon, but in your first post I didn't recall you mentioning exactly.

Finally you mention having success with this demon, advice and so forth; but what kind of matterial gains have you actually gotten and do these, if any, justify working with this demon?

Imperial Arts, especially, but anyone else as well, do you have anything else to add prior to my pending evocation? Any comments on what I have said so far, regarding my experiences, the dream and the 'mark', etc.? I have a few questions for you, should you wish to entertain me kindly with your advice:

1. In my first post, I mentioned some disturbances in the environment, are these experiences or some of them to a certain degree experiences you have enjoyed as well as an indication of a presence? In particular, are vague signs of movement and heat vapor a sign of manifestation or simply an indication of a force being present? Are there any notable signs you have experienced which solidify the reality of a particular entity being present? Are many signs unique to each spirit or is there a common phenomena to them all?

2. Have you ever had another entity other than the one you called show up? If so, how did you deal with said entity?

3. What method do you use to confirm the entity is the one you called?

4. You have mentioned on your live journal, at least a few times, of spirits commenting on how wise you were in affording yourself some degree of protection. In each evocation, does the spirit come forth quickly, or do you feel there is some time where it lingers about in whatever manner of perceptible phenomena and observes your state before manifesting?

5. Based on what I have written so far, do you feel it wise I continue with an evocation, an evocation whereby I use no traditional approach, but call forth the demon using his sigil, name, and office through a personalized ritual? Or, should I continue with the current Approach with this demon and allow him to manifest if he so desires outside my volition?

6. If no license to depart is given, what is the best way to end the evocation, since my Approach would be one of worship rather than of constraint? In short, the room I so honor this demon in could be considered a small chapel, I don't mind at all should his presence remain, as I feel to some degree it always does as I don't banish.

7. When calling on the entity do you use their name as given with English pronunciation, Latin, or Hebrew? In which language do you write their name?

8. Evocation aside, when I notice sweet smells or obvious visual phenomena as mentioned above, is this the spirit trying to get my attention and something I should never ignore but always respond to? Or is it merely the spirit in the vicinity for whatever reason?

9. Any other tips, advice, or musings?

@Loki:

"I'd be interested to know if before working this way you attempted other ways of working, such as the traditional way the grimoires suggest, or more contempory angle."

No, I had not attempted other ways of working, traditional or otherwise. I poured over texts for years before deciding to go with my rather loose but direct approach, feeling it best for me, and so far I have been delighted with the results. I don't believe anyone has the time in this lifetime to get to the bottom of the reality of what each supposed action, gesture, word, phrase, cake-walk ritual pattern, and so forth may truly mean, only a perception thereof, or a foundation of experience which may be contrary in reality. I could choke on a pretzel tomorrow, or be hit by a bus, I'd rather go one-on-one with a spirit should I seek his attention for whatever reason. If millions of people can approach the jealous and vicious blood lusting god of the Bible without protections, so too will I continue to approach one of the once and still beautiful fallen angels, should this in reality be what they are, or not, without any real or imagined protections or approval from a god they clearly oppose, and with good reason.

If a traditional approach works for others, which I don't doubt as rituals are something deeply rooted in the history of man, often beautiful and powerful and missing in the Western world today, unless you count the more secularized events, football games, devotions plopped within communist China funding shopping carts at Our Lady of WalMart, or minor life experiences of a trivial nature, great, I respect the approach and understand the reasons for and often the need. I considered the traditional approach and haven't ruled out future experiments, but at the moment I feel a simpler and more direct approach based on my beliefs is appropriate. To some, and perhaps rightly so, I am skirting the rational, the tried and true traditional approach, and opting to settle for a nibble at the peanut butter slathered on a spiritual mousetrap. Know I appreciate and consider all advice from all posters serious and considerate enough to reply. Thank you.

