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 Capital Punishment, for or against....
Capital Punishment
Do you think capital punishment is justifiable?
Yea! Let'em burn! [ 8 ] ** [53.33%]
Nah! Let'em rot! [ 7 ] ** [46.67%]
Another lame topic? Dude get a life.... [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Which of the following death sentances do you think are humane?
Firing squad (any method of being shot to death) [ 7 ] ** [10.77%]
Stoning to death (rocks to the dome, not getting "stoned" to death) [ 4 ] ** [6.15%]
Hanging [ 4 ] ** [6.15%]
Electrocution [ 4 ] ** [6.15%]
Buring at the stake [ 2 ] ** [3.08%]
Drowning [ 3 ] ** [4.62%]
Forced Suicide (any method) [ 5 ] ** [7.69%]
Crusafixtion [ 2 ] ** [3.08%]
Torture (whatever your mind can come up with [ 3 ] ** [4.62%]
Leathal injection [ 8 ] ** [12.31%]
Beheading [ 5 ] ** [7.69%]
Blood letting (ie cutting the throat) [ 4 ] ** [6.15%]
Impailment [ 4 ] ** [6.15%]
Other [ 5 ] ** [7.69%]
None of the above; anti-death sentance [ 5 ] ** [7.69%]
Do you believe that there are certain crimes that should only be punished by death?
Yea! Let those pedos hang! [ 8 ] ** [53.33%]
Nay! Let those pedos become bubba's girl in prison! [ 7 ] ** [46.67%]
Are there crimes you think should only be punished by other means than death?
Yea! The more pain the better! [ 9 ] ** [60.00%]
Nay! The humane action is a quick, maybe painful, death. [ 6 ] ** [40.00%]
Total Votes: 110
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Acid09
post Jan 15 2008, 06:51 PM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/butcher.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/8.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shoot2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cc_hang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chop.gif)

I never realized we had so many smilies that depict forms of punishment!

Ok so another boring already long and drawn out topic with little chance of being resolved on this site.... well its fight club people, pointless debate is what it's about.

Relatively simple topic, albeit a bit brutal. I am interested to know what you all think. As always I'll hold back my thoughts for awhile and see if there are any takers... Odds are I'll forget what I was thinking anyway.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Jan 15 2008, 06:53 PM


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Vagrant Dreamer
post Jan 15 2008, 09:51 PM
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Being the bleeding heart that I am, I don't believe in the death sentence at all. While I think that there are some people who for their crimes can never safely be admitted back into the populace, even the worst criminal may come to have some kind of spiritual awakening during his imprisonment that, while not absolving him of his deeds, gives him the chance to have a clearer understanding of the consequences, both materially and spiritually.

That said, the forms of execution today - is the electric chair still used? - or at least, everything since the disbandment of beheading and hanging, seem to have been developed more as a way to distance the executioner from the task. Kind of like pretending that it's humane, when really it's not. The most human way to go is beheading. It never fails, it's fast, and in my opinion if you're going to be an executioner you should face what you are doing directly, understand it viscerally. Injection sometimes fails, paralyzing the heart and lungs so that the victim suffocates in a long and agonizing death. The Gas chamber can cause terrible brain damage, without killing the victim right away. Even when it does work it can take hours to die. The electric chair is just brutal. The reason no one cuts off heads anymore is just because of the mess. They don't want to do it humanely, 'humane' is a codeword for 'clean'.

Now, I do think that there is something that should be done about our prison system, I think a lot of people go to prison who really shouldn't be there, and who are not reformed by it. I think that accidental killings warrant lesser sentences. Pedophiles I think are not really suitable to be released, or other sex-crime offenders of a 'serial' nature - statutory rape is such a gray are in itself that half the time its a ridiculous endeavor of angry parents to 'protect' their supposedly 'innocent' children from boyfriends/girlfriends they don't like, something I've personally observed twice. But serial sex-crime offenders will in most cases continue to commit crimes when they are released, but more carefully. Some murderers i think could be reformed, but I think for that to be more effective, there needs to be better conditions, security, and counseling available in prisons. Right now honestly the conditions there can turn accidental and half-hearted criminals into very hardened and brutal people. These days, many prisons ultimately create worse criminals to release into the world. With better connections.

peace


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Acid09
post Jan 16 2008, 07:08 PM
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The gas chamber! I knew I was missing something....

QUOTE
It never fails, it's fast, and in my opinion if you're going to be an executioner you should face what you are doing directly, understand it viscerally

That I agree with. And while I would be willing to be an executioner if need be the one thing that would be on the back of my mind is, what if this guy is really innocent?

