I believe the truth about sin, however controversial it might be, should be known.

People from different religious tenets tend to complain about how sinful human beings are.
They say things, like "Adam ate the forbidden fruit and separated us from God".
They say things like, "man and God cannot exist together unless sin is removed, as God is holy".
They also say things like, "It's mans fault, that there is evil in the world"
They say, "God is perfect, and purely good"

I believe that as harsh as it might be, God is the real sinner. God is the reason we could do evil.
God is the reason humans have free will. God is the reason detestable things take place in this
universe. If it wasn't for God's evil, things like "babies falling from buildings, cars wiping out in
bad weather, hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc" wouldn't happen, in any circumstances.
God is the reason behind demonic activity. God is the creator of all things good and evil,
and therefore is responsible for all human evil. We have him to thank for all our life's woes.

If human beings were responsible for evil in this universe, we'd have to be some pretty bad dudes.
Why is it human civilization, is always accepting blame for the faults of God?

It's not our fault that God chooses to create a universe full of moral ambiguity.

Blame the Most High God!

it is not to judge my friend but it is not wise to blame everything on God, it is true that God also creted the dark side, but we must keep the bamlance beetween both sides and blaming things on God or satan solves nothing i belive that it is humanity's responsability to keep the balance in order to become lined with the divine force, that its why saying God its evil its foolish, we humans are God, and not all of us are evil............ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)

I think that problem here is seeing the world in black and white instead of shades of grey. When events are forced to fit into the mold of good and evil black and white, then of course the world looks like a bleak place. Instead i think that it is possible to see beyond the dualities and instead see a more subtle and changing universe.

I agree with the fact, that we should try to live by morality, and not fester in evil.
However, there is no such thing as satan. The evil part of God is what is most commonly called satan.
The truth is, the starter of the heavenly fires, is also the starter of the hellish ones.
God is to blame for absolutely everything. God is the root of all evil.

but is it not true that humans have free will???so withthat it it is proven that even thought satan its tha dark part of God, it is also true that evil happens because humans choose to do evil....... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/diablo.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/evilB.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/innocent.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hypocrite.gif)

Ok, let me try to explain GOD and sin from the prespective of experience and a LOT of study. I don't expect that I can explain this very well. It is kind of a catch 22. You must experience GOD before you can TRULY understand. First I'm am going to use Absolute in place of GOD. GOD has to much baggage. If you can understand this concept intellectually (if I can present it properly) then you are 1/2 way there.

Form the posts and I have just skimmed them I get the impression that we are still locked in the Fairy Tale GOD. We are still hanging on to the notion of an entity that sits on a cloud and takes notes. That is horse S..., think about it, childish and ..... well impossible. But he is omnipotent..... I have met other spirits with great power so why not on with super power. No sorry, there are but they are not GOD. There may even be entities that claim to be GOD. There is no big Boss per se. There is one big entity however.

Sin..... no such thing. There is Karma. I believe it is extremely necessary to understand Karma. This was the goal of Theosophy They believed that if every one understood Karma then it would solve ALL the problems of the planet. I believe they were on the right track but people are people. Some just don't give a crap. The give out 10 free lessons mostly having to do with Karma which is excellent.

Home page:http://www.blavatsky.net/ Home Study Course link:http://www.blavatsky.net/member/course.htm

I recommend taking a look at it it is total free and worth looking at.

So back to GOD or the Absolute:
EVERY religion (catholic, jewish, islam, etc.) tells you the truth how who ever wrote the literature couldn't explain it either at least not to FULL understanding.
Catholic: Where is GOD? Answer GOD is every where. They do mean that there is no where that GOD isn't.
Islam: There is nothing but God (Allha) and Mohammed is his prophet

