I just wanted to open up a discussion on this topic. It recently struck me that if we can create/destroy so easily on the astral plane then we should be able to do the same thing here, and with the same tools; your mind. I've been on a philosophy book binge lately and my elementary thought processes brought me to the conclusion that if life could simply be an illusion in our brains, if we view it as such then we can lucid dream in the real world. I put this in here because I wasn't sure what forum to put it in and I wanted to see if people thought it would be possible to make the world into a dream that you can alter at will. Opinions?

Greetings Ethereal Sight,
I've moved the topic here as it is best served here...
The Astral Plane is a very 'plastic' environment. Your thoughts, if strong enough, will start to take shape, surrounding you. They are by no means permanent...yet. Archtypal thoughtforms and an actual reflection of the everyday world (the physical) is what is usually see n there. The 'destruction' that you might be refering to (I'm not sure) is either the loss of control over your environs or your disinterest, or the result of strong feelings of destruction brought about by any number of mental states...(ie nightmares, etc.) The Astral is comprised of a number of different levels. There is the (to be rather general) Lower, Middle and Upper Astral. All of this is based on a variety of belief systems... You will have the close reflection of the Earth as we see it or the Middle world. Here you will find an abundant host of things/denizens...some that populate from what we call fairy-stories/legends, etc. Superimpose on this the 3 levels I mentioned earlier. The Lower Astral is where we find the cast-off thoughtforms of bad/good habits, strong emotional happenings and generalized 'trash'. The Middle Astral has in it things that are more permanent in nature, things formed by the physical reflection and archtypal constructs. The Upper Astral has within its boundaries all that is closer to higher 'spiritual' concepts, etc. I've totally mangled this but the flavor is still there. On top of all of that is the personal astral bubble that surrounds everything with conciousness. (Don't beat me up on this Membership! There are MANY ideas about this, I'm generalizing...uck!) When we first learn to conciously adventure forth into the Astral/Mental realms we find that we tend to anthropomorphize ourselves into this new medium. Until you 'powers' of concentration improve, this image has a remarkable tendency to 'unravel' when we lose attention on it. You can actually watch your hands/feet vanish! You aren't really losing them but your mind is off thinking about something else... As I stated earlier, the Astral is relatively plastic...it assumes the shapes impressed upon it. Which may be the reason that in some Eastern thought that this is all an illusion. There are some very fine dissertations/teachings about this in a number of Eastern philosophy texts. I've read some very heavy things in Buddhistic writings...I still don't quite 'get it' but I'm working around to it! The short lesson in Astral layout is necessary to show you how much farther than 3-D our existance is! It is also stated in many Hermetic writings - That which is above, is also below....or close variation. Side note completed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

it works here too, it just takes longer and requires more focus, as you would expect with something made of hardened energy like the physical world is - nice anology to plastic bym! - this world is more like plastic than the easily-shaped liquidy plasticity of the astral - here you have to heat it up to melt it before you can reshape it then make sure it cools in the right shape - molding our future is an appropriate statement

Yes and no. İ personally feel that its incredibly vain and childish to think that as individuals we have any form of true influence or hegemony within the world. Rather we are merely catalysts for a reaction far far grander and older than most of what we could possibly perceive. That said this occurs on a day to day basis. A woman curses somebody who cuts her in lıne may cause the man to be late for work. As a result the man loses his job in five weeks do to a job cut. The man is incapable of supporting his family and the children take to for example drink.

This is not special. The idea of somebody being more powerful is akin to the notion that an individual who is heavier than another is stronger than another. That said some people are able to get what they want better and eighty percent of the time they use what modern man calls tact. For me İ have grown to minimize the usage of constructs and other crowd control methods simply because its using a cannon to kill a dıllemna of a problem. Frankly İ feel that people should learn to cope with their lıves before actually attemptıng to blindly change variables that we are incapable of handlıng because of our mortal limıts.

pppppft!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shit-3.gif)

why o why do i even bother

This post has been edited by esoterica: Apr 5 2010, 11:08 AM

I've learned how to make continuous constructs - my house has a haunting which, due to my projective empathy in no small part I should think, has violent spikes and attacks me. Therefore, I learned how to shield myself from it. Now obviously, since I, as a massively overscheduled teenager, have to do work for clubs, school, my band and my personal interests, cannot constantly focus on shielding myself, I had to learn methods of keeping it running for days at a time until I get time to focus on it and buff it back up. I'm pretty easily able to keep things going without focusing on them.


I don't understand at all where this post came from, it wasn't really relevant at all to my post or anyone else's... That aside, I do believe it's possible to be "better" at changing things than someone else. If you consider all possible avenues of action and select the one that's most likely to get you where you want, one way or another. It's not a matter of inherent supremacy, it's just a matter of trial and error, practice and testing. I know you in real life, and despite how friendly you are you have to admit you manipulate people and screw with their heads for kicks sometimes. I mean no offense, I'm just telling an honest truth that many people we know would agree with. Some of us have a singular talent for manipulation of people and the world, whether you're born with it or you learn it. Also, I don't understand the "cannon to kill a dilemma of a problem," thing. What is this? Also, I would ask you to avoid speaking for other people - it bothers me, and I'm sure other people. "Mortal limits" do not exist to me - that is they exist, but you don't have to be bound by them.

