I have a really retarded question. As I stated in an earlier post I am new to goetia but not to ceremonial magick. I was wondering how much of the equipment from the Goetia is really essential to get results from this kind of evocation.

I have a circle with the holy names on it. Its not the same form and design as the one from the lesser keys however(its my own design).

I am also making a triangle of art with a skrying mirror on it. So the triangle won't be the floor variety as in the Book.

As for the bass box, sword, and everything else, I don't have them. All I have is standard Golden Dawn equipment(minus the sword).

So do you think all the trappings are essential? Would it not be successful without following it to the "T"?

And how tricky are these spirits really anyhow? Or should I ask them first if they are willing to cooperate with me right off the bat?

Greetings Eniqmius!
I recommend that you read Kinjo post on Evocation...it's comprehensive in its scope. The actual need for equipment in Goetic Evocation has been hotly debated within magic forums for years. Most magicians agree that one needn't have the full regalia suggested by the manuscripts but, rather, the understanding of what the equipment represents within the ritual(s). This is where the question breaks down.
Personally, I made my own equipment. I learned blacksmithing, weaving, dye making, sewing, etc. and crafted the necessary equipment. If your resources are such that you cannot afford/obtain the required tools, then one should learn how to manipulate astral substance to form these items. The tools are required to focus various aspects of will to perform the task. Your mind is the key here. It is again at this point when the would be novice figures that they are on easy street. Not so. It takes time to hone ones mental abilities to take on the task of evocation. ...Let alone evoking entities that may not want to be evoked! You say that you have the equipment set out by the Golden Dawn. Then you should be aware of the various meditations and rituals involved in creating the tools. It isn't just being able to visualize a sharp sword but also just what that sword represents. In physically crafting the sword one goes through the mental exercises that form the basis of understanding the sword. I know that this is long winded but I hope that I've been able to impress upon you the need to thoroughly understand your project. There are any number of shortcuts and easy paths to this endeavor.....and just as many failures. Take time to do the work/exercises in order to succeed! You will be a better magician for your efforts! Good Luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)
PS Some of the entities are relatively mild whilst others will give you a work out!
If you could just ask them to cooperate and they agree, you have already succeeded! duh.....

Theoritically, the grimoire was written for experienced magician. The tools only there as magical aids which have no value to manifest anything unless the magician knows what the tools represent. It's all first lies in the state of mind.

EDIT: lol, you beat me to it Bym (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

This post has been edited by | Kinjo: Aug 31 2005, 11:28 AM

What I also wonder, is in some books they say the magician is supposed to wear the sigil of the creature you are evoking, however in other books the sigil goes in the triangle of art.

But where does this all fit in when you have the mirror version and not the floor version of the triangle of art? You cant put the sigil on the mirror at a 45 degree angle. Unless you make the sigil in flashing colors and stare at it, then look into the mirror so that the sigil is projected unto the triangle of art(mirror)..

What would be your advice?

Oh and the Temple of Astarte has an evocation correspondence course out in print, would you recomend this?

Ok.......
Its going to be one of these Q&A about Goetic Evocations?
You are a fairly intelligent person...
READ the material. YOU decided to vary the gameplan as it was written...YOU figure out your problems! (Wear the sigil...) I do not know of the Temple of Astarte...? Hence, I do not know of their correspondence course. Frankly, our Library contains all the info you should require for evocation, we will be glad to add to the lists if you'd care to share... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

EDIT: Oh....the O.T.A. I know of this offshoot. I'm not familiar with their product (video and book) of Solomonic Magic(k).

This post has been edited by bym: Aug 31 2005, 12:37 PM

How many books have you read on the topic?
How many years have you been practicing magic?
If the answer is less then 3 for either, go home.

If however, the answer is more then 3, I recommend some more study and work at magic. The tools, well some at least do help, like a sword. Have you decided which appraoch you are going to take to evocation? There are several ways to go about it.
The TOA course, sure why not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Actually my online skrying class is pretty good as well <g>

Lately there has been an internet influx of complete newbies wanting to summon demons. I am going to do the demons a favor and not encourage this behavior LOL.

I think you may be jumping the gun there Athena.

I never said I wanted to do this right away. I do have an interest in evocation of goetic beings and would like to know more about it other than the sources I currently have. The question I asked was about the advise of others, however if it is such a burden to offer some simple advise to someone who is scincere then I will look for another forum that doesn't discriminate on how simple one's questions may be.

I do believe your assumptions to be a bit rude, especially coming from a "moderator".

Enigmius, peace!