That is all you need to know. So lets think this out a bit. People hear it but don't think about it. They don't want you to either. When I was in school they had a teachers strike so FL in there infinite wisdom fired them and hired substandard teachers. I went to the Catholic School as they hired all the great teachers. Hey if ya have to put up with it ya might as well learn something. Ok Bill is 16 Day one religion class:
Father Smith We are going to study the Catechism (sp).
Student: We are already confirmed why?
Note: Catechism: series of questions to which they provide the answers. You need to know them to get confirmed, highest sacrament you can get until marriage or priesthood.
FR: WE need to understand the Catechism.
FR: 1st question.... Where is GOD?
Bill: Thinking I hate the Catechism 1st question easy answer. He's using a seating chart, put up you hand Dumb A.. you won't get called on for the hard ones.
Raise your hand... hand shoot up.... no one else.... first day everyone is shy.
Fr: (Looking at his seating chart) Master S.
Bill: GOD is everywhere!
FR: Correct next question.
Bill: Freaking out as he just actually listened and realized what he just said. Hand shoot up
Fr: What? you answered correctly.... next question.
Bill: Yes but I have a question about the question.... If GOD is everywhere do you mean by that that there is NOWHERE where GOD isn't?
FR: Yes exactly. Next Question
Bill: No Fr. I I'm starting to freak out because that would mean that Mr. Victorio here is GOD....
FR: Now starting to freak....noooo next question
Bill: No I'M NOT DONE.... that also means mr Kearnan is GOD..... You are GOD (Priest Freaking out NO I'm just a Priest) I am sitting on GOD writing with GOD on GOD. Please Help me here.
FR: That is incorrect......
Bill: NO Fr. If he is everywhere and we are not GOD then explain.
FR: Got to the office you are disrupting the class.
Bill: Ok, I am not trying to disrupt I need to understand and you are supposed to explain..... (FR TO THE OFFICE see the Dean)
The Dean was an Irish Priest about 26 yrs old and a sadist. Mom had had a run in with him and he was scared to death of my Mother, so I was not afraid)
FR F: Leaning on the counter in the office looking bored.... What are you doing here Master S. Are you ill.
Bill: No Fr. I got kicked out of class.
FR: You? (I was good usually) What ever for? Which Class?
Bill: FR. Smith's Religion class. I asked a question and he could not explain it.
FR F: Well I am a priest will answer the question, what was it.
Bill: I know the answer, the question was Where is GOD?
FR F: And your answer?
Bill: Everywhere
FR F: Correct what is the problem?
Bill: GOD is everywhere which means that there is nowhere that GOD isn't.
FR F: Yes, is the man Daft?
Bill: Well that means that she is GOD (pointing at the secretary typing on GOD with GOD, Sitting on GOD, you are GOD and Leaning on GOD, I am GOD also
(All the time FR F is saying NO NO NO.
Bill: Then Explain, because if that is true why do we need you and the church?
FR F: Standing up straightened this point the Secretary, stopped typing and is starring back and forth at me and the priest. Nice Day out isn't it?
Bill: yes beautiful but...
Fr F: I think a study hall is needed why don't you enjoy the rest of the period in the court yard Studying for the next class I will be watching.
Bill: BUT FATHER I am freaking out here please explain
FR F: Study Hall in the Court Yard I'll be keeping an eye on ya.
Bill: OK (that was Friday)
Monday Religion class
FR S: I hope you all brought you Bibles (looking at me) If not you will be disciplined is required for the class. We are studying the Bible as History
Bill: Father what Happened to the Catechism?
FR S: Glaring at me... THE BIBLE AS HISTORY
Bill: Good, I love history. Made a B for the class.

Sorry, I tell stories I have had a weird life and have lots of them.

30 yrs later:
I was invited to take part in a Shamanic Ceremony (I was not into shamanism at the time) it involved a grass from Australia... don't know what it was.
Another Long story but here is the short of it:
There were 12 of us. I watched as each took turns. One hit, on the floor, there for a few min. Then they got up. Some came up as gods Kali was one. I reconsider instantly(I had never studied the Hindu deities sop I found this weird yet profound) there was this sacredness that came with her that could not be denied There were others that came with other people. So I took my turn I was last or one of the last. I took the hit. There was no fighting it you were going down. I did try (wrong thing to do) and as I feel I fell through the layers of existence At some point I reached out to something BIG mistake. I locked in on what ever it was and learned EVERYTHING about it, the positive and the negative, swinging back and forth from Total orgasmic Bliss to hellish Fear I finally found myself in peace in nothingness. I became aware that I was but there was nothing else. Then I heard a loud resounding I AM. There was this explosion and the universe formed before me and I knew ALL and EVERYTHING I had achieved objective consciousness I understood not only intellectually I actually the universe. I was GOD. This brought back all the stuff from FR S's class and put it together me. We are ALL GOD because there IS NOTHING ELSE but GOD.... Mohammed may or may not be his prophet.

I had been blowing out to GOD in Meditation before all this. The 1st time scared the crap out of me, but I was with a friend who had already had the experience with the ceremony so he felt it and was there. The calmed me down. For years after I could take people there and it was my goal teach as many possible. I did not have much success most of the time it scared the crap out of them, and I could not explain it.

Emerald Tablets Of Thoth the Atlantean: The one in the many and the many in the one.
Another example this fact has been in plane sight and multitudes have told us but you can't get it until you experience. You can only think you get it.