This post seems more focused around "the butterfly effect" than what I was really talking about.

I agree with this opinion to a degree. But I feel the drawback of this is, once you begin to control the world oneself, it becomes a perpetual habit and instead of learning to cope with negative elements in one's life, it instead encourages individuals to only strengthen their grip upon others. Examples of this are abound in many non-metaphysical instances and plenty metaphysical ones too.



To gently riposte this point, your own focus in hypnotism and your own social behavior seems to reflect upon mine too. I have no personal qualms with that too, as everybody desires things to swing in their outcome naturally, but I can't say I am particularly alone in this specific instance.



The way you phrased your initial post sounded as if you expressed interest in making your dream world an impression on the present, shared reality. I generally feel that would be like painting an entire wall red to match ketchup stain. If the metaphor was completely confusing tell me to elaborate. I'm running on 3 hours of sleep.


I would venture to say that I am pointing an general notion that seems to be a generally logical conclusion after living. The desire for power can yes, be infinite, but the time we have in our bodies are limited. That said, the focus and natural limits of a human within a human body generally correlate to the lifespan of the individual body. Following your logic, if your brain was going full power 24x7 till the day you died, you are still constrained by limits.



That's akin to saying "let us discuss a dish of food whilst avoiding all subjects but the taste of it." The butterfly affect is a fairly critical piece of this. Given that your original post was talking about successfully manipulating the world and have it take form as something you desire, then the results of the aim are fairly critical. If you wanted a cat, and you did successfully obtained one but it ultimately ran away, would that be of any use?

Yeah. er. I may or may not be coherent et cetera et cetera

Nothing is true; everything is permissible. Reality is what you make of it. Some may think we are already in the after life. This may be heaven. Or it could be hell. One's man's heaven may be another's hell. We can try to deduce our reality by looking at its parts, its dimentions and physical laws. But does any of that have any real meaning? Can we even grasp the whole of our reality? What if instead of an illusion, existence is so real that we cannot even recognize it in its entirity?

I think everybody's personal reality is their own. It is what they make of it. Of course we're all human and as humans we are in a biological condition that affects how we percieve and create our realities. There is plenty of over lapping too, from one person's reality to the next. To some extent existence is universal, even though we can percieve things differently as individuals. We all live on the same Earth. We all participate in some type of social life. We all have senses that allow us to discern a tree from a house. But what would our realities be like if we had developed differently? Suppose we were all naturally blind as bats. That would mean that we may be hard of seeing, but our sense of hearing would be so accute we could almost see with out ears. Or what if we not only had bat like echo lacating abilities, everything we see was infered. What would our world look like then?

As far as manifesting objects in the real world the same way we can in dreams, I think the big difference is mechanisms we can use to accomplish such feats. Within dreams and the astral planes its only a matter of thought and emotions. But here in the regular world, action is needed. I cannot will a million dollars to myself in the real world. But I can in my dreams. What I can do in the real world is say rob a bank or invest in a profitable company or inherit the money from a relative. There are many ways to skin a cat (or get a million dollars). But in the real world I have yet to meet a person who can do that through sheer thought alone.

The more real reality gets, the more restrictive its physical laws become. If we look at the universe as though it were an onion we could see its layers as different realms or dimentions. In quantum theory the basic four dimentions are height, width, depth and time. In metaphysics we can see these four dimentions as the basis for reality, but not all that is reality. We can add other realms like the etherial planes, astral planes, levels of pure thought and energy as well. The further away you get from core basis of our reality the more fluid reality becomes and the easier it is to manifest objects (or anything really) through those planes. The real trick is find a way to trancend this ristrictive reality with all its natural laws and physics. If we can exist in a state of pure thought, we can literally create our own realities and exist as Gods of our own creation.

Even if that were possible could ever totally escape reality? Or are we just finding different ways to explore the same reality that already exists right in front of our faces?

Think of reality as a veil made up of our senses, perceptions, thoughts and emotions. If we could lift this veil of reality, not unlike curtains at a play, what would we see? Would we even be able to see what is beyond our own veil of reality? Or maybe what is actuallity, as apose to what we deem "real" is so bizzare and surreal that it would simply stupify any one who tried to percieve it and understand it.

Yesyesyesyesyessss epicc post. Anyhow, to bring this up, where does our own little dream worlds and the common world we share end and start? Of course it is different for everybody, but I think there may or may not be a universal tenants for that (such as detecting constructs or not being able to comprehend societal expectations et cetera et cetera)

This post has been edited by kaboom13: Apr 7 2010, 08:48 AM

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