while connecting with the subconscious might be the key to effective magickal practice, i still seem to have a hard time understanding the picture. as in, the pieces aren't falling into place to where I can finally begin a path of spirituality. in fact, the closest thing I have to a spiritual life are my prayers and that's not from lack of trying. sometimes I wonder if for some reason, the whole subject is off limits to me and I should just drop the whole endeavor. I'm at a place right now where I don't know where I stand. anyway, in trying to understand how one "connects" with the subconscious, I discovered it's relation with meditation. which is something else that I've never really managed to get a hold of, as stupid as that might sound. some questions arose when reading of a technique that stated one should quiet the mind and listen for the "wisdom" the subconscious mind is constantly offering but is usually drowned out by the conscious minds thoughts. sitting down quietly trying to establish some kind of resonance with the mind as I never felt I accomplished in any meditation attempt, I wondered how I would even tell the difference between my own conscious thoughts and the messages of the subconscious. how could I recognize the tranquil state of the mind in meditation? what message would possibly be delivered?

I think that the best way to begin spiritual practice is to begin spiritual practice ! There is a tremendous wealth of information here on the SM site alone waiting for you - and I am sure your local bookstore has at least a few books on the occult that you might be interested in. Have a look around and see if you are interested in what some of the people here are doing !

Second, with regard to the subconscious, its very difficult to understand what exactly you mean. The term "subconscious" is (to my best understanding) a sort of umbrella term which describes a tremendous number of different processes which we are not immediately aware of. For example - breathing - we do not strain consciously to breathe ... it is an autonomic process (along with heart rate, salivation etc.) Even taking just the physical aspect of being a human, there are thousands of processes which are a part of our existence although we are not directly aware of them from moment to moment (in fact, sometimes we may never be aware of it - this is why we spend so much money in biological and medical research). With regard to the psychological aspect of the subconscious I would highly suggest examining some of the classical models of consciousness such as Freud and Jung. Pick up some philosophy books as well such as Hegel, Kant, Plato etc. Just coming to an understanding of these texts alone can bring you in touch with your psychological subconscious !

With regard to meditation, there is absolutely a method to it. Specifically what types of meditation are you doing, and what is your procedure ? What is your experience with your meditations ? I think that your questions are actually quite valuable, as many people (myself included) felt quite lost when beginning with meditation practices.

Finally, beginning a study in magick is no simple task. Prepare to be confused, frustrated, upset etc. However, be patient ... very patient. A deep study of magick will certainly bring about a greater understanding and appreciation for both the natural and the "supernatural".

666 Sirius 666

This post has been edited by sirius666: Feb 13 2011, 05:20 AM

No need to make this complicated. Google "active imagination" and "Carl Jung" for a simple, easy way of communicating with your unconscious mind (see "shamanic journey" if you want to make it complicated (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ). Remember that your unconscious is part of the greater collective unconscious; some of what you talk with will be part of the usual "you", some won't. Note: don't ever assume that any message you get is from "God" or any perfect, all-knowing entity. Some of them do not understand the physical universe at all. And always remember that you are responsible for your own life and actions.

Freud has been almost entirely discredited. I'd suggest a modern psychological textbook, although the entire field is suspect in my opinion - heading toward validity, but not there yet.

This post has been edited by Vilhjalmr: Feb 13 2011, 08:01 PM

Thank you for your replies. I've actually done a lot of researching and reading over the years. For a long time, that was my problem. I didn't engage in any real practice for the simple fact that I hadn't felt prepared enough or knowledgeable enough to actually practice the work. Eventually, I discovered the importance of experience, especially in a subject like this and that's when I really set out to accomplish some of these spiritual goals. I've been up and down SM for a long time so I've read through most of the threads available here including other forums for the perspectives of others and it has been quite helpful. Somehow though, i haven't made any progress. Some of you might know what I'm looking for even while I might not know myself and would appreciate any input in this regard. I wouldn't say I'm a beginner in 'studying' magick as I've read many, many books, articles, threads and others have been kind enough to share their own personal experiences with me. I am however a beginner in practicing magick. Perhaps I was just looking for some insight into this subject area and any suggestions you guys might have for someone in my position.

