So, lately I have been changing the way that I pray, according to the program, which I've been rather verbose about lately, namely Lisiewski books and attendant material. This has given me some difficulty, because I am not used to praying as he suggests - particularly speaking, out-loud. My periods of prayer in the past have been more contemplative, considering and turning my attention to the qualities of the Divine, seeking out in my own experience and sensibility, the expressions of the Divine around me, and expressing in a purely emotional manner my feelings for that Divinity.

When I perform various ritual prayers, either written by myself or drawn from the Psalms, Dr. Dee's prayers, Thelemic orations, etc., I don't feel any kind of exaltation during the prayer itself - with very few exceptions. It makes me wonder, am I praying wrong, or am I just used to praying a different way. Moreover, is my previous method of prayer - this somewhat direct internalized approach - somehow less effective, or effective in a different way?

Now, I have developed a strong connection to my experience of God through my own version of prayer. I want to try and develope this other practice because I want to know if there is a difference experientially. For those that have been praying this way for a long time, is it something that developed for you after a while? What does it mean to 'enflame thyself with prayer'? It is experientially different than the feelings and experience I have when praying 'directly' as I am used to? (more a question for myself there). In these spoken prayers, I'm seeing examples that involve asking for wisdom, forgiveness, guidance, etc. In my own version, I'm used to simply focusing on the immense presence, power, and glory of the Divine experience and expression, rather than asking for anything. Thus far, those things seem to deliver themselves as I need them - even to the point that by the time I got frustrated with my current level of magical development, I was introduced to Lisiewski's work, which has helped me progress. Other examples are scattered throughout my life. Not that I think it's wrong to ask the Divine for such things, but this sudden focus on doing that as a regular practice is kind of putting me off on some level.

Any suggestions, thoughts, or experiences to share with prayer in general, regardless of tradition, and how one involves themselves in it? In addition to the questions given above, for consideration and discussion?

peace

Hi VD,

I dont really know if i understood your words well but let me also post something on prayers...



In fact what had been in my mind from observation since long is that lots of normal people do not really know what prayer is. People just go infront of a picture and recite some kool words and that it. There is not the link that those people try create to the divinity via like for instance visualising the God and repeating the name of the god etc till a certain calmness of the mind happens.... In fact i would say that prayers have since long been moulded by religious leaders to:

1st keep the faith on God and have the people follow the religion

2nd remove those parts that could allow a powerful connection to the Divinities and allow the use of magick

3rd help keep unity among the groups.



I see prayers as a transformed and lower communication medium of a ritual in itself.



But i do not say that prayers are not effective. The human mind evolves also. So with emotions, prayers themselves can grow in intensity to create the link to the Divinity. And when a link is acknowledge then the simple prayer itself will effective. There are also places where rituals are performed and these places have a link to the Divinities. So if in these places, a simple prayer is made, it would travel through the network present there to reach the divinity.



One thing more is that before a prayer, there needs to be a mental reshaping period of several minutes to get detached from the mundane life and to better produce the effect a prayer needs to.



rgds

Well in my experience there are three types of prayer. But they all revolve around the rather hideous phrase, praying from the heart or as the occult says enflaming thyself.

The first is the set written prayer as found in the grimoric and catholic tradition. Ones you memorize and repeat so often that you don't even think of the words, they just spill out of your mouth. During these types I find myself staring out at the wonder of nature and my surroundings and finding great beauty and harmony welling up within my chest and body as my mind and mouth goes through its routine.

The second type is the protestant type or the type you use when you are feeling low, the spur of the moment, deeply intent type. These generally arise from great need or crisis, your eyes are closed and you are intent upon your actions and after a few moments you can feel the connection and welling up from within.

The last type usually follows the first two, the completely silent and wordless prayer. Not a meditative or contemplative action but rather just a connection to the divine with no words at all. Sense of peace and connection found in certainty.

All these have the common thread of a sense of wonderment and connection welling up from within, generally localized to the chest region. Not sure how better to explain it than that.

Vagrant Dreamer:

"Enflaming yourself" in prayer always occurs naturally as I am sure you may be aware by now. It's not like the New Agers who whip themselves up a storm and turn blue in the face while trying to recite "The Bornless Ritual" and expect something to "happen"--well I've got news, it will not, or it will all backfire and cause slingshot effects of such proportions you won't know how to handle it. It is a process that takes time, and if you are following my advice with the Dee prayers in regards to the Aspersions (my instructions are on my thread concerning this Ritual in the Ceremonial Magic area of this forum), I guarantee you something WILL happen in your growth. Though Old System Magic is an incremental process, there will ALWAYS be IMMEDIATE results. How can there not? One is adhering to the rules and coming closer and closer to Divinity, which is, as I believe Dr. John Dee once wrote, "is nearer than your hand and closer than your breath." Now stop. Ponder this line. It should literally evoke tears because it is so overwhelming a thought. It is this that we are after and prayer will bring about what I like to call a Divine intimacy in ways that no New Ager and their methods will be able to bring about. The Psalms, in time, should literally throw you into ecstasy...but again...this is all in time. For now, continue with the Aspersions (as all practitioners of the Science and Magic of Art, in my opinion should be doing) and everything will fall into place like you have never seen it before.

Fio Praeter Humanus:

It is good you are making these observations. They are true and it seems like you are making wonderful progress in prayer as ANYONE and I repeat ANYONE in Magic should be doing.