Before I narrowed down my devotion to this one demon and I was contacting another, I experienced a presence in the room near two glasses of water I had left out for both demons, one had gone empty and I had forgotten to fill it promptly. There was this feeling of what I can only crudely describe as chaos and absolute wrong. A feeling like at any moment something bad could happen, mixed with the feeling you have when someone is standing before you, a presence, but I could not see anything standing or otherwise visible before me. That was the only time I can say I banished whatever it was, out of fear, or stupidity, being new to dealings with spirits of the Goetia. It was also around the time when I experienced the disturbing dream I mentioned earlier which led me to believe I should focus only on the one demon I had been establishing a relationship with. With this exception noted in the beginning, I never banish.

Since then, I haven't felt such a direct, localized to one region in the room, disturbing presence, but the room has taken on a powerful feeling, like something massive beyond my comprehension is there, or filling it to the brim, much like walking into a room with thousands of eyes watching you at once. I often hesitate when I first come close to opening the door to enter the room, or when I do and begin walking through the room to turn on a light, I know something is there, the feeling is heavy and with me always. It's not a bad feeling, but it is a strong one, almost like a pressure or weight. It is a similar feeling as the one I have often felt when visiting places of devout worship, churches and temples. I did awake once to hear a plastic shopping bag I had placed high on a shelf move and make a loud noise with no window open, no drafts or fan running. I take it to have been something leaving the room in that direction when I was waking up. Why it would want to leave so abruptly upon my waking, I don't know. This leads me to a possible idea, if all or certain spirits generate some type of force through the air as they move, and may not be detectable if they move through walls, would not lining the walls with some type of noisy material be beneficial as to pick up their entering and exiting by sound? An ugly and obviously undesirable choice could be tin foil, as it would make a loud noise should something like this pass through it, I'm sure more attractive choices are available.

How many religions banish their gods, saints, and or angels after worship or prayer? "But demons are different!" many cry. Perhaps, or perhaps it's popular perception, no doubt originating in how the god treated the angels, his beautiful creations, if this is true, which eventually fell. Who liberated man from "the garden"? If gaining knowledge is so evil to this god, as it must be, as when man strove for unification (Tower of Babel) and knowledge (Eden's fruit) he was punished. When man, as many believe, cavorted with fallen angels and of them an offspring came to be, god decided to piss in the fish bowl and flood everyone save a man and his boat. Perhaps the god fearing magician should not call upon him when seeking the wisdom of the demons? According to the Bible such sorcery and council is forbidden to begin with. If he is not god fearing, he is using the god of the Bible, under whatever guise he leads himself to believe (inner light, etc. but he still reads from the Bible and calls upon this other god, in some texts), to enter into communication with demons. Would this not incur the wrath of said deity?

But perhaps it is really through blasphemy of a certain kind by these acts that lead the demons so ever quickly and visibly to the magician? Regardless of your method, number of magical names and symbols used, just because it works and appears to be safe, when you examine this god of the Bible and his view on these cast out angels, man's approaches towards bettering himself through knowledge, especially knowledge from "beyond", do you really think you're operating under his, or his holy angel's power or protection? I seriously doubt it. The liberal use and calling of various angels from the Bible for whatever fancy ritual the magician so decides amuses me to no end. The question is, can you carve out these "divine" entities from the religion and use them apart from their origins? We can water down their origins to delude whatever fancy, but if you're using the angels and the god of the Bible as a tool, clearly this is of the LHP and I doubt it works under the power of the angels/god themselves. Instead, I suggest the entities which do appear are demons, appearing as they may, as angels of light as the Bible itself clearly states. Either way, I believe the demons are dealt with directly, and I'd rather be on direct and good terms with them. I am offering this as food for thought, feel free to dismiss it as wacky deluded nonsense from a nutter obviously deluded by the demon he worships. Or, throw back a verbal basket of fish so I may feast upon the knowledge.

