What do you think?

Personally, I'm not sure. But in my experience there isn't any reason to suspect that a more intelligent person is more capable of doing Magick. I'd say Magick comes from the spiritual essence of a person, and that intelligence and Will are not related.

I would have to say no. Knowledge of the self and discipline of mind and body, I believe, are the building blocks to a strong Will and a powerful magickian. However, someone who embodies all of these qualities would make an extremely capable and powerful magickian, as they would know themselves and the world around them and be able to direct their Will toward their desires in the most effective way possible.

I'd also have to say no. Generally I've found that the ones with the strongest will are of average intelligence, or perhaps slightly higher. I know a lot of geniuses, but I wouldn't peg them as particularly strong of will. Magic tends to come more from the gut than the brain in any case.

Current trends in psychology show that high intelligence in human beings increases the risk of depression. Logically so, because constantly rationalizing the world around you eventually makes the whole picture look very cynical, especially when you pick the world apart to its mechanical constituents. Eventually, being depressed about the world gives one a sense of "hopelessness" associated with prolonged cynicism, therefore causing the intelligent human to "lose the will" to move forward.

"What's the point?" syndrome.

Example of a comical archetype: Marvin, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.


Therefore, I actually postulate the opposite is true: Higher intelligence runs the risk of lowering magick's effectiveness.

What COULD help, however, is developing "Magickal Thinking" as a cognitive skill.... a post for another time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm firmly in the 'maybe' camp. The ability to do magic really resides within each individual, and I've known intelligent people who were great magicians. I've also known ones that fancied themselves as such and wound up quite literally going insane. I've also known not-so-bright people who had spectacular results, and others who didn't. So... *shrug*

I think intelligence makes it easier to *learn,* esp. if you're in a tradition that relies heavily on written texts, but it's not necessarily a requirement. Strength of will depends on the individual and what goal that individual is trying to reach at any given time. Intelligence and will are both very subjective things.

Greetings All!
I love this topic! You have so many variables lurching around...*grin* I don't think that intelligence necessarily procures a better quotient for magic ability. A strong will is not dependent upon ones intelligence. With my experience over the years it has shown me the case (or so one would be led to believe) that some of the more powerful magicians came from middle range intelligence or even lower! Intellectualizing can be detrimental to creative flow (for a host of reasons). Alternately, I've found that those of extremely high intelligence can find themselves operating in spheres quite removed from the 'norm' and thereby granting them the 'protections' of that difference in thinking. All this is predicated upon the individuals capacity to be in tune with their creative flow and the universe around them. This is not so easily answered...It's not that easily categorized. Sorry, but I hate these polls, they're too black and white and we all know that magic is multi-hued! There are certain facets of magic that lend themselves to a more scholarly approach and others that rely on gut-level reaction, no intelligence required. Armchair magicians tend to be of higher intelligence as they delve into antiquaties, dead languages and conceptual magics whereas some 'hedge witchery' doesn't necessarily need nimble minds. The Will is needed and it could be dumb as a post! Theoretically a combination of high intelligence, the will power of a rock and the ability to sense and understand the energy flows/universal tides will give you a good magician. The ability to affect reality is different from just creative flow but it goes a long way! I've noticed that those with strong gifts in creative flow make good magicians. But...again, this generalization can take us just so far. LOL! This is becoming long winded and of little content. Anyone need some snake oil? LOL! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/horse.gif)

HEY! Whaddaya tryin' to say there!??! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angry_pissed_off_emoticon.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Sometimes being an "Armchair Magician" holds a certain stigma. Believe me, though, I realize my flaws in being thus, and am doing by best to change. "Armchair Magician..." Dem's fightin' words, partner!

LOL! I wasn't pointing fingers! I find myself sliding in that direction with the encroaching old age and medical infirmities...
Fighting words! That's about all I can fight with nowadays! *grin* But I'm not all that intelligent either *sigh* so....where does that leave me?