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

This post has been edited by Mr. Curi: Mar 12 2008, 11:20 AM

Thank you for all of your responses, I think I have some idea of where I should be focused at least for now. This is one of the few areas of this new (to me) direction in practice that has just kind of been a stumbling block for me, and my first instinct was to rationalize it away. While I don't care to be specific about such personal things, my experience with divinity through meditation - though I currently have no basis of comparison - has been profound in the past, for me, and has somewhat been rooted in the non-theistic (in the religious sense) ineffable, view of the Divine Source, which I hardly like referring to as God because that's a bit too much like defining it. My meditation practice arises from the traditions of Yoga and Zen buddhism.

So, needless to say I feel awkward vocalizing prayers at all at this particular moment, although it has become more comfortable since I started doing so regularly. The closest I've gone to doing so has been something along the lines of affirmations using yoga nidra. At the point that you're stating them, you can't usually even tell if you're speaking out loud or not.

I suppose then I'll just keep at it and see where it goes. It certainly at least keeps my mind rather more focused on the presence and movement of the Divine in my life and in the world, what with the quarterly adorations, and in opening and closing the day with prayer, along with the aspersions and attendant prayers with them. It adds up to some kind of prayer every few hours or so.

Thanks everyone.

peace

I have been praying for the last 15 years. I sure hope I have progressed at least some in it...

Vagrant Dreamer:

Here is another helpful tip:

When reciting the Dee prayers (again, I remind you that these must be said only AFTER the 4-6 weeks using salt water, THEN you say the prayers immediately after the rite STILL using the salt water at this time). But to get to my point--remember that when you pray them, MEAN WHAT YOU ARE SAYING--but DO NOT force the words like the New Agers do. There will come a time when simply reciting them will do something to your spiritual unfolding nature and you may not be consciously aware of the words anymore. This, will be a GOOD sign and I ask that you report to the thread on the Aspersions when you do so that I can explain. God himself will fill you when the time is right because of your work.

Fio:

Believe it or not I have known people who have been 'praying' for fifteen years or more but have STILL not received any results. The same goes, again for the New Agers who are scratching their heads wondering what went wrong. This is the Magical world and there is no failure if you correctly approach the God of the Grimoires and the Divinity within you in the process that is Old System Magic.

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

This post has been edited by Mr. Curi: Mar 12 2008, 02:13 PM

There is prayer and then there is going through the motions, hence the term "enflame thyself" to differentiate the two. I assure you I know the difference and I do not waste my time on idle efforts.

God enflames you due to the hard work and efforts you have put in to allow for greater growth of consciousness. I also know the difference between "enflaming oneself" and true prayer.

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

Then by all means do share as it pertains to the thread at hand.

I have briefly expanded on the matter above by saying what the difference is. Enflaming oneself, in my experience can come from the lower self and can divide one from focus on the Divine. The results of true prayer as I said above, comes as a direct result of hard work and effort that is blessed by God in order for you to continue.

Huxley says in his Perennial Philosophy that prayer, "is applied to at least four distinct procedures--petition, intercession, adoration, contemplation. Petition is asking something for ourselves. Intercession is the asking of something for other people. Adoration is the use of intellect, feeling, will, and imagination in making acts of devotion directed toward God in its personal aspect or as incarnated form. Contemplation is that condition of alert passivity in which the soul lays itself open to the Divine Ground within and without, the immanent and transcendent Godhead."

I think the Theurgist, Magician, whatever, is more or less concerned with the last two definitions, having found petition and intercession a selfish waste of time.

Interestingly enough I have recently started to pray. Having abandoned the practice years ago. I've been studying the mystics and saints of the western tradition, Sufis and Christians like Shams, Rumi, Ekheart and William Law. I suddenly found myself compelled to simplify my practice. No rituals. No ornate pomp. Just simple zazen, and prayer. Nice coincidence to see this post. I try for complete openess, and flow of consciousness, I usually hit a stride and I can feel it working.

To me, prayer is a direct conversation with God. So it seems wierd to use scripted dialouges to speak to God. I'm having a direct conversation with him. I'm just giong to speak my mind and then he's going to give me love. Love is what's best for me. When one prays, one should always expect what is best for them in that subject matter to be the reply. Sometimes what's best is nothing at all.

I feel as if God cares about all areas of our life. And the thing is, I believe God has shown me this. For at first you're like, "i'm not going to ask God for this, it's God." But he has really shown me that even the most small embarrassing areas of your life he really really cares about.

So I say continue with your old way of just talking to him, but at the same time implement some of the new.

Since prayer is a direct conversation with God, you have to realize that God just wants to hear what you have to say.So say it as you say, as the person you are, and not as someone else.

That's just my suggestion.

When I was a Christian, I used to pray all the time, but I never felt like I was actually talking to the Christian God. I thought I was really talking to fate, or the elements, or karma, et cetera. After I officially converted to Paganism and stopped trying to pretend to follow a path that wasn't right for me, I've found prayer to be much more natural. I can speak to the elements or the deities, asking for protection usually. I usually pray when I'm driving in a storm, alone at night where there might be dangerous people, and when I'm going to sleep (to ask for a good night's rest and safety). It brings me comfort if nothing else, but I've always held a lot of faith in prayer.

Speak with your heart and not thy tongue
Till words drip with fire
And a mist fills the air
To rain upon thee the ides of care
Aware!