So there is no sin, there is negative and positive for one that is how our limited minds interprets. Everything is subject to karma so there is no sin pre se There is only consciousness THere is no magick, there is no you and yet there is. We have the solid because of an agreement. It is all consciousness nothing else.

Ok well that is my thoughts truncated.

There is better explanations out there most have probably seen What the BLEEP, Down the Rabbit Hole edition, helps. I would suggest watching that a few times. Then watch Atom to Cosmos. You can watch Atom to Cosmos in full on You Tube and others. You can buy both also, amazon has them. Atom to Cosmos it a must for a serious meditator.

None of this negates your work. I would also like to call your attention to Initiation Human and Solar, very interesting. Looking at what many are doing and about here I would think this book by Alice Bailey will jog some past memories.

So an the subject of sin look into Karma..... there is more to it then is usually understood. Understanding Karma will open a lot of incites and understanding it may change your work. The Free course is a great place to start. To have a more realistic view of GOD then What the Bleep and Atom to Cosmos, to understand where you are going with all this Spiritual stuff Alice Bailee will help (not easy reading but that doesn't seem to be a problem with this group).

All this will probably cause you to re-think many things. I think it will give you understanding but you need to keep going until there is realization. They are 2 different aspects. The only thing you may lose is your misconceptions. believe me you want to become more magickal understand these concepts until you realize them. You will really be able to Go with the FLOW. Be a partner with the universe or the Absolute (GOD if you must) your life will improve because you are not fighting anything.

My point of view, I don't think I did a great job of explaining it but I hope you will look into the 4 or 5 books and films I mentioned. The hardest thing is letting go of our concepts for what ever reason. Please if you want to control people and entities.... well this stuff may not be for you. If you want to get on with things as I do because I am old and over most of what I see around me this stuff may help.

Sorry about the spelling got tired of correcting the corrections it made.

Krell

Krell makes good points. I like to think of things in terms of comparisons - as above, so below.

In the world of single cell organisms, bacteria eat one another, they steal one another's food, etc. Whole populations wipe one another out, trillions of organisms, killed in cold blood simply because one population must survive at the others' expense. Is it sin?

Animals eat one another, steal one another's food - eat one another's children. Animals sometimes eat people. Beavers build dams and flood areas, driving other animals from their homes. Is it sin?

An asteroid crashed into the earth, killing off every living thing on the surface - is it sin?

I'm sure an animal doesn't want to get eaten - it will avoid being eaten, when threatened with it, it will run for it's life, fight, etc. One animal does violence to another.

Humans may think we're all high and mighty because we have greater awareness than an animal, but there are scales of awareness even beyond our own. To those states of higher awareness, we're just doing what we do - it's not good or bad, it's not sin or virtue; it's just humans being human.

The concept of Sin comes from the argument that as an individual, you are important, and deserve to be respected according to certain guidelines. No one should steal your stuff, no one should kill you, no one should sleep with your mate (somewhat arbitrary), no one should impinge on your happiness, security, or health in any way. Because everyone feels this way, violating these basic desires for ourselves is Sin. The vast, vast majority of people don't even take God into account when considering Sin.

My point is, God isn't the source of all evil; Evil doesn't exist, nor does Good. The cosmos, and certainly God, the Absolute, is beyond all mortal conception of right or wrong. We're just selfish, immature beings with a sense of superiority and a desire to be allowed to maintain an illusion of safety, security and happiness for our material body and it's accessories. You're going to die whether someone kills you or not. If you're happy now, one day you won't be. Then you'll be happy again, and then not, and so on. You're going to lose everything you have ever or will ever own. Nothing you or anyone else says will ever be true; You'll never live up to the standards of a saint and neither will anyone else. Even saints have skeletons in their closet. You are not safe, you are not secure, and you never will be. And that doesn't even have anything to do with the phantom idea of evil and sin on the part of other people or God.

Does that mean it's okay to kill? Not unless you absolutely have to.
Does that mean it's okay to steal? Not unless you can't survive otherwise.
Does that mean you should sleep with your neighbor's mate? Sure, go for it, people are far too uptight about sex. Use a condom.

Being stuck inside a box with definitions of Good and Evil, Sin and Virtue, God and Satan, is a limiting and very small box to try and live in, most people can't be happy in such a small space (although i imagine very small people fit just fine). I prefer to replace sin and virtue with Necessity. Necessity sees no good or evil - only what must or must not be done in any given situation. Then, your decisions are guided moment by moment, and are dependent upon your ultimate Goals. Other people's necessities will conflict with yours. You'll be back in the pool with everyone else, but acting on a far more logical and practical mode of judgment. It's not as cozy as a black and white guide to right and wrong, and it requires a fair bit of clarity and courage, but it will more accurately reflect the kind of person you really want to be. Following arbitrary rules of an ancient Church State from the dark ages, you're not a 'good' person - you're just obedient.

