i was thinking about that a male magician could use the physical phallus, in certain kind of suitable rituals, and use it instead of a wand, replace as a much stronger symbol
of chokmah the will. Would this symbolism produce a stronger effect with the huge symbolism it is associated with?
might sound a bit odd.

This post has been edited by gift22: Dec 31 2007, 06:37 AM

This is not a strange question by any means. Here is my RECOMMENDATION ONLY based on the writings of Dr. Lisiewski and my EXPERIENCE: Do no such thing under ANY circumstances in Ceremonial Magic (since this is where you posted this, I assume this is what you are working from)! The body must be completely cloaked in this work. The ONLY things showing must be head and the hands which are the visible agents of God on earth through which God works in and through Man. The alb MUST cover those parts of the body which represents 'evil,' the animal drives, carnal pleasures, 'the process of defacation, dirtiness or uncleanliness' (if you are approaching the God of the Grimoires with the innocence thus required to attain what you wish and destroy the enemy). If you do not, this will bring dirtiness, or uncleanliness into your work (again, IF you are working from the Grimoires, or Grammars of Magic). In Old System Magic there is a reason for the seeming 'irrationalities' and 'unreasonable' requests. If you use a real 'phallus' as you say you will seriously introduce unholiness to your work--mark my words now--you will attain more problems than you will be able to handle and they will merit you nothing. Don't try this, please--follow the rules. If the book from which you are working asks for a hazel wand, then go out and find the wood for it as instructed--do not substitute or profane Magic as the new age are SO willing to do!

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

This post has been edited by Mr. Curi: Jan 1 2008, 09:57 PM

thank you for the advice. does it ever get used in any types of magick (except sex magick)?
i didnt know that meaning behind the robe, makes sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not that I know of--but these types of 'magick' should be avoided at all costs. Using the phallus WILL profane ANY type of Ceremonial work.

I am glad my response about the alb made sense and was helpful! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

This post has been edited by Mr. Curi: Jan 2 2008, 09:16 AM

Thelema falls under the heading of 'Ceremonial Magick' and I think Crowley would have disagreed with Mr. Curi's take.

Personally I harbor none of the general disdain and religious belief in the profanity of the body. Even as regards the processes of Ceremonial Magick. I do my rituals wearing nothing, but it should be said that I regard my body, during ritual, in terms of occult anatomy purely. That is to say, I regard it as a tool, a map, a physical representation of an occult geography. During ritual, there is no profanity, no base materialism of desire, or carnality.

Ideally, the establishment of the magickal space brings just this state of mind into place. Of course you must be honest with yourself about your own views about your body, your maturity, and your ability to transcend the common physical state of mind that we spend most of our time in, in most cases. The point of the ritual is to transcend the physical, and so you have to find your own sense of equilibrium regarding the place of the physical in your ritual.

I prefer to be unclothed during ritual because it recalls innocence before the fall of man, going naked before God, and the pure unadorned potential, neither hidden nor decorated, but plain and honest.

I think it would be difficult to use the physical phallus as a wand, for purely practical reasons. You must be aroused, for one thing, which means your magick at that point is really only good for one purpose. Also, good luck drawing pentagrams.

However, harboring a belief that your body is profane, utterly carnal, and representing 'evil' strictly - this will lead you to many psychological problems, which imbalances will negatively affect your magick, regardless of what rules and regulations you follow. Like the mind, the body should be seen as something to be mastered, which is only as carnal or evil as you allow it to be. Your presence in your mind, body, and spirit, is like unto the presence of God in Creation, and remembering that application of the first hermetic axiom will go a long way towards applying your mind, body, and spirit towards whatever ends you choose, in whatever fashion you choose to apply them.

peace

I assure you, there will be no psychological problems as a result of keeping your body clothed because you now UNDERSTAND why it must be done in the context of the specific Grimoire etc. from which one is working. If one is sane, the man will notice a difference and divide between his work in spiritual matters versus his work in mundane matters. This requirement is meant to help one reach that state of altered consciousness that will arise only naturally as a result of the work that is done by the individual. If you are working from any of the Grammars of Magic, you will see how this very action will disgrace what it is you are doing and may even destroy your work entirely (but new agers are okay with this--and all 'power' to them). Remember that you are approaching the God of the Grimoires and NOT your idea of what 'seems' to be right for you--you are working with ancient laws and PRINCIPLES that date all the way back to the time of the Egyptians, Greeks and even earlier (from the Western Magic perspective). The body should be covered not because one considers it 'profane' but because in order for that person to obtain the results he/she so badly desires it must be done whether you or I like it or not--this is NOT the new age. From an occult perspective, one should not use the 'phallus' in such sacred and holy work before one's Maker. 'Gift 22' I am glad this has 'clicked' for you.

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

This post has been edited by Mr. Curi: Jan 2 2008, 01:13 PM

Well it would be hard to perform any sexual magical technique without using the phallus but I suppose it would be possible not to.

Mr. Curi has some good points. I agree that you should not improvise in any ritual magick unless the source you are working from permits it or has alternate suggestions. Subsituting tools or procedures with otherthings is like trying to change the combination on a vault to get it to open. You might get the vault open but, in the realm of magick, what you actually open up may be something totally different.

A better analogy may be working with chemicals. In chemistry you can mix certain elements to produce others. But if you change the substances you are working with or add something new in, you can produce a nasty affect - poisonous gasses, explosion maybe.

Always add acid to water (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I would point out that neo-pagan religions like Wicca often hold court skyclad. The great rite is one of the most sacred practices in Wicca and it doesn't work being clothed. At that rate you might find use of the phallus in the left hand path or chaos magick.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Jan 2 2008, 04:40 PM

Thank you for your post, Acid09. You are correct on ALL counts here.

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

i didnt know this was such a dee topic. Thank you all.. you beleifs have gave my ideas to place my own morality on. Im quite half and half. I can relate to Vagrantd dreamers philosophy to quite a bit in the beliefs of the feelings to why one would practise magick naked. Thank you for the help... i guess working naked for me is ok, but replacing the phallus with the wand will always be probaly causing subtle sexual impulses, which would ultimatley get in the way of invoking higher forces.
thank you all

i am not much practiced in these ways...but if the point is to transcend the physical, why emphasize a purely masculine feature? True that it is a source of life, and a symbol of fertility...but it might only be appropriate in situations where male and female forces (in the physical realm) are being emphasized. Am i wrong? I understand that the ego often identifies with gender, but unless you are addressing a masculine deity...it may not be appropriate to use a phallus. :

mmmm yummy phalluses (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dribble.gif)

I Use phalluse symbols (such as a dick candle) for sex spells and male domination spells. So fun. . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sculacciata.gif)

hi Aphrodite! do you think you could post some of those spells in the sex magick forum? i would like to read about your ventures in that area, as long as it doesn't prescribe love. i've heard love spells can have some hefty consequences, and not in the good way! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

now to the point I AINT no magic professor but honestly the only magic i have succeded in i have actualle used my ""wand"" lol but hey thats just me.
but as proven the energy nreleased under sexual orgasm is VERY VERY powerful. but in ritual magick when you place your self to use/abuse gods power that would be a VERY BAD idea. since the f%*! jut yahova or whatever is such a tight ass

Yes, I too would like to read those spells; I'm always looking for an interesting one.

This post has been edited by fatherjhon: Jan 12 2008, 12:04 AM

I will take this time to be the comic relief for this rather serious question. One, because all seriosity must be met with a certain light fluidity of humor, and two, because this topic is frequently the subject matter of rather coarse humor, anyway. Thus, without further ado...

(IMG:http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/d8/Penispenispenis.jpg)