Taken from your post it sounds as though you lean more towards the rehabilitation philosophy rather than you just do your time, or are put to death. And rehab I think is a good thing for prisoners. The question is.. how far do we push rehab?

Here's a challenging question to you my friend: Would you support a prison system that used behavior modification to rehabilitate inmates? And what I mean is through any means society deems just and not the typical basic education, career developement, job placement, psycho-therapy and such I think that should be a given - I do mean things like gene therapy, lobotomy (modern science uses lazers rather than what amounts to an ice pick, so its not as gruesome or evasive), electro shock therapy (this treatment is also less evasive these days), drug therapy, bioprograming and so forth.

And example of how behavior modification is already in use is in the treatmet of pedophiles. Some can go through voluntary castration, either physical (they cut the nuts off) or chemical (the pedo recieves injections for life) for reduced sentances. Another is in the case of the mentally disturbed being forced to take medicine and go through regular therapy and mental assessments as a condition of probation.

Assuming such behavior modifications are voluntary, what would you say?


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SeekerVI
post Jan 16 2008, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE(Vagrant Dreamer @ Jan 15 2008, 07:51 PM) *
Being the bleeding heart that I am, I don't believe in the death sentence at all.
Being the sadist that I am, I say life imprisonment! I've done research on NDE & dead talkin' mediums to know, (for the most part) the afterlife is way better than here, so let 'em rot here where it sucks!

As for experimentation, they should just ask if the inmates will want to be paid for it. The only people against freedom of choice are the greedy megalomaniacs, going for personal ego trips rather than the land of plenty that is stupidity. Lots of folks will be dumb enough to get chicken feed in exchange for legal violations of their rights.


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Vagrant Dreamer
post Jan 17 2008, 12:31 AM
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QUOTE(Acid09 @ Jan 16 2008, 08:08 PM) *
Here's a challenging question to you my friend: Would you support a prison system that used behavior modification to rehabilitate inmates? And what I mean is through any means society deems just and not the typical basic education, career developement, job placement, psycho-therapy and such I think that should be a given - I do mean things like gene therapy, lobotomy (modern science uses lazers rather than what amounts to an ice pick, so its not as gruesome or evasive), electro shock therapy (this treatment is also less evasive these days), drug therapy, bioprograming and so forth.


Personally, I go with a sort of clockwork-orange viewpoint on behavioral modification - being modified to be good doesn't make one a law abiding citizen. More importantly, I think that in the long run - with the exception of the lobotomy - those modification therapies are not as effective as they are sometimes said to be. They can cause post-traumatic stress syndrome which can turn some criminals into other kinds of criminals. In a percentage, it would probably work out just fine, and they may even ultimately appreciate it. If a prisoner wants to agree, without any coercion - extended sentences, promises of harsher prison life, etc. - to such a therapy because he truly feels that his criminal behavior is compulsive and uncontrollable, then yes, such therapies could be a viable option for a percentage.

Some criminals, honestly, are just people with seriously warped and savage worldviews. Gang members constitute, according to the 2005 numbers, nearly 40% (less than half, more than a third) of the total prison population in the united states and the prisons it governs in the outlying islands (might as well call them colonies). Not sure what the current numbers are, but in two years they can't have changed that much. However, I don't honestly think that 'education' is the answer to that problem. You can't force a kid to stay in school, and inspiring them is difficult when their heroes and idols - in the community and in popculture - are telling them that this other kind of 'on the edge' life is more 'real'. And I have seen kids of every kind of culture in america, at least, following ideals like this. It's not an unsolvable problem, but I think the solution is something rather extreme.

It'll never take, and I realize it's an idealistic sort of thing, but I believe that the life-changing, neardeath experience, the face to face confrontation with one's own mortality, is the most psychologically and spiritually healing experience a human being can have, next to the experience of divine union - arguably a similar or the same experience depending on the point of view of either and/or both. If hard criminals were to be faced with an experience like this, I think they would be reformed more effectively. And, bleeding heart that I am, I do believe that all such behavior to harm others stems from inner pain, fear, and psychological disease.

More importantly, though, than the reform of individual prisoners, I think that an approach like that would be taken more seriously by the subcultures that produce such criminals - not all, obviously, but the bulk - who when released may produce a positive effect on their communities, assuming they return to them in some fashion. Again, I realize it's an idealistic point of view - I'm an idealist - and of course one that would be considered inhumane by mainstream society overall. Truthfully though, I think it's the most humane thing that can be done. But of course, it's also not as simple as just dropping them off a cliff and then catching them - and I doubt there are professional, criminal reforming shamans running around looking for federal employment.