Some believe spirits are all on some internal level only, being portions of the brain. The external phenomena I and others have witnessed would lead me to believe otherwise, unless this is yet another part of the mind. Of course, on an occult level, especially with chaos magick, people can and do freely call upon just about any deity, or facet of, from any religion. I'm not knocking that or any approach to the demons, after all, what do I or any of us really know, what can we prove together as a species about these unseen wonders? At best, most view occultists as crazy anyway, yet many serious followers of the big three religions devoted to the same invisible god are busy fighting each other over their holy lands and beliefs over the same creature and how he should be worshipped, now that's insane, and how many years has it been going on? Before anyone says, "you're way off, I don't use these divine names with any belief or relation to their supposed origin" that's cool, I was just going with where a lot of people believe these demons to have originated.

I have begun to increase my reverence for the demon:

- Upon waking, entering the room, and leaving the room, standing before the altar and bowing to the sigil of the demon and stating his name and adding a mention of his greatness, sometimes thanking him for past favors (Should I use the word genuflect here? It sounds appropriate)
- Devoting short periods of time to drawing the demon's sigil and name over and over while focusing on the demon (all work and no play make Jack a dull boy?)
- Devoting short periods of time to holding the image of the demon's sigil in my mind with my eyes closed, doing the same with the image of how the demon appears in texts

As Imperial Arts asked in regards to having this demon as a god, it would seem that worship in such a manner has already begun? These acts can be considered worship in some degree. Is it possible a pact has already been made in my sleep, or *must* this be done when one is awake? Tales, of those there are many, some meant to be real in a historical context, others fantasy, talk of a 'mark' being placed by the entity on the individual *after* a pact has been made. Could the 'mark' I mentioned in my previous post have been after an unconscious pact was agreed to in my dreams? Or perhaps an agreement was implied by my acts of obvious worship? What would this mark be, just a placement by the entity with a substance unseen by man but real to the entity? Would it have any power over us or for us? If this 'mark' was nothing of the sort, would it have any other meaning?

"Also did you choose the spirit to contact or the spirit choose you initially."

I would like to say I chose the spirit, but I'm not so sure that's the way it really happened. I would like to say that I responded to a call.

"Also I'd be interested to know why you chose a spirit from the goetia, and not another spirit from another grimoire."

It was a certain strong, almost personal, feeling of energy I came across with this particular spirit when I looked upon the image given for it, and its sigil. My attention kept returning to him and I decided to act. I know the reason many contact a spirit from whatever tome, usually for some specific benefit the spirit would provide to the person. This did not factor in at all in contacting this spirit. There was something deeper, more of a connection to the spirit, or perhaps I merely could pick up on its power for whatever reason? Whatever the reason, this spirit is not one I commonly read people on magick forums talking about. Perhaps it has less people dealing with it compared to the more popular ones mentioned online? Out of curiosity, how many individuals would you say on average day are evoking spirits from the Goetia? Out of these, how many afford them daily devotions usually ascribed to divinity?

Why the Goetia? It "felt" different when going through the sigils. I received a more scattered, yet strong, feeling from the sigils in the other books, but the energy I felt when going through the Goetia was more pleasant to me, if that makes any sense.

@Acid:

"how do you know that the demon is who it says it is and not some imposture possing to take advantage of you?"

Aside from being directed from dreams to daily life events, accidents in daily life leading to discoveries of, and random bumps into events and materials all pointing to said demon, I now believe I know the meaning behind two different dreams I had earlier in life, before I had any knowledge of the Goetia and this particular demon, each dream pointing to a different particular of said demon. It would seem, by my guess, I was intended to contact this one demon. If this is true, why? Did I serve under it in another life, if reincarnation is your thing, or am I meant to in this one?

Were it to be another spirit, which I doubt, (but it's wise of you to ask this question and I thank you for it) how would it gain anything since I have devoted my energy and devotion towards the demon's sigil and not some impostor? I could understand if such a spirit did manifest during an evocation, and told me to use some other sigil, instead of the spirit I intended, as some have often said spirits do when evoked, but what possible benefit would a deceiver gain when I would not be returning anything to it? When I evoke the demon to manifest, other than asking for it to sign for me, how could it prove itself without a doubt to you as the one evoked?

