I have done quite a bit of energy work, and im starting to get confused.

Where does the energy come from?

Psionics says directly from the mind.

Chakras says from below, from nature,

Middle pillar has energy directly from the divine involved.

I've heard of energy coming directly from yourself.

so i'm asking.


WHERE DOES IT REALLY COME FROM?

ALL THESE PLACES? JUST ONE?

WHATS THE DIFFERENCE?

IS THERE ONE?

From what I understand, Prana / Ka comes from the Universal Energy Source and is filtered down by our Higher-Self to our Subtle Bodies by way of the Soul (Ba). We then use this Ka along with projection of Will to cause change.

"where does magic come from?" - nice koan! - thanks!

where does electricity come from? - electromagnetic like a generator or chemical like a battery - both work on an atomic level to strip off electrons and send them through the wire

a infrared grill or stove heats through the use of invisible light, vibrating the atoms - so does a microwave, using invisible radio frequency energy to vibrate the atoms

psionics (energy work) is using the body's energy to vibrate

magicians vibrate

magic is the same - a vibration that affects stuff

google 'string theory' for a good starting point

in the void there is no magic

a thousand cultures each have their own theory, are they all wrong, or all they all right, or does it matter if you recognize that magic just 'exists'

This post has been edited by esoterica: May 6 2009, 05:26 AM

woah

way over my head.

quantum mechanics....

so basically you are saying that there is no real way to know, and that it doesn't matter?


Personally i disagree.

But we are entitled to our own ideas.

but im asking personally, when working with energy where do you draw the energy from?

The world,

the mind?

The "Divine"

Your body?

Thanks for the post btw ankhape

Personally I work with spirits

And I allow my vibrational energy to be passed along with my intentions to help carry out my work.

BUT

Personally I see things in this way

With vibration the more something vibrates the more of an effect it has.

Therefore with the psychological vibrations being put out through any form of magic ritual, depending on the amount of vibration being output of course, you shall receive an equal and opposite reaction.

You want enough you shall receive equal to the effort put forth.

A la Newton.

So wherever you "get" your energy from, always make sure it is sufficient for the results you are looking for.

Peace

For what it is worth, being a new kid on the block. I agree with this answer. As contradictory as it appears on the surface. I would even go a step further to say that "majick" is something you "are" more than something you have. And its effects are the drawing pond which attracts us to the "divine" (or the "infernal", if you prefer). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/prop.gif)

The universe is filled with energy. Everything has energy (and depending on how you interpret mass-energy equivalence, everything could be energy too) Occultism is the manipulation of that energy, to bring about change. As stated before, vibration is a key concept to magic, raising the vibratory rate of your consciousness allows you to connect with the subtle energies of the universe. These subtle energies always exist, they don't "come from" anywhere. Just as infrared energy always exists, just at a frequency that we can't see. Visualization, ritual, and focus are all ways to bring yourself to the same frequency and interact with them.

Are you talking about 'magick' or talking about 'energy' ?

If your talking about magick according to Islam it came from two angels who taught it to mankind.
Kabbalists I believe say it was passed down to Adam so he can redeem himself. Of course other cultures & religions have their own myth on where magick comes from.

As for energy as others pointed out its all around us. If you want to say god then thats probably okay as well.


(in a nut shell)

Magic is an overarching generalization of a group of phenomenon not specifically classified scientifically in any empirical manner. Once defined, classified, experimentally verified, etc., it is no longer (classically defined as) magic. So asking 'where does magic come from' is pretty broad. Magic is change, the act of Magic is change in accordance with will (all change is in accordance with a will, though not necessarily just your own - such as divine will, etc.). Therefore the question 'where does magic come from' is erroneous - magic comes from existence, it is existence.

Having specified that you want to know where the energy comes from, this is a different question that asking where magic comes from.