It is difficult to say really why you have not felt yourself "progress". It seems that most people who come to magickal practice expect fireworks! Here are few questions which may help you in the right direction:

1) What is it that you are expecting to discover from studying and practicing "magick" ?
2) What are your spiritual goals ?
3) What is your definition of progress ?

I would say that in my experience, the "progress" you experience is both subtle and slow. In order to advance with magick you need to be dedicated to it in a very long term way. Over time, your ideas, knowledge, and experiences become consolidated into a very pointed type of wisdom. Also, one needs to have both a theoretical and practical basis for magick as well. It is great to read about magick, and it is an entirely different thing to experience it for oneself. However - if you do begin experimenting with magick I recommend that you keep an honest and complete record of all of your experiences (to the deepest detail). "Verily, it is better to fail in the magical ceremony than to fail in writing down an accurate record of it" -Crowley. Also, start with "simple" banishings such as LBRP, LBRH, and possibly take a look at the middle pillar ritual when you are ready. Donald Michael Kraigs "Modern Magick: Eleven Practices in the High Magickal Arts" is a great place to begin working with practical magick in a very safe and grounded way (if you can get over the crazy cover art :-) )

666 Sirius 666

Priest, neither I nor any other person can determine your spiritual goals. Anyone who claims that they can is lying and trying to use you. Until you determine your goals for yourself I would not accept you as a student of magick and I suggest that you do not get involved in the field.

The goals I have in mind are not specific enough for me to be able to categorize into a single field of magick. I am searching for existence... experience beyond this physical life. When I mention 'spiritual progression', I am referring to further understanding originating from my practices that I may take with me and possibly make part of myself. A better understanding of the world, my purpose, how experiencing the things beyond this physical life I am ever so accustomed to, feels and much more.

I have a hard copy of Craig's book that I've been over many times and it's served as a fantastic introduction for me. I practiced the LBRP for a while right out of this book in fact but stopped the practice all together after a couple of weeks simply because I felt like nothing was being accomplished. I felt as though, while I might be able to practice the lbrp, I'm still missing the vital catalyst necessary for the ritual to truly flourish. What that catalyst was, I had no idea. Until someone told me of the importance in having a proper connection with the 'subconscious'.

They mentioned it as being the key really, to true magical practice. So since then I've been reading and inquiring into this area to try and understand how one goes about "unlocking their subconscious" so to speak. I feel as though this may in fact hold to be a fruitful endeavor and possibly grant me the first step in being able to truly experience what's beyond and assist me in experiencing my magickal operations the way I believe they were meant to be done. This is assuming however that I succeed in understanding and consciously integrating the subconscious. If this is truly an important aspect of practicing magick, then I shall be greater for it.

Please share more of your ideas and suggestions.

This post has been edited by Priest: Feb 15 2011, 05:45 AM

Oh boy, are you headed in the wrong direction. Existence is right here in the physical. What's "beyond" is either substrate or what you bring to it

That's often a message from the unconscious that you're on the wrong path.

No. The unconscious may be a repository of wisdom but it's NOT a guru; proper living is your job. Connection with the unconscious can bring great power to magick... after you, the conscious ego, have learned discernment. Which you learn either by understanding the experience of others or your own experience in the physical world.

Kraig's book is ceremony. Ceremony exists because it has special meaning. If you don't connect to the meaning the ceremony is valueless.

Do you really want to explore magick? That isn't the goal you gave; magick is not the same as existence. Is that goal your true goal? If so, then you need to explore all the aspects of your Self. Did you look up Jung?