And what of the visual forms these spirits take? I have heard all manner of descriptions, from texts, from people who claim they have evoked them, forms within mirrors, within smoke, in plain sight, and so on. As they are featured in texts, is this their true form or the form taken to frighten a religious, Bible thumping conjurer? I have taken to posting the photo of the demon on my wall, above the altar, along with the sigil and bowing and speaking to it, as some Eastern religions believe, the photo/sigil being a window to the entity. So, should it manifest in an evocation in the form presented in texts, cool. I would, upon positive verification, if that's at all possible, submit myself to its office and power.

"Also did you pick a specific demon from a specific source or did you just call something forth at random?"

I chose a specific demon from the Goetia. I poured over many texts for years before deciding upon calling anything. It was only the feeling I received from the particular demon's sigil which led me to contact the demon. So, I feel that it pushed, and I pulled. As I mentioned above, I didn't choose it based on wanting something it had to offer in its power, I chose it based on how the sigil felt to me vs. all of the others in the many grimoires I came across.

"Finally you mention having success with this demon, advice and so forth; but what kind of matterial gains have you actually gotten and do these, if any, justify working with this demon?"

Well, as you said, "All knowledge is matterial."

The knowledge revealed to me in dreams has gone far beyond advice, something I touched on in my last post. As for gains which you hold in your hand, like fame and fortune, and all things that float on that boat, I haven't asked for anything along those lines. I haven't asked for much of anything, really, that was not my approach, I did not contact this entity with specific requests in mind. I contacted it for the feel I got from its sigil, and I have continued contact with it because of how kind its been to me through dreams, especially the ones which manifest in reality the same day upon waking, or days later, and other odd but pleasant experiences which point to it when awake.

Curious, if humans have "freewill", if nothing is predestined, how can one dream of events before they unfold, entertain the memory of those events in the mind as they unfold in reality or after the fact?

As for justification for working with this demon, I don't believe I'm completely qualified to answer that. At least, not enough to be impartial. My experience with demons to date has been two: one lasting for several years and continues today, the other but one request which was honored quickly. The results with this demon could also be unique in regards to my approach, or not. I could be appreciating the wonders this demon is offering me while neglecting some of the other clear benefits he (and other demons) may offer me as clearly stated in the Goetia, as I have yet to inquire of these. I feel I have only begun to scratch the surface of this wonderful spirit, there is a power and depth to him which is remarkable.

I know my experiences to date seems well enough to me to justify my continued devotion, however naive that may sound being as I have not pounced on communicating with several of the goetics to know the difference. I do feel, and again it may just be me, this particular spirit wants me to continue relations with it, and may not want me to approach other spirits. Whether or not he is approached in this manner, he may be possessive. Consider, if someone devoted themselves to you with respect and kindness, would you not be the slightest bit protective of this relationship? Perhaps my past experience with monotheism has led me to wrap myself up with one spirit rather than communicating with several.

Thank you for all the responses to date, should anyone else including the past posters in this thread wish to add anything, please do.

Imperial Arts, especially, but anyone else as well, do you have anything else to add prior to my pending evocation? Any comments on what I have said so far, regarding my experiences, the dream and the 'mark', etc.? I have a few questions for you, should you wish to entertain me kindly with your advice:

I must have missed this topic, over a month ago. You have my apology for the unintended delay.

1.

Some of the spirits simply appear before the conjuration is finished. I continue with the Constraint regardless so as to complete the binding. Otherwise the sign of presence has been things like thick darkness, mirror-ball lights, flashes of fire, noises, and other indisputable signs of something unusual happening. Though it is rare that I call a spirit twice, the signs do appear to be consistent for each spirit, and those who appear "prematurely" do so in ways consistent with the descriptions given for the unbound forms.

2. Have you ever had another entity other than the one you called show up? If so, how did you deal with said entity?

This has never been my experience. I do suppose it is possible, but doubt it is common.


3. What method do you use to confirm the entity is the one you called?

I give them the benefit of the doubt.


4. You have mentioned on your live journal, at least a few times, of spirits commenting on how wise you were in affording yourself some degree of protection. In each evocation, does the spirit come forth quickly, or do you feel there is some time where it lingers about in whatever manner of perceptible phenomena and observes your state before manifesting?