The world, the mind, the divine, the body - energy can be drawn from any of these places. We all have a different way to understand energy work and as Azereth said, energy follows thought. This also means that wherever you are intending to draw the energy from is where it comes from - although, to varying degrees of efficiency depending on your degree of openness and connection to this source. This is part of the reason there are so many different paradigms. That doesn't mean that there's no way to know where you are personally drawing energy from, however.

Myself, for instance, I work energy from a paradigm that recognizes a universal substrate that literally permeates and composes everything, tying the various levels of existence together. Just picking that paradigm is not enough, although it can be a start. After coming to some understanding of how you connect to and fit into existence, you have to begin looking at it genuinely through that lens. There is an existentialist obstacle there for most people - how do you know you're looking through the right lens? The fact of the matter is that you don't and can't know, at least not so early on. Your paradigm will grow and develop on its own over time, and you should remain open minded throughout in order to allow that philosophical evolution to occur. Over time, you develop a firmer understanding and experiential basis for your paradigm, and your work will become more effective. You do have to start somewhere though, and preferably somewhere that is supported by your current degree of understanding.

Some people prefer to draw from an elemental paradigm, seeing 4 or 5 elements, either hermetic or eastern. Others prefer to imagine energy as coming from various deities who represent the various modes of energy. A kabbalist might draw energy from the 32 paths. Runes offer 24 modes of energy. Tarot can offer a variety of modes as well. There are 7 planets.

All these things are different in my opinion because there is only one Essential Force, one Primary Causitive Principle, which is structured into various modes of energy according to material patterns, psychological patterns, and spiritual principles developed ultimately from material and psychological patterns in action. Which came first is like the chicken and the egg question. We can use those symbols and the energetic modes they ultimately represent to draw energy that is already structured, into actions directed by our intention.

Everyone who does energy work, draws that energy from somewhere, and can define where it comes from. It may not always be the same from one person to the other, but ultimately all that matters is that the intention is moving energy. At first, however, it needs anchors at both ends - a place to get energy from, and a place to move it to. Generally most practitioners that I know have become more abstracted over time. I think that it's possible that in most cases the beginner needs to have something more solidly defined because this is how we understand things best at first.

Peace

Quite true. Imagine trying to explain the electromagnetic spectrum and the theories of radiation before the experiments of Marie Curie. Tough show.

"What? An invisible force capable of change? Where is your proof?" We now are able to check it in hertz, as well as with a geiger counter. By looking into the patterns in nature that are measurable, we can find tendencies using the physical properties that we can readily measure: Time, Space, and Excitablility (ability to energize, via heat or some other means to measure amount of change), and other forces that are in a constant state of flux.

If you had a rock of uranium in ancient celtic Ireland, they would have simply thought of it as "the stone of disease" from it's radioactive properties. Now, we know it to be "the rod that runs our powerplants!"

Very true. This may explain why there are so many religions out there. The means of drawing power from higher dimensional sources becomes streamlined when the visualization is given a cultural spin, flavor, and/or bias. Unfortunately, this is a double-edged sword which becomes tainted with the poison of vehement tribalism inherent to the Human Animal.

Why don't you just come out already and call yourself a Jedi!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Especially true for those in the beginning stages of metaphysical practice. Some never make it past this obstacle, and are forced into novice-hood for years because of this viewpoint .

I get a visualization of different drops of water (will, wisdom, and understanding) on a sheet of linen (cloth of existence). They will spread over the cloth (meditation and understanding), from different places (different paradigms), but overtime they eventually expand and even overlap and integrate each other until (after constant application) the entire linen becomes soaked (the will and the truth become integrated- enlightenment (?)).

Some systems work better than others, what can I say. I tried various ones, and am still experimenting with other methods.

Or the Force. Or other people. Or the inner sanctum of your own mind. Or...anywhere. Hey, it's everywhere!