I've never thought of you(all) as being the derogatory side of 'armchair' though it does tend to cause some to bristle. Lifes too short. Find magic where you will. Looking down at people is not a good thing (*gasp*)...this isn't or needn't be a pissing contest. Again, life is too short! I'm glad we have our sense of humor, I always get a chuckle when I look in a mirror! Be well! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/egypt1.gif)

damn right it can! i find that many smarter than average people, while equipped with fast problem solving skills... with a sensational grasp on logic and keen eye for detail, are not necessarily better at overcoming self-inflicted mental obstacles (i would argue they have a harder time) and are limited to a smaller range of thinking because no one is there to take them out of their thought patterns and mental habits or they simply can't relax their rationalizations. but that is only one bone i have to pick with high IQs. the smarter a person is, the more alienated that person feels from those who surround him...at least, in theory. it doesn't have to be this way but it often is. for me, connection is essential. but then again, i practice earth based magic. it may be different for someone involved in Enochian magic i dunno.

my twin brother is a genius, but he constantly says to me that i will get farther in life. why? because he is not motivated. i am. whether he is less motivated because he is smarter is questionable...however, in the magical arena...he is far too rational to be a mystic and therefore he does not invite that kind of energy or experience into his life, as readily as i do. also, he argues that because intelligence often results in a stronger sense of Ego, he has a more difficult time assimilating into the Source (or whatever accumulative god power each of you believe in) and it is to his personal detriment that he pursues further knowledge. My hypothesis?: An over-abundance of intelligence solidifies Ego, and Ego holds a person back from enlightenment.

so i guess a really good question is does Ego defeat or enhance Will Power. are they the same? i do not think they are. Ego is a false god, but Will Power comes from the simple act of existing.

But to marry these two elements would make for exceptional magic! -V

I'd say that the Ego can gather magical power. I think of it as energy that a Lhp would use, as in the loss of Self results in positive or light energy and the Ego, the fortification of Self, gathers in negative or dark energy. I'm suggesting that a strong ego would have powerful magic that harmed others and strengthened yourself, while the loss of Ego would result in strong "white" magick. I do believe that one could harness both.

I would need a working definition of what is considered intelligent before I could consider a reply.
Are we speaking of academic intelligence?
Physicists on the whole make a terrible mage.
On the other hand the genius of the infant who learns more in 6 months of its life than we do in 8 years of academia makes the finest mage of all.

Although I do not believe that intelligence is the deciding factor in magical development, I do not think that it necessarily hinders it, though maybe this is just my own case (pardon the sound of me blowing my own horn, as it were!)

I see intelligence as applying really only to certain approaches to magic. Although there is certainly the pure creative/abstract approach and it bears results in its own merit, there is an intellectual approach to magic as well. The study of symbols, formulae, patterns and correlations, associations between symbols, between cultures, etc., these things require I believe some intelligence to grasp efficiently, though and ounce of diligence is worth a pound of intelligence. Their application can be calculated or approached intuitively.

My own approach to magic is largely intellectualized because I look for symmetries, geometries, correlations, and internal consistencies that justify the magic I do as well as grant it (to my own eyes at least) a sort of 'fit' into the universe that I want to affect in some way.

Those aspects of my own practice which are more raw and creative than intellectually creative are just as effective but are often less calculated in their results. If I take one approach or the other to some magical goal, then the 'creative' approach will often bring about results that at first don't seem entirely related to the goal, until everything has had time to run its course, and I find myself standing where I originally intended to be standing when I executed the operation. If I take the intellectual approach, often the results are more defined, but can be at times not as 'natural' and require greater flexibility and change on my part to adjust to the new circumstances brought about.

As an intellectually focused individual, I can at least say that it can be hard to let go at times and allow the intuition and raw creative side of the brain to work autonomously - it tends to be the side more concerned with 'going with the flow' whereas the intellectual side wants to plan and calculate and make a single focused action rather than continuously adjusting. The creative is a gentle curve of change, whereas the intellectual is a sudden angular diversion, if that makes sense.