It would be folly to base your journey into evocation by a petulant attitude. Athena and I (and others here) field questions ad nauseum about evocation and magic(k). I won't even pretend to speak for Athena but oft times these questions are easily answered by the querent themselves by reading through the books/passages in question. Many times we are asked for shortcuts or solutions to rituals that would be apparent if the querent merely bothered to read the material. So often newbies want the answers or end result without putting the time in. Don't skip to the final chapter! You need to study and take the time to learn about these systems in order to achieve your goal of competency with magic.
I trust that you understand the brevity and bluntness of our response to these type of questions. It would be like me asking about the string to use in pendulums...
Take heart! We opt not to spoon feed you but rather to inspire you to read more and really think about what you want and what you've read! Good Luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

My apologies for the rude reply. Could you fathom that I get asked this about daily, and 90% of folks haven't read a single book?!
Have you read a few books on the topic? Often after a good read these questions are usually answered fortunatly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
There are several different methods to doing evocation. Some use some tools, some use all the tools, and some use no tools. The practitioners of each of these systems also claim to get good results.
For evocation I do recommend steady magical work in a structured manner. This could include making the tools, or learning precice rituals. The methods in the grimoires work, as do other methods. What I recommend most is reading the grimoires in question at least 10 times over, taking notes and writing out step by step instructions.

Athena

Well you were right however.. I did answer one of my own questions the other day.

I only have two books on the subject right now with another one on the way. I tend to devour several books vary quickly, but I also re-read frequently. The funniest part is that evertime I re-read a book I find something new of interest. I imagine that happens to everyone though.
The two books I have right now are Goetia(Aleister Crowley commented), and "Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation" by Joseph C., Ph.D. Lisiewski, and the third that should be ariving shortly is "The Book of Solomon's Magick"
by Carroll Runyon.

My daily routine is the standard GD stuff. I used to do Thelemic rituals as well, but I didn't find them quite as satisfying. The results of them were kinda "iffy" and felt a bit lacking.

Its cool though, I can understand how annoying it may be to have people come in here wanting fast answers. I don't typically align to the idea of karma, but if you do then that could be another downer to giving out opinions and advice to novices who abuse it. You know what I mean?

One thing to keep in mind is that for many of these questions there is not a "right" answer. There are multiple early editions of the goetia. There are also many modern interpretations of the goetia. Sometimes a comparison between different sources can yield some answers but in some cases only experience can solve problems. You might even develop personal techniques that can aid you. Place the sigil in the triangle, visualize then stare into the mirror? Maybe combine both ideas and paint the sigil within the triangle. Perform the conjuration in english,french, latin, or crowley's more modern enochian?

Perhaps create your own in greek, aramaic, german, hindi, or pig latin?
Use incense to help with visualization or rent a fog machine?
Tastes Great or Less Filling?
You get the point.
This will sound like an extreme generalization but when you ask a question about magick the answer generally falls into I believe this......not here's the solution.

Use the texts as a guide and let success be your validation.

Your work with the thelemic rituals and your judgement of them shows you have already embraced this idea. Now go forth and multiply!

chaoscrowley.txt

This post has been edited by chaoscrowley37: Sep 1 2005, 08:47 PM

Thanks, I know it sounds retarded but I didn't know if the same rules of modern magick(Golden Dawn and Thelemic systems and AS systems) also applied to old gremoiric systems.

But I will just read read read and absorb as much as possible and then test, record the results and move on.

Half the folks will tell you that you can practically use any method, and the other half will tell you that you must stick to the grimoire or the GD system LOL.
However with daily magical work how you should do it will slowely unfold to you, which is really handy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I do have to say though, the methods in the grimoires can be done...
Personally I think the spirits must fall asleep with those long conjurations though!
I am quite glad to hear that you are serious about your practice and will be continuing to read and practice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Athena

my experince with invocation is that you need a lot of practice to master them , i have been involve in ritual magic for over twenty yrs recently i started experiments on evocation. I have been reading books on evocation for the past 15 yrs. On attemptinf the first evocation, i only get partial manifestation, i have attempted several evocation and all i get is partial manifestation and seeing the spirit in dreals afterwards. Iam yet to get full manifestation. Althogh iam still working on it. Eligos is the entity iam working on now. I f you have any q, call me at 9166311353[s][quote][code]

I personally think this is NOT a good idea at all. Treating a demon as it is property or commanding it is like adding gasoline to a already large fire. As for Triangle of the Art, cliche.

Wow I.A. . . . your post presents an impressive practice !!

couple of question....
How did you aquire your lion-skin? (online, personal contacts, safari...)

Is there any inherent dangers in working with mercury sulfide? (mad I may be . . . but a hat-maker I am not)

Could you post any pictures (other then the impressive rings in profile) of your tools . . . I'm sure I would not be alone in an interest of actual seeing handmade grimoiric tool . . . inspiration!

Thanks again.

This post has been edited by palindroem: Dec 19 2006, 07:36 AM

Greetings Imperial Art,


You make a great point ...otherwise why engage in Ceremonial Magick? Anyway, I want to second Palindroem's request for you (if willing) to post photos of some of your tools. Also, where can I find more info on the Magic Belt of Poland? I have never heard of this belt until reading your post ,and all I've scraped up is that it was stolen from the Warsaw University Archaeology Museum during WWII.

This post has been edited by Faustopheles: Dec 19 2006, 08:16 PM