Blame God all you want though - The Absolute simply is; it is impassive, uncaring, never spiteful, never happy. Nothing you or anyone does, says, thinks, or assumes will make any difference. Blaming god for sin is a fruitless endeavor that amounts to blaming the sun for shining. Wear sunglasses.

peace
V

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Jul 4 2008, 04:25 PM

This is all very interesting, but I already read the four agreements, read many lives many prophets,and many other books about GOD being everything and karma.......so I understand what you think and what you believe, but you can not forget that humans are in need of some ethics and an beliving in sin its a good way to give ethics an valuable virtues...and all of that stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)

Spell checker sucks I hope I cought all the typos and weirdness of the spell checker.

Yes, that is quite true, and that is why we have the concept of sin. It may have even been given to us by the gods/goddesses. Which I believe to be ascended masters, and/or very advanced humanoids trying to get us on the right track. It was also used as a control mechanism by the Church, and still is used in that way. Karma you have the same effect but it would be very difficult to control the masses. In fact you would have less control because it puts everything on the individual It also teaches responsibility better then Sin. It is in the christian literature " as you sow so shall you reap".

It is very hard to drop the brain washing of our culture, especialy since it has been taught for 5000 yrs. Once you understand the nature of of GOD sin starts to fall apart. Karma makes more senseto most people need that sin concept or anarcanarchyd arrisarisetually we are seeing that now, sin only works as long as one is still hanging on to the notion of GOD taking notes and ready to pass judgement. With Karma you judge yourself re-incarnate and pay you dues, it is far more complicated then that however. It is the way we learn, the way we evolve. Once you get a clearer understanding of Karma, sin falls apart.

Ok, with sin we have police to handel thoesthose don't care, we see that now, as peolppeopleaway or just don't believe the fairy tales, they stop belibelievingHeaven/Hell. With a clearer understanding of Karma you would not need the police, you have internal police (as the Dali Lama would put it).
With Karma you have a good chance, with sin chances are slim. EVEN IF GOD was someone taking notes he leaves little chance of going to heaven. This makes no sense as he is suposupposedbe all loving and compcompassionate. There is little room for comacompassion love with sin. Yes they will try to tell you there is compassion but only for the Saint.

Do we burn for our sins? Yes, but not etereternallyd not becubecause commanded it. It is because at death we do our review, we are our own judge and jury. We are totatotallyartial, there are no excuses or shershirkingresoresopnciblitythis review. We pass our own judgement. Then we design our next incarnation, to right the wrongs and learn. At least this is the ideal and most follow that ideal. PersPersonallyging myself scares the hell out of me. I do not like the posspossibility I would not want to be judged by me. Also there are instances where a spirit does not get it and spirals down (devolves). What is in store for them how does the universe get the bastards..... EvenEventual energy that is that soul or spirit disperses, there is no entity at that point (eternal life for the sin crowd). Where the burning comes in is when we die we can not physphysicalksmokearrets, drink, take heriheroinere is no crack. I took extrextrememples to make a point. But we can be addicted to other things such as a mate, TV, candy, ANYTHING. When we can't get it but still can see it, prehperhapsll it what ever the longing and want creacreatesriction that makes a heat. So that is where the Hell idea comes in. Once the craving is "Burned off" we then go about setting up our lessens for the next time.

Like I said once understood it makes more sencsense the way around. At this time cilicivilasionon its last leg so you have a lot of people collected, at each end time this being the 4th going to the 5th, you get a lot of souls/spirits that just don't get it. You have that on the Astral also. This end time is one of the grand ones (maybe they all are) where the universe is cleaning house, big time. There is a war going on on the Astral right now, when it is done there it is our turn. Once the universe clean up the energy then we have a period where enlightenment is more difficult as every is so close that they can't see the forest for the trees. In our time it is obvious that we are farther form that but it is easier to move on because it is more obvious that something is very wrong and we have gotten off track. The hindus have it all figured out in the Ugas (sp) I believe it is all explained in the Book of Manu (something like that). I have not put much effort into Hinduism but I have had it explained by one. I'm not sure if this is correct but I think this is the text you can read it on line (I have not by the way).
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu.htm

So when we are at a cercertain level of understanding the concept of Sin is needed, once you gain understanding (over many lives sometimes) you get closer to the truth which is Karma. As you take on responsibility you move up with responsibility comes abilities. You could call it power however I have noticed as one gains the understanding and the aabilitiesone is less likely to use it.