Which, by the way, could be acronymized PCP for your experiential pleasure! (comic relief. Sorry. That was a weak attempt). Trying to find out what came first, the driving force or the mechanism that processes it... It completely boggled me. I damn near-- no wait, I DID experience magickal burnout from trying to figure that out. But that begs a question, what of intentions that are not readily materialized or symbolized? Earlier I thought of trying to come up with a language made specifically for magick, so I can cite your response there as a good answer, but then again, how would one go about acquiring the divinely inspired symbols for said memes?



This is the part where I say, "WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME EARLIER, VAGRANT!?" Which is when you would reply, "You never asked." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

Wonderful post. Bravo.

(Note: A meme is a thought-unit, a conceptual structure. I.e. the idea of a boat is a meme, composed of other memes which are the various concepts that ultimately came together to form idea of a boat. The memes of bouyancy, the physical laws as structured information processable by the mind, all of the materials and tools that were inclusive of the possibilities inherent in the creation of a boat and means to do so, etc. Those memes likewise are components composed of other components, etc. - in short memes are the atoms and molecules of thought and consciousness, although it is fair to say consciousness is a medium of thought, composed of memes in the same way that air can be a medium for the molecules that are percieved as 'smells'. It is complex, but useful in mapping concepts as structures.) edit: Let me clarify that point, consciousness is the substrate of which memes are formed, and is the medium through which they move - pure consciousness itself is 'the super-meme', similar in its relationship to memes as the time-space continuum is related to the matter and activity that takes place within it.

Almost unimaginably rare is the truly isolated meme, they combine and recombine in a process of universal psychic alchemy that dates back to the inception of consciousness. Memes are the substrate of that universal Force given the most primal structure, regardless of how complex that structure is - it is the first entry into manifestation. All of these memes no matter how new a configuration it is, is composed of the original primal memes, the first forays of the Ruach Elohim, the Force, the Elements, etc., into the manifested world. One could suppose that the devopment of consciousness is in itself a collection of solidified memes capable of directing the evolution of less developed memes. additional edit: consciousness here is reference to intellectual consciousness, self-awareness as related to 'thought' and 'thinking'; the structure which governs for us how we think and what we think, passed down to us through conditioning that has developed over time due to the impact of memes. In a way it is the governing meme current of human cultural consciousness, different for different cultures which are subcurrents to the greater human current.

The suggestion here is that consciousness itself is just a collection of memes attached to an organic processor. To say 'just' makes it sound like less than it is. If you sit and think about it for a while, it's a mind-bogglingly remarkable process.

In any case, all symbols which somehow connect us to that greater ocean of undifferentiated or as yet unmanifested memes be they in a universal field of consciousness or otherwise, are completely arbitrary. Established symbols simply connect to pre-established meme-currents (currents through which various memes with a commonality among them flow into and out of manifestation). Establishing a new meme current requires nothing more than the regular usage - the more people to use the better - of a new symbol intended (intention directs energy, memes are structured energy) as a connection to this current. You don't even have to describe it in words as we know them. It is true that materializing new memes (new configurations, really) is very difficult.

As far as divinely inspired symbols go though, there is no inspiration more divine than your own. You might open your mind, allow the current to enter your consciousness, and then wait for your subconscious to show you an appropriate symbol it will be willing and able to make that connection through, but that's about as close as it gets. The symbol itself, in a universal sense, is arbitrary - it's just an agreed upon symbol that represents a kind of pact between you and your mind, or the universal mind, to establish this new current and put it into play.

Remember though, memes have to be shared and passed around to make an impact on the 'meme-pool'. The more influence it develops, the stronger the current itself will become.

This ties back to the topic directly at hand; established sources of energy are going to be more influential. That is why 'acient' symbols are so prevolent, popular, and powerful. They weight of the memes behind them represent vast currents which can be drawn upon. The memes themselves are a bit like gateways to those unstructured currents, as many of them are structures of intention meant to convey the 'concept' of unstructured energies moving throughout creation as a causitive force.



peace

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Jun 22 2009, 08:21 PM

What a great thread . . . everything was born of vibration, all energy ultimately was set into motion and is set into motion by vibration, and the Primordial Vibration was the Big Bang, a Super Nova.