I think the key in either case, whether one is particular creative or intellectual, it to simply find the appropriate approach to magic. Both creativity and intelligence have a place in consciousness, they both are ways of processing and applying information, and they aren't really, in my opinion, entirely separate. Often times we simply associate art, music, creative expression, as the realm of creativity whereas math, science, facts and figures seem to be placed in the 'intelligence' category. Really though it seems to me that intelliegence is just the ability to collect and correlate information, and creativity is the ability to apply that information in novel ways - not necessarily novel on the grand scale, but novel for the individual. There are different kinds of intelligence and different kinds of creativity.

A physicist who is very intelligent still has to think creatively to solve problems and develop new approaches to discover the answers he/she is looking for. An artist must still understand the nature of different mediums and their relationship to the kinds of expression s/he wants to create.

So I don't think this is any kind of black and white question that could be answered so easily, and we certainly cannot lay blanket statements like Physicists on the whole making terrible mages.

Your intelligence or creativity will only hinder you in any regard whatsoever, if you do not understand through experience and open mindedness the different ways they can be applied - and that is neither a matter of intelligence or creativity, but of simple experience.

peace

I answered 'yes'. Basically, I believe (and I think most of you will agree) intelligence is quite helpful in learning things, so one could assume that if you learn better (=faster and with a grasp of the whole picture), you are likely to achieve a higher level of proficiency at anything (including magick) faster than someone who is... erhm... rather slow off the mark, or whatever you call it. Faster means that you can do more progress in one lifetime, so theoretically in the end you will increase your proficiency. 'Better learning' can apply not only to memorizing the whole Liber 777 (good luck :]) but also to perceiving how one thing subtly influences the other and figuring out quickly what works better for you (things like 'if I think of it, maybe it was the huge dinner I'd eaten that made it hard for me to vibrate...' etc.)

PLUS if you accept Gardner's multiple intelligence then I'd say that intrapersonal intelligence with its insight, control over thoughts and emotions etc. is VERY likely to make you a more efficient magician.

I answered "no" since intelligence is more of the realm of the phisical rather then the energetic side of things(in my view). I think it can help but(!) when approached by the right field of study where it is required. I think this "field" has so manny approaches to it that no matter the person or what they are lacking(phisicaly) can be compensated by the right approach. My personal methods require a lot of memmorising of theories, practical use and diffrent reactions to what you did energeticaly. Thus knowing what to do to cause a certain "effect" or "reaction. It requires i would say not only a sharp mind but also a creative one since thinking of new theories and achieving new goals requires considering all the information that i gathered so far and thinking of a new way to use it to uncover a new ellement\reaction to further my studies and reach new goals. I of course read a lot of metrial when i am faced with something my current understanding seems to be lacking but its a long proccess of mix and match and then trial and error. Anyway my point is that this specific approach is my cup of tea. Someone else might find it hard or confusing. You get where im going with this? Your question is a valid one but it has no room here simply because if you lack something to a certain approach there is allways a more suitable one waiting behind the corner. Some have certain ellements to them that shine more and others that shine less and thats correct for all of us but it doesnt stop us from achieivng the same goals just means we take diffrent roads to get there, ones that suit us best.

So in conclusion your question should be "What magick path is more suitable for a person like (put set of random skills\mental dissabilities here) in your opinion?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

Further more to my personal conclusions(and im sure that they are quite general ones for manny others) regarding spiritual structure vs intelligence and will. I believe that everything within you has a part to play to make the end result come about. At least in my practice and im sure in manny others there is no result without its base structure such as: will(intent)+imagination(plan\wanted change\result)+energy(building blocks). There are manny more smaller and diffrent parts both within you and outside that also play an importent part in all that is "magick"(as popularly regarded lately). So yeah.

I think i said enough all throughout this thread there are just too manny ideas to go with and id rather keep it short. ^^;

This post has been edited by Shimi: Feb 21 2010, 06:06 PM

To clarify my vote, I don't believe that intelligence has a direct correlation with a person's strength of will. However, intelligence could easily aide in making one's magic more efficacious.

Of course, it could also just get in the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sweatdrop.gif)

I voted yes. I believe there is a general correlation between the two, but not a direct influence.

Sorry misread the question, I meant to click "NO".

After some time, I want to change my vote, seeing as how I have changed overtime due to practice and meditation. Do I have that option? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)