For example (at the risk of offending some, NOT MY IINTENT Weather magick. Very popular, there is a rational for it. Fairly easy to do. I have done it myself. I did it once in the ppresentsof my teacher. Whoooo did I get a lecture. Basically on did I think I was smarter then the very planet I live on. Taking rain for my Basil means no rain for someone elses flowers. Also there is a control problem which could be ddisastrous You get the idea. So yes I could do it, but once all things were considered, in all honesty I could not. As stated my teachers taught "power" but also tried to lead us to wisdom.

One time I went to ooneof the Wiccan sabbths it was summer. I live in FL. We KNOW rain here, and we have more llightningthen most places on the planet I think we are 2nd. A storm blew in We have small (comparatively) storms that do more damage than Hurricanes. As the storm mover over the circle it started to rain. You could see the deluge coming. The HP said he would open the circle for anyone that wanted to leave before it really started to come down. Most stayed. I did, WE GOT DRENCHED. We also completed the ceremony (not wiccan so forgive me if it is called something else). They certianly could have moved the rain elsewere, they could have made a logical rational for doing so. There were near 50 people there, many of them could have moved the rain and lightning together it would have been as easy as stepping over a crack in the sidewalk. No one even suggested it or I did not hear it, if someone did they were out voted.
They did the right think, the ceremony was quite impressive lots of energy raised I have a lot of respect for these people. They since moved the place where they held their group functions and I have lost touch.

An understanding of the Aascended Masters is a help also. Which is some what included in the reading suggestions in the previous post.

Again this is what I have come to understand. What is true depends on the level of understanding. Example I was reading my Moms encylopedia one day, (she is 86) the encylopedia was one from her college days printed in the 30's the atom was the smallest unit and could not be split. We now understand that CConsciousnessit the smallest unit and the atom can unfortunately be split. With Knowledge comes responsibility, with this we have done only a fair job.

Krell

uhhh, i see you are very wise krell (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spoton.gif)

I guess where I get kinda confused is by trying to "blame" God for all the wrong in the world. I think we try to personify God in certain ways to try to make sense of his nature and place in the universe. In doing so I think we actually detract from the true nature of God. First off God isn't a "he". In reality nobody, not with mere human intellect can ever truely know what God is. There just isn't a way to completely understand God. What is God to me, is not to someone else. And still some choose to say he doesn't exist at all. I certainly do not believe there is this Gandolf looking figure sitting high above the clouds looking down on the world. I also don't believe there is a little imp with a red suit, pitch fork and pointy tail that calls him satan either. In order to blame God for anything we would need to understand what God, what he is capable of that we can even blame him for doing. In my opinion the only thing we can blame God for is the creation of the universe.

Then I don't think God "chooses" to do anything. Rather his existance is such that he simply brang into existance all that ever was and will be and all possibilities inbetween. I don't think God made evil rather that evil is merely a perception of certain actions guided by an intelligent force. Certainly we can agree that while something that may seem evil to one person, does not seem that way to another. But I think we can also agree that certain actions are universally seen as evil by humans - child abuse, especially sexual abuse is considered universally an evil act. Even in the animal kingdom as well. For example a female lion that kills other lion cubs will be exiled from the pride. Yet a male lion that kills the cubs of another rival male is not exiled. Like wise while we humans see sex crimes against children as universally evil, perceptions of such acts still differ. An example of that is marriage. Around the world, even in developed core nations, it is not uncommon for a grown man to get married to a 14 year old, or even younger. Here in America we would call that pedophillia. And in the case of true pedophilla the purpetrator, from the own perception, rarely sees what they do as wrong. True pedophiles may realize that sex with children is legally wrong but they still would likely not make the moral connection. If the majority of world were pedophiles then sex with children probably would not be seen as evil. Thus what is evil also depends on who says so.

But back to blamming God for all that is considered evil. I really don't think it is fair to blame God or point the finger at him because of his very nature. It is just so hugely vast and incomprehensible. God certainly is the cause for all that is in the universe. He created everything but did he create evil? Or simply make a reality where evil could come into existance on its own, because of the very nature of existance?

