Now, before I go any further, I'd like to state I'd never attempt what I'm going to ask about, so don't take it in the sense that I'm considering it, because I'm not. Now. Assuming most of the members of this forum are light-hearted people whom wouldn't do this (Smart would be more like it), but just for my curiousity, has anyone out of being desperate, or just angry, used "the lesser, and greater" curses in the goetia to spirits? If not, what're your views on this? For conversation's sake. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

-Chris.

This post has been edited by SangueDiNapoli: Oct 29 2005, 09:58 AM

The topic at hand is not a matter of being light-hearted or smart. If you work with the Goetia, you will eventually use the curses to enforce your will upon the spirits.

There will be a time when they simply will not act as you wish and you need to show the spirit who's boss.

This is not being cruel or stupid, it is enforcing the hierarchy of Master and Daemon in it's proper order.

The analogy of a supervisor at work is the perfect example.

An intelligent boss would not needlessly preface every task with "Do this or you are fired", yet if an employee was simply not following directions he would have a need to. If not the office would simply walk all over him and nothing would be accomplished.

The Spirits of the Goetia are not a Genie that simply obeys your every command. You needn't be abusive but a sense of "who's in charge" is needed.

I have used the curses when necessary and other means to enforce my will. Most people I know who have used multiple spirits on multiple instances eventually run into the fact that at some point it is a necessary part of the evocation experience.

chaoscrowley.txt

This post has been edited by chaoscrowley37: Oct 29 2005, 10:08 AM

To each his/her own. Some magicians don't find it a wise thing to do to command an entity, let alone curse one into appearing before you. Whether it's about being smart, or lighthearted, or not is for the magician to decide based on his/her beleifs, and/or experiences. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)

-Chris.

This post has been edited by SangueDiNapoli: Oct 29 2005, 10:56 AM

The whole point of the goetia is to command the spirits.

How does one get them to act if they are not compelled to be truthful or obedient?

I can just picture this invocation:
Uh..Mr. Asmoday? Sir?
If you are not too busy, do you think you could stop by my triangle?

If you have things to do, don't worry about it.
Okay, I guess you are busy, I'll try later.


Look at the wording of the initial cojurations:
You are using the Holy Names (IHVH, ADNI) to COMMAND the spirits to appear. This is the nature of the text. An evocation through commands. The entire point of the ritual is to help maximize the success of the operation, and the curses are a part of this.

Commanding an entity outside of the Goetia may be a wholly different matter. I would see no reason to curse Thoth into appearing but the evocation of a God is a seperate issue.

Well I don't know if you're just used to contradicting people, or what it is, but when it comes to personal preference, you can't, neither can anyone be all right. If I'm correct the one thing people have in common when it comes to goetic evocation os the setup basically...Other than that most magicians have their own conjurations. You can Ask the spirits in the names of yhvh adonai etc etc, if you wish. Either way this wasn't a topic to talk about how you, or anyone in general conjurs spirits, so if we can all stick to the topic it would be peachy. Mille Grazie.

Sorry if I was rude in my last post. Bad morning (IMG:style_emoticons/default/butcher.gif) . I think you understand where I was trying to go with it, though.

-Chris.

Greetings!
I don't think that ChaosCrowley37 was contradicting you...
But....I, also, have used the Curse(s) outlined in the Goetia. It was at a time when I was just starting out on a Ceremonial Magic path. Perhaps I needed to use these maledictions due to inexperience or, rather, as the entities involved were not versed with me. Ah, the lofty airs of Inflated Godhood....
It is of note though, as Mr.ChaosCrowley37 states, that the text is about 'commanding' entities. It has been the newage movement that has brought a softening of stance in regards to these issues. Hierarchal structure implies a certain kind of thinking about (in)subordination. Also, in support of this, one should read most of the Hebraic conjurations and 'grimoires' to see that this kind of dealing with entities was not considered uncommon. (Oddly similar to the Edwardian/Victorian English household...hmmm...)
Whatever way you wish to approach the subject you will occasionally cross a recalcitrant entity. The manner in which you solve this problem is yours alone to wrestle with. I've found that dealing with the Goetics can be perilous at times. They don't 'test' me very often and it is usually the ones I've never dealt with before that do. Now That....is an interesting observation! Good luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)