I think our society is ultimately just ill-equipped to deal with the criminal element. We're judgmental, self-centered, more concerned with the welfare of the mainstream element of our total society, and prefer generally to just ignore the 'edge' elements and when they affect the central part, simply lock it away to keep it from infecting the 'healthy' areas. But, what society has ever dealt with the criminal element in an ultimately humane and positive way?

QUOTE
And example of how behavior modification is already in use is in the treatmet of pedophiles. Some can go through voluntary castration, either physical (they cut the nuts off) or chemical (the pedo recieves injections for life) for reduced sentances. Another is in the case of the mentally disturbed being forced to take medicine and go through regular therapy and mental assessments as a condition of probation.

Assuming such behavior modifications are voluntary, what would you say?


I think the previous part basically sums up my point of view... as to the mentally disturbed, that is a different case. Many theorists in criminal psychology believe that all criminal activity ultimately boils down to such mental disorders - from genetic justifications, to more simple brain imbalances that might be temporary or somehow chemically induced (simple in comparison to genetic disorders). I don't necessarily equate psychological imbalance with anything either genetic or neurological. The non-physical part of the mind, one's experience, beliefs, etc., can play just as much a part of the criminal mind. Ultimately, there's nothing you can do about that sort of thing, no amount of counseling, education, or intervention can really change those kinds of elements of the psyche. It takes a traumatic event of some sort to shake down the structure of the mind of an unwilling individual. And most criminals believe what they are doing is, not okay, but justified by some kind of natural law.

My thought in all of this is for the ultimate welfare of the individual, rather than society as a whole. It is a view that I know will never be shared by the majority of society, and in this regard I simply agree to disagree with the majority. Part of the problem with the system of justice, is that the individual in need of 'reform' or punishment, does not always feel he has been brought to 'justice' - oftentimes he's just angry that he got caught. Ultimately, there is a separation in his mind between morality and the right/wrong status of what he has done. Not universally, of course, but getting caught and incarcerated is part and parcel to the lifestyle. In my own neighborhood, prison is seen as a typical danger of 'street life', and is discussed casually like people living in the forest might discuss grizzly bears. I can't judge the perspective other similar elements of american culture have on prison, but i'm lead to believe it's fairly universal across that subculture.

So the question becomes - is reform really enough as it is? Behavioral modification is experimental at best, it's long term consequences are as yet really not concretely understood - for some they could work fine, for others they could be disastrous, both personally and for the society those people are reintroduced into. Execution is, at least in my opinion, simply morally wrong, and reflects poorly on the culture that supports it. Imprisonment can only last so long. Exploring physical and psychological methods of solving the criminal problem, almost everything seems ineffectual. So the only branch of the being left is the Spiritual side. But, our culture is not spiritual enough, over all - and I do not mean, of course, religious, as religious counseling is a part of the typical prison reform experience - to explore the spiritual experience more empirically; even though such studies have been made, and the spiritual experience has been explored enough to have found that there is an empirical, neurological, basis for such experiences. Our culture is, ultimately, just not compassionate enough to employ such findings to reform prisoners.

And of course, all of this isn't even considering that half the problem is that there are too many people in prison who really don't need to be there. But that is another discussion.

I would say that if individuals were to agree to try experimental behavioral modification therapies, then that is their right. And perhaps in doing something like that, we'll make further advances to make those therapies safer and more of a sure thing in the long term. Whether society will accept someone who has been so modified, that is another question, but I suppose that's part and parcel to the consequences of doing those kinds of wrongs.

peace


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realm_crawler
post Jan 19 2008, 08:15 AM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/butcher.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/black eye.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sadomaso.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chop.gif) for pedofiles and rapists....
why murder has suchs hard punsihment is out of my understanding
i meen the victim isint suffering from it anymore. and usually didnt suffer.


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Sarena
post Jan 28 2008, 11:06 AM
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I really haven't formed a solid opinion on capital punishment as there are so many variables, like the severity of the crime and whether it truly is comitted. I don't think there should be a death sentence for say rape. I understand that the crime is unjust and disgusting but there have been cases in the past where people have been wrongly jailed. Crimes themselves aren't black and white, there's circumstances in which they are committed. Putting the wrong person in jail may not happen that often but if they are found innocent, you may not be able to give back the time they have lost, but you'll certainly be able to give them the rest of their lives (although it will obviously be tained with the whole jail thing). You can't take back death.