Then when it comes to sin and the truth about it, for me, sin is simply breaking "moral" rules laid down by the church. Reality is, in my view, the bible does not reflect THE word of God. I think to even attempt to grasp the true word of God one's head would explode perhaps. No I think the bible is merely a human interpretation of the word of God and it is not the only word either. I think in every serious religion there is some echo of the true word of God. And sin is simply one more interpretation - one more way to try and understand our existance. Only sin specifically applies to a moral context and the belief that God has morals at all. One of the biggest flaws in any religion that attempts to establish a moral code is that it assumes the source of that code is from some divine entity. Yet anything capable of creating an entire universe in all its vastness probably does not deal with morals at all as such a force is simply too far advanced to even need morals. Hence creating a universe in which to start neither good nor evil exist yet they evolve from the very nature of the universe itself.

Very well put V. Very too the point. I'd like to throw something out about one comment or actually a small part of a comment.

"Humans may think we're all high and mighty because we have greater awareness than an animal, but there are scales of awareness even beyond our own. To those states of higher awareness, we're just doing what we do - it's not good or bad, it's not sin or virtue; it's just humans being human"

Perhaps you didn't mean it this way, but do animals have less awareness then humans? I'm not so sure. A different angle, and of different things certainly. stare into the eyes of a manatee some time if you get the chance. I suspect the whale and the dolphin would be similar. It is difficult to come up with a description. Its like they are telepathic but our brain can not translate. What about the dogs hearing what does it understand from it, or the bears smell. We don't know.

Ahhhh as usual a story:
I went for a walk in the wood by the house with my dog. At some point I came upon a a dog laying in the path. I ( also a brain fart story) decided to see how close I could get to a dog before it knew I was there (Kids not a good idea, please don't do this at home or anywhere else for that matter). My dog knowing what I was up to stood an watched. He was probably thinking Now what is the idiot doing? Well I am or was good in the woods and been in this one since I was 7, I was 20 at the time. I got literally with in 18 inches. Wow Look at me... yea look at me... oh crap what now it hasn't seen me yet. The dog was NOT sleeping by the way. Well can I back up as well, 1 step back... nope. The dog caught me out of the corner of his eye and froze. He got up so slow it looked like he was being pump up. I was trying to maintain, stepping back a little faster. It dog got about 1/3 the way up, and sprung into the air, spinning to face me. I didn't know a dog could jump that high. He let out a yelp. about 12 more came out of nowhere. They formed a circle around me and started to walk around me. All I could do was remain calm as possible, and try to pick up one why I chose to die this way torn to bits by a pack of dogs. My dog (who I'd forgotten about) walked through the circle from behind me and appeared at my side. He sat beside me, looked up at me like you dumb a--. The circle stopped, the dogs face in. I thought here is comes. My dog walked up to the one in front of us. Nose to Nose they started growling and making sounds I had not heard out of dogs before, groweling all the same. This went on for 2 or 3 minutes. I was fastinated. They stopped, my dog came back sat at my side. The dog he was talking to gave a yelp, then started down the path the other dogs fell in behind. Later I walked through the middle of the pack they paid no attention.

Anyway something to think about. It was like dogs had a super secret that few humans are exposed to. I suspect the human delusions of grandeur go deeper then we suspect... at any rate for those of us that realize we ain't that great. Heck, there aren't too many (if any) that fowl their own nest, as humans do... we're not even house broken :-)

Krell

Dogs, cats, monkeys, dolphins, whales, manatees, and humans are all social creatures that have social orders. Social animals are naturally altruistic. Humans are no different except that since we have a more complicated ego we must balance our instinct of self preservation with the instinct to preserve the community in a more complicated fashion. Of course, this is where law and business and religion stems from. Religion particularly seems to play the important role of sustaining community, and at the same time selling a more personal (longer lasting!) promise of actualization for each individual. Is it any wonder that the same concept that rules the basics of government rules the basics of organized religion? Think about it. Government provides a system of leadership and direction. It also has regulations and enforcements. It provides personal incentives. Anarchy has none of this. Religion provides direction. whether that be enlightenment, eternal life, being saved...any and all of these things usually has to do with 'coming into' or some sort of ascension. Religion also provides definition. People love to think in duality. male female, right wrong, life death, incomplete and completion. People love to constantly be reaching for something, anything. It is human nature to be striving in this way. We love to analyze ourselves, and because we are never satisfied and we must keep reaching for the entire picture, well the hunger for more becomes a way of life and it runs us out of our garden. What is wrong with us? Why are we still searching? There must be something wrong with us. There must be something better! We must transcend ourselves into a more perfect nature. And thus evolved sin. It was 'the apple' that done us in!
So sin evolved, and because we are creatures in love with the metaphor...and abstract mystery, because mysteries that can never be solved are the greatest and most compelling reasons to live for; we will always debase ourselves in favor of a hypothetical better-ness.
It is a drive that we cannot weed out of ourselves, so dont try because you would just be negatively reinforcing it anyway; we can only learn to love ourselves for what we are, in our most origional forms-naked and ignorant and human.