One ate a bug that happened to be crawling across my floor, and one gave the illusion of setting the hem of the robe on fire. Things like that make me question the validity of my longstanding belief that there is no physical danger in evocation, that the circle is merely to secure the agreement rather than my life. It may be both! On the other hand I have conjured spirits with a person outside the circle and another within, and it was the one within it who suffered profuse vomiting while the other guy was totally unaffected.

I wonder what degree of awareness these things have for where they are and who I am. Some seem to have it all wrong. one would think they might notice that they are being called to a garage or to my spare room, or that I am a rash young man and not a wise prince. Others do seem to have more awareness of what is going on and some even claim to know me well.


5. Based on what I have written so far, do you feel it wise I continue with an evocation, an evocation whereby I use no traditional approach, but call forth the demon using his sigil, name, and office through a personalized ritual? Or, should I continue with the current Approach with this demon and allow him to manifest if he so desires outside my volition?

Far be it from me to say what you "should" do. If anything I would suggest that you evaluate the balance between what is required of you and what you receive in return, and think about how that relates to your expectations. Personally I take an experimental attitude to all of this and have avoided strong commitments toward any of the spirits.


6. If no license to depart is given, what is the best way to end the evocation, since my Approach would be one of worship rather than of constraint? In short, the room I so honor this demon in could be considered a small chapel, I don't mind at all should his presence remain, as I feel to some degree it always does as I don't banish.

Again this is something out of my area of experience as I do not invite the spirits to dwell with me as companions or deities. You might do well to ask people who keep shrines how they go about getting back to normal business once commerce with spirits & ancestors is finished.

Other than the License to Depart, I perform no banishing rituals. Though it hasn't really been an issue, if a spirit were unwilling to leave, I would probably proceed to the Chains as telling it to go away is part of the demands to the spirit which it cannot disobey without liability. In practice I take a lighter attitude though, and have once repeated the License to Depart which was sufficient.

7. When calling on the entity do you use their name as given with English pronunciation, Latin, or Hebrew? In which language do you write their name?

I say the conjurations and the names as given in the English text. Where there are multiple names given, I pick one and go with that, making an effort to get the spirit to self-identify with its name, origins, and other personal data before giving the license to depart. Only Beleth was hostile to this idea.

8. Evocation aside, when I notice sweet smells or obvious visual phenomena as mentioned above, is this the spirit trying to get my attention and something I should never ignore but always respond to? Or is it merely the spirit in the vicinity for whatever reason?

I assume you mean outside of the ceremony, so feel free to correct me on that. I have made some pre-arranged signals and look for these for specific and agreed-upon tasks, but otherwise I neither find nor look for these things.

I keep the sigils of the spirits in a wooden box. Once in the year 2000, not knowing the box contents, my wife opened it and one of the seals fell out onto the floor. She picked it up and replaced it, not being shy about spirit-sigils or unfamiliar with my interests. I am fairly certain that at the time she did not know the spirit or its office, but that night she went to bed while I stayed awake. While it may be dismissed as hypnagogic delirium, she felt the bed sink as if someone laying in it, followed by someone feeling her up and proclaiming all sorts of things to her about being lord over a particular amount of legions and offering her particular services if she would consent to its wishes. All of the information was consistent with the spirit's profile. She had thought it was just me acting weird, and didn't even turn over or give it much of a response. She was surprised when I came to bed later: I am certain it was not me, and it could have been no one else.

This post has been edited by Imperial Arts: Feb 11 2008, 06:25 PM

(Yes I know this is an old post)

Given that the thread starter only posted like 3 posts gives me the impression that he wasnt very serious into magick (or something really nasty happen to him with dealing with demons). Thats just my impressions.

Why the need to worship a demon? Why not self develope one's own abilities first?

"Treating the demon with respect and honor"
Keep in mind. Just because you do so doesnt mean it will do the same for you.