As a Luciferian and an Asetianist I am quite satisfied in this explanation as it aligns perfectly with both Belief engines.
But . . . I really do look forward to everyone's take on this . . . after all, who the heck am I?

Well my take is that magick is its own seperate topic. We could spend a long time defining what magick actually is. As far as where energy used in magick comes from, my answer is all the above, depending on the type of energy you are using. We are all energy just in the form of matter. And many different forms of energy flow through us as well as flow from us. The mind produces psychic energy and the body (that includes the brain) produces life giving energy. Psychic and life energy are all shared by living things and it can be used to manipulate nature around us on a subtle level - at least in theory. As far as any scientific definitions go, then we're really just barking up the wrong tree since anything considered "magickal" doesn't exist in the eyes of mainstream scientist.

(respectfully) (Yes I love you)
It also depends. (Note: I'm not refering to "magic" in the metaphoric sense with my examples here. Just to avoid confusion.)
Crowley does define magick as an art and science.
Parapsychologist do attempt to experimentally verify psyhic abilities. Many of them do believe in the existence of psychic abilities because of the results of their experiments. Even though they have be ridicule by most main stream scientists.
So it depends.



(Of course with respect.) (Yes I love you too.)


From a different angle. I think the reason there are different religions out there is due to different vibrations of energies they create or are receiving. Each has their respective egregore along with their vibration of energy. Just like different radio frequencies.
I think thats why each religion has their own ideal of "Heaven" only because they are looking at different dimensions of existence in the non material worlds. They are not wrong (with each of their different visions of eg Heaven). They are all correct.* Its just they are seeing the different vibration of countless energy streams.

*(eg Thats why a Yakut shaman sees their spiritual world different from a Jivaro shaman. A Hindu priest seeing their spiritual world different than those of a Jewish Rabbi etc etc. All are correct. No religion is wrong in their view of the spiritual worlds.)

This post has been edited by Jenfucius: Jun 23 2009, 08:39 AM

Oops sorry Acid.
I should have read your post befor posting.
Yeah maybe the topic of magick should have its own seperate topic.

woah thanks for all the great replies guys.

especially vagrant dreamer.

you've got me interested now, because it sounds vaguely like what i have "generally" belived...

but explained down to a science.

i dont know what half of that meant... but let me try.

Magical energy if thats what it can be called,
comes from perspective and belief,
which is why things such as religeous magic is easier,
because of the ammount of existing belief.
but overall, whatever system you practice will yield results
...

other than that it was mostly intelligent sounding gibberish to me
something about a lens
or paradigm?

This post has been edited by davisxmonster: Jun 25 2009, 10:04 AM

In essence paradigm = religon. However, a paradigm doesn't have to be religious.

Other than that, yeah you got the essence of it.

Jenfucious: All I mean by dividing magic and science is that 'science' is that realm of phenomenon which are understood and explained, or at least theorized on from an empirical point of view based on other known scientific laws. Metaphysical laws ultimately encompass those physical laws, however there is no technology which utilizes specifically the realm of energy manipulation and generation of change that we attribute to the subject of 'magic'. Crowley is not the first to consider magic a 'science', personally I consider myself a neo-hermetic scientist more than i could consider myself anything else. However in that sense science is simply meant as a 'field of knowledge and techniques', rather than the empirical decayed sciences of modern man.

This is not to say that no scientist recognizes the process of or the worth of 'magic', or even attempts to develop some scientific idea of how it functions - just that there is no hard factual equation describing mathematically the qualities and forces at work in any action of 'magical' nature. That doesn't mean there never will be, just that we do not have instruments which give us adequate information by which to develop those equations effectively. Observable does not just mean 'seen with the eye', but measured in some way comparatively for the purpose of amassing sufficient data to understand the phenomenon in a predictable fashion in which raw mathematical theory can be used to accurately predict the outcome of some action.

peace