On these terms, if we love ourselves and we do not prioritize others over ourselves (and vice versa) we will be much happier individuals. This balance, which is with us when we are born, and follows us only up to childhood...is what i call innocence. Animals are innocent. They are balanced creatures that live within themselves and their surroundings and are comfortable with their instincts.

This post has been edited by valkyrie: Jul 11 2008, 06:24 PM

Some animals have more or less awareness than others - some humans have more or less awareness than others. Some animals may be more aware than humans, and some humans may be more aware than some of the beings situated just above us on the chain.

All I can say for sure is that in my experience I have only explored the bands of awareness associated with a few other mammals, a lizard, and some kinds of trees - and in all cases, I have ultimately come to the conclusion that based on what I can remember of the experiences over time, this particular plants and animals seem to have a more specialized, but limited awareness. More importantly, they are locked into their potential, which is unlocked far slower than human potential. I've heard several theories on why that is.

I can maximize the use of any of my senses, and more importantly I have the awareness of that potential to do so. I can specialize in any of thousands of skills requiring my particular human-ness to both learn and accomplish, and again I am aware that such things are possible. I can expound particular bands of awareness through observation and make conjectures based on those observations about aspects of the world around me I have not yet encountered - this are things that animals cannot do, or are, in the case of particular aware animals, have extreme limitations in comparison to a human, based largely on their awareness of certain things.

An animal's, or a plant's for that matter, awareness is specialized, narrower but possibly more acute in that narrow bandwidth, than a human's, however, a human's band of awareness is simply wider - we have the potential to maximize any are of that awareness rather than being specifically wired into a particular state of awareness.

As that relates to the nature of sin - as Valkyrie intimates, it arises from the complexity of our social order, based on our awareness of one another in a grand scale. It's not that a dog cannot be aware that there are other dogs in the world outside it's immediate area, but it cannot immediately be aware of and acknowledge the idea that there are dogs everywhere in the world, and certainly does not take into account the repercussions of it's actions here and now, across the entire local, national, or global population of Dogs. It simply doesn't enter into the Dog's mind - just as it never enters into the average human's mind how it's immediate mental activity is affecting the surrounding ether, and other ethereal bodies elsewhere on that plane of existence.

peace
V

Yes I pretty much agree, I think that we just don't give them enough credit. Plants and animals seem to be much more specialized, plants certainly. I believe there is more awareness then we know. I have seen animals know they just did something that if caught they will get in trouble. They were not good at hiding their guilt. I have experienced some degree of awareness with plants. I wouldn't say that it is equal to that of most humans. Since telepathy was not suppressed in our family I link very easy with animals and minerals. Come to think of it I have met rocks that have a lot more going on in them than some humans. Max for instance (pics in Gallery), is beyond belief, you can carry on conversations with this rock (and others), not only that but Max can have group discussions.
Did you know that a dog can be aware of 14 things at once... most humans have difficulty at 3, with out training. In 30+ years I am up to a shaky 30 points.
I just suspect there is a lot more going on with animals and minerals and maybe not all of it is in our bandwidth.

I also agree that it is individual it you put a lump of coal next to Max I would suspect you would get more from Max.

So while I do not disagree with you I just there is more going on, I also prefer the company of animals to most humans. When I was young I spent a lot of time with them.

Krell

now that the level of awareness can be weighed against the degree of guilt creatures feel (which does not necessarily point to sin but is conveniently connected with it) perhaps we should explore the prospects guilt represents in the animal kingdom. How does guilt reward animals? Obviously it is a powerful preventative, for those who have an awareness of the near future, but sin in the animal world is not the same as it is in the human world. For instance, animals live under simple conditioning. They do something, and then they receive tangible, immediate reinforcement. Results can be good, and they can be bad. Of course, guilt is only present with social animals that must work together or 'divided they fall'. The bigger the group, the more complex a hierarchy, the more rules. And then the larger the spectrum between severe punishment and delicious reward. sin is not sin in the animal world.
however, sin is a clever device for humans.
When presented with an unnaturally large population of people who operate on this system without the natural conditioning that would otherwise insure that individuals maintain a healthy socialization process, depravity breeds. I believe without guilt, 'sin' is perfectly possible, and more so-guilt helps to prevent sin. It does not augment it, and it certainly does not define it. The presence of guilt does not prove that sin is possible-conscience does not birth right and wrong...it is simply a tool used to weigh potential reward against potential loss versus potential punishment.
I do not like the word 'sin'; it is too convenient an expression. To me, any race that spawns and cultivates the concept of sin is only proving how unbalanced and unnatural its conditions have become; the pure process of action and consequence is no longer enough.