For those who are beginning evocational work they should deal with less maleific entities first. Start with angels first is my suggestion.
Of course be proficient in banishing and it may be wise to know (or have a friend who can) how to do an exoricism.
Getting possessed be a demon is a real possibility (in most cases its not as severe as int he movie The Exorcist. In most cicumstnaces its alot more subtle. Starting with changes in the possessd victom's personality.).

This post has been edited by Jenfucius: May 26 2009, 06:32 PM

So much for that. I had such a wonderful post ready to reply, then I saw the last post, and noted the times (over a year ago)!

Such a shame. I should have posted when I had the chance. I had so many questions. Oh well.

Back to the drawing board. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/oops.gif)

Uhhhhhmmmm ,the concept of calling a demon and another answers is alarming a bit to me...i mean after all why havent you undertook some strict mesures for this intruding spirits?
I will not tell you who you should worship after all,i diapprove this,but why do you chose a lesser spirit to be Your GOD..?is that wise..?
a priest in the temple of astarte,they worship astaroth..its their business,not mine.
regarding not using a circle,wards,spells,protection that is as bym stated active suicide..
also,demons have their own agenda..and they will not adhere to you unless you compell them to..

Good luck and be careful..

Well, what can a demon do to you if you don't have a circle?

That is a valid question. The answer is very subjective...being one that draws on experience or watered down tales of the witnesses and whoever got told the stories.

I will speak from first hand experience.

I did draw a circle during quite a few evocations, using the methods garnered from a variety of texts.
Of those that produced results were:
very loud noises
horrible stenches
electro-magnetic phenomena (including power fluctuations, fires, EM burnout of telephones, TV, stereo equipment, etc.)
random voices
visual disturbances (blindings, darkness pools, hallucinations)
visual and auditory interaction between me and the spirit

When I did NOT use a circle and was relying on shamanic techniques or invocational ritual I've experienced:
intense psychokinetic phenomena (objects being hurled, spontaneous explosions of crystal and glass objects, fires)
hauntings which included intense fear, panic, strange shadows, slime precipitates, stenches, thunder and lightning,
voices, oppressive presences, nightmares, peculiar emotional bouts followed with amnesia, scratches and scrapes and stigmata like wounds, intense lassitude, unconciousness, missing chunks of time, etc.

Most of these things can be explained in any number of ways...though, at the time, they appeared to be directly adjunct to my working with spirit/angel/demon entities. I've learned that to be forewarned and protected is alot better than unprotected and blytheness of 'spirit'. I once had the unagreeable happenstance to piss off some vampire-like entity which chased me and my partner until we managed to lose it by crossing a river! It was horrifying! I'd rather not repeat that ever again! My partner never fully recovered from this and slowly lapsed into severe depression then dying...at the ripe age of 50 from a wasting illness. The doctor had no clue about what it was. I do. My partner continued to have communications with some rather funky entities for years without the safety of protection. I tried to help but was unable to.
Years passed.....
Recently I had a visitation from some rather potent astral parasites. I saw food rot within seconds as I watched and came close to death a number of times until a couple of members here came to my aid and helped me banish the nasties. These things do exist and they can have some startling effects on you and your world! Now it is easy to fall into various mindsets that have alot of influence over our success with utilizing magic. It doesn't pay to be so cautious that you can't move for fear of discovery but at the same time I caution you to use good, common sense and use protections whenever possible! Those who don't will eventually find out why not. I hope that it never happens to you. Like I've said before...you may find that working with radiation has its rewards but it kill you unless you use protection! Now imagine that those gamma rays or beta particles are sentient and even friendly...do you still go unprotected? Try talking to a whale at 50 fathoms without a wet suit and air tanks...glub, glub.

Well, I've rambled on too long. Good journey! Don't make my mistakes. Learn and grow! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/egypt1.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/horse.gif)

That almost completely echoes a post I made in another thread, about handling demonic power. I compared it to nuclear energy, and how it is truly powerful and capable of accomplishing wonderful things... but without the knowledge of precautions to handle it, it causes changes in undesirable, and often deadly, ways.