Well I'm replying to your first post here. Also I'm not a psychologist or anything so take it for what it's worth but I think I can actually contribute somewhat to this question. The unconscious is so interesting and odd to reach. I of course do not know how much daily experiences actually impact the unconscious but I strongly feel the unconscious is pretty darn resilient and while it intakes a huge amount of data, it remains fairly unchanged by the unimportant info of daily life. So one way to reach your unconscious is to place yourself in emotionally charged areas. Your emotions impact your unconscious because you naturally and inherently believe your emotions and your unconscious is the sum of what you believe to be true (as well as other things but remember this is just my opinion, or view). Richard Bandler has written some great books on accessing the "higher" parts of your unconscious through simple hypnotism. I like him because he is result oriented instead of theory oriented, which may be less practical in practice.

So emotionally charged areas bypassed your normal consciousness and streams info to your unconscious, changing it. Well another way to work with the unconscious is to access it while you are still aware, but not conscious, such as when you are sleeping. Recently I have been working with dreams a huge amount and it is very odd. If you astral travel you might think that you are all prepped for dream work, or at least I did! But it is so different in many ways that really it is similar to learning a new language (sort of). I have no idea what you will get when you go about prodding your unconscious while your dreaming. I know what I get is very interesting and very odd. I think the unconscious creates temporary (I think?) consciousnesses or awarenesses to interact with. They are you, but might just be emulations of some sort. Either way, it seems as though there is a huge amount of work to be done with the unconscious and a great way to do some of that work is through dreaming.

On a final note I want to mention beliefs, because I think that a huge part of the unconscious is just a sort of sentient set of beliefs which supports your conscious awareness: you can change your unconscious by believing something. Now this is a (again my opinion) dangerous and useful concept to realize. Dangerous because if your unconscious is changeable based on what you consciously believe, then when you purposefully attempt to change you unconscious, as earlier defined as your most fundamental and unquestioned set of beliefs, then you are in effect changing either reality and/or perceived reality. So what that means is that if you believe, as I do to a huge extent, that objective reality is formed in a large part based on your unconscious beliefs, then you are creating reality. But if you are wrong about reality in some way being based off of your unconscious then you may very well be literally driving yourself insane. The catch 22 to that is if reality is NOT based on what you perceive then you might as well be insane since reality would be effectively unverifiable.

All in all, the above is just my opinion based on astral travel and dreamwork experience. So I might be wrong or right but this certainly is not armchair philosophy I'm spouting off here so take it for what it's worth and goodluck.

Tomber, switching astral travel to dream work doesn't come up much but one way to do it is to project into your own home, then look around. If there's something your unconscious wants to talk to you about you'll find a door or window that doesn't exist in your physical home. Go through it and you'll usually be in a significant dream.

Oh ha I meant switching from the general practice of astral travel to the general practice of dreamwork. Usually my house is the same astrally as it is in real life, as far as I can remember. But I'll keep an eye out for it now.

Asking for that could be difficult and dangerous, but definatly consider looking for experience 'from' beyond the physical. You might need to consider some boundaries but it depends on the nature of your practise I guess. GoodLuck!



I've been trying to unlock the power of the subconscious for ages, and will continue to do so. As already mentioned one of the things it does it manage your physical bodies homeostasis, so dream intepretation and lucid dreaming are a good way to develop one aspect of a relationship with your subconscious. Consideration to the other tasks of the subconscious might mean finding novel ways to develop tricks to use it - memory processing would likely be another candidate - something which you can exercise, again to develop patterns of interaction which are controlled by your consciousness, but this time try to step it up by considering this as helping improve your subconsicous by having more efficient mental processes. Develop it as a trusting relationship of 2 interconnected entities, like a rider and the horse - usually one directs the other, but you can learn to let the other lead if your trusting enough to let it and your relationship is mature enough so that it understands your own boundaries.

Adder, the unconscious can process much faster than the conscious but produces free association (Freud's "primary process") by itself; if you can allow the unconscious to do "thinking" with the conscious acting as a sort of "director" you'll see some amazing speed.

I definatly agree, its just about getting the two to work cooperatively. Another thought is it could be helpful to work on each physical sense as these are probably tied to the unconscious to enable emergency reactions. Vision (movement, fear response), pain and perhaps to lesser extent smell... maybe sound but not its volume else could damage the ears.