You are right and you are wrong- (Divine Dichtonomy)

In the greater scheme of things there is but One. Everything is part of God and looking to apportion blame is simply ignoring the fact that You are part and parcel of the Architect of this experience.

The only way for God to experience knowledge is to separate- you are god separated from God inorder to know experience.

Don't worry yourself- nothing is without cause or purpose.

Are good and evil real or do they only appear, as we perceive them or at least as we have been taught to perceive them.

I would say that they are only real relative to the perception each of us holds in thier mind. The Universal, the spirit, the source, doesn't need these dualities ... we do ..... or at least think we do.

This is a fascinating post. I think what the OP is talking about is truly profound, and a sign of a very mature way of spiritual thinking. At the core you could say is the questioning of 'first cause' - since everything must emanate from first cause, doesn't that make god responsible for everything? This is a deep realisation and one which I suspect can't be trivially answered - or satisfied - with mere pedantries. I think anyone who has wrestled with the concept of sin or evil (and let's go beyond mere semantics here) knows that this is a big deal.

I haven't read every single response on this topic but note that there are quite a few replies from the 'relativist' point of view. Perhaps 'sin' is a Judeo/Christian concept. Perhaps 'karma' is a Hindu/Buddhist concept. Actually, as one of the posters has already pointed out, these are quite different things. I suspect it's because the former implies an established sense of guilt and shame (due to the inherent nature and pervasiveness of the Judeo-Christian thoughtform) and the latter much more of a personal, actionable mode of decision making - without any overriding sense of an omnipotent punishing deity (which is, quite understandably, reassuring!)

But this is big stuff. Really. You can try to provide solutions from a Hindu/Buddhic worldview but a Judeo/Christian upbringing makes the concept of sin a bit trickier to just dissolve in an instant. Possibly because - just by virtue of being human - there is already something terribly wrong with you (according to Old Testament teachings). This is not the same concept as espoused by eastern teachings at all. It might sound naive to some but the age-old question of 'why does God let bad things happen to good people?' is astonishingly heartfelt and meaningful.

For my own very personal part, I have to say that I never paid too much thought to the concept of 'sin' itself until one quite significant day. And on that day I saw that the true 'meaning' of sin was everything that I'd been, said, thought and done which was not from the heart. Strangely enough that day was Good Friday - I 'repented' in the Christian sense - and I'm not even a Christian! I wasn't even aware of anything from a cultural or religious perspective! But the esoteric implications were significant. I saw deeply, in my heart of hearts, that repentance and sin normally carry the heavy burden of judgement borne of guilt only in the biblical sense. But the openness of total love seemed to me to render all this unnecessary, and actually an impediment to true release. We are not born to suffer or to pay for anyone else's 'wrong doing'. There's a lot more to be debated on the cosmology and metaphysics of all this I'm sure, and I bet there will be lots of disagreements, but this is a serious issue I feel. And, as Kevin Spacey says in the movie K-Pax: "Every being in the universe knows right from wrong, Mark......"

This post has been edited by Trimorphia: Nov 3 2008, 08:28 PM

Sin is a short-hand religious term that simply means: any behavior that either I, or my religious group, disapproves you doing and wants you to stop doing.

Thank you.

If you ask Buddhists or Hindus they would consider killing animals to be "sin".
If you ask a Muslim it would be consider the eating of pork etc.


The whole notion of "sin" varies from one religion to another.

God is the true artist of our livelyhood and our feelings. He is the designer of our space.
When we turn away for our true Self and into the Ego, the world around us, it becomes us.
The Creator's plan, his project has been tarnished.
We are here to grow, to evolve.
The more we come to Becoming, the more we realized how important it is to become apart of his plan.
We will be closer to him.
We humans are a small part of the Story.
HIs is Infinite and the impossible.
Me, myself wouldn't question him, because he knows what's best.
We are hurting ourselves. Any harm to another is true sin.
Giving into the ego and is not giving into the Universe. That's where the fault lies.
Yes, there are demonic spirits out there. I am aware of that.
Satan, I would be too surprised that he exist. Look at us, we are hating and killling each other.
We tend to pin the blame on Satan for such activity.

This Universe was created with love and light.
We are lost.