But, I still believe 'crimes against humanity' such as genocide should definetely be punishable by death.


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realm_crawler
post Feb 5 2008, 07:03 PM
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well death sentence for genocide then.... but harder punishment for pedophiles and rapists then for muderesrs then i am happy and smiling for ages (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

thou i dont caremuch about humanity my solution for the worlds problems would be 65 nukes in africa 75 in china and then we all leave happily ever after nobody would have to hunger nor would ther be over population...
as for japan think if the us would not have dropped THE bombs ther5e would be a lot and i MEAN ALOT more ppl on that smallisland now..
2=2-4 X a million hmmmm

This post has been edited by jlx: Feb 5 2008, 07:07 PM


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Acid09
post Feb 6 2008, 08:19 PM
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Yeah never mind radioactive fallout and nuclear winter. Minus the fact your skin is falling off life is just dandy!

I guess where I get hung up is this notion that executions are morally wrong. I think life in prison is more inhumane than a relatively quick death. I mean think about it. The sum of your existance is limmiited to 22-23 hours a day in a 7x8x8' prison cell. Check out some of these places:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/Aci...gy/Prison04.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/Aci...150_hmedium.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/Aci...llR_450x348.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/Aci...y/justice-7.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/Aci...gy/jailcell.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/Aci...catraz-cell.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/Aci...gy/cell0705.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/Aci...prison_cell.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/Aci...41935jOqn_w.jpg

And you're lucky you might get the 5 star jail cell:
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/Aci...prison-cell.jpg

So you're spending the vast majority of life in this place. You might get a tv with basic cable. You might be allowed to pin up some pictures or have some personal affects. But this is the end of the line for you. There is no insentive to become a better person. Many lifers find joy in making other inmates and guards miserable. Many also join prison gangs and end up organizing crime that can spill out onto the streets. And I mean what are you going to do lock them up? People keep saying lock up gang leaders and the sad truth is that most are already behind bars for life and they are still able to operate their illegal activities too. Is that humane on society? Would it be more moral for society to put these people in solitary confinement for the rest of their natural life? I guess on one hand an increase in suicide rates might save society from having to get their hands "dirty". So in that case is it then morally justifiable to offer inmates a choice - life in solitary confinement vs suicide?

People go mad in jail. And only a few inmates ever really "recant" or find God or find any meger means of life behind bars. Its essentially a hell on earth. And in one sense it does stand to reason that by forcing inmates to remain in jail until death, we ensure that they do suffer some measure of "hell". All I know is if I ever get a life sentance its going to be short because I don't think I'd want to stick around for very long. I'd just say f%*! it and opt out of this life and hope there really is something better on the other side.


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Imperial Arts
post Feb 11 2008, 01:41 PM
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I am morally opposed to forced imprisonment for any reason.

Against the death penalty? Well I am all in favor of self-defense. If an attacker tries to shoot you, but you draw first and shoot him dead, it sounds fair to me.

What if you had no gun, or were overpowered or caught off-guard? I don't think it's fair to let the guy get to live (at our expense) when you would have been happy to shoot him dead if only you had your own gun. Unable to force the fatal consequence yourself, society takes up the role and does what you would have done. When criminals devise a humane way of murdering innocent people, we can think about humane means of punishing them.

Any element of the legal system is open to misuse.


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realm_crawler
post Feb 18 2008, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE(Imperial Arts @ Feb 11 2008, 09:41 PM) *
I am morally opposed to forced imprisonment for any reason.

Against the death penalty? Well I am all in favor of self-defense. If an attacker tries to shoot you, but you draw first and shoot him dead, it sounds fair to me.

What if you had no gun, or were overpowered or caught off-guard? I don't think it's fair to let the guy get to live (at our expense) when you would have been happy to shoot him dead if only you had your own gun. Unable to force the fatal consequence yourself, society takes up the role and does what you would have done. When criminals devise a humane way of murdering innocent people, we can think about humane means of punishing them.

Any element of the legal system is open to misuse.



this is the LAWS i WOULD love to see in our country no one Has the "right" only maybe the privligde" to own A gun.
a case recently involved a 85 year old mommygranny well she used a fryingpan instead of her late husbands guns she is in jail for 3 years for unnessecary violence which is only is a law employed upon law enforsment in finland but since she had martial arts training and general fire arms training he got tried and condemmet for use of execisvie force (or how ever it is spelled)


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