This post has been edited by bym: Oct 30 2005, 06:53 PM

Well, I've only dealt with the elemental kings when it comes to conjuration experience, but they didn't need to be cursed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) . I didn't think chaoscrowley was contradicting me as I said it was a bad morning, and what I meant (well, wanted) to type was that I don't know if he felt that 'I' was contradicting 'him', so, just to clear that out of the way. I have no doubt that goetic spirits, being of their nature sometimes need a little...nudge (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush2.gif) , but being only limited to the experience of only conjuring elementals, I guess you can say I wouldn't feel "in the position" to command any entity..Ah well, we'll see how all goes when it comes time to my first goetic evocation....What a story that should be don't you think? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cc_hang.gif)

-Chris

In regards to what ChaosCrowley wrote...Do NOT command a spirit and do NOT try to pretend you have power over it. Trust me, they are WAY more powerful than you are and as stated SO many times, if you command a spirit..you are ASKING for trouble. Also, If you have never SUMMONED a spirit...do not give advice out like you know what you are doing, as so many people here are doing. Which is sad. But hey, do as you like.

If I may play the Daemon's Advocate:‎

My initial views may have been misinterpreted and this ties into one of the longest ‎running and incendiary of debates within the occult community. ‎

This is the argument of whether to command and use curses for Goetic Evocation or to ‎treat entities in a respectful manner described by Demonolaters as Invocation.‎

What is important to me is that the curses are an intrinsic and pivotal point of the practice ‎of evocation as described within the 1st book of the Lemegeton. ‎

It contains a Valid and Complete tome of evocation. The Ars Goetia in discussion or use ‎is a separate and distinct system unto itself. ‎

The concepts of Demonolatry, their practitioners, and their methods of Invocation are a ‎Valid system to achieve similar goals. ‎

That said the similarities between Invocation by Demonolators and Evocation by Goetic ‎magicians should not lead to attempts to "evangelize" one another to what either group ‎feels is "The one true way". The two ideas are best left within each specific system. ‎

There is often an attempt to seek reconciliation between what are two separate systems of ‎practice. In order to do this some ideas must be subtracted or ignored from either one. ‎Ultimately, when this is done we are left with a resultant whole that is Lesser than its ‎individual parts.‎

Sadly, the occult sciences suffer from many of the same difficulties as mainstream ‎religions. The historical conflict between Catholicism and various Protestant sects ‎illustrates the idea succinctly. Is the Eucharist the "Body and Blood of Christ" become ‎physical through the process of Transubstantiation or is the bread and wine a symbolic ‎representation expressed by bread and wine? Here both of these branches of Christianity ‎seek the same end goal. ‎

Personally, I have used the curses when working with the Goetic system; I have also ‎respectfully greeted Daemons in accordance with the doctrines Demonolatry.‎

The concepts and experiences of either Invocation or Evocation are already an abstract ‎and intensely Personal experience.

It is of little use to attempt to create ‎Moral or Ethical rules which are both Concise and Universal upon such abstruse ‎interactions between a daemon and an individual. ‎

I think the problem is that two different aprotches are discussed as one. In many systems, thake for eample Wiccan Witchcraft or many Shamanistic Paths the magician and the Spirit work as a team, and the carrot metod is used, do this for me and I will do this for you, the magician is the most submissive party, the Spirit is aprotched whit the most uttermost respect and asked nicely and or offerd gifts for their help.

However in some other systems, like for example goetia one deal whit beings that are not easy to ask nicely and the magician takes on the role of the Master, comanding their obediance, he might reward a job well done, but will also punish misbehavior. Now none of theese two aproches are more right or wrong, though i can understand why some of the first chategory can be a bit shooked, to curse a Spirit is like a Christian striking a priest or peening on the altar. But for those in chategory to, it is a nessesary tool to get the work done.

Well . . I'm not sure that we were confusing those two different approaches.
There is a real approach to the Goetic spirits which clearly abandons the feudal Master/Servant approach for a less harsh, more "equitable" relationship whereby the magician deals with a spirit (goetic in this case) an a more obliging bases . . no demanding invocation or conjurations, nor spirit-chains or other curses.
As well, there are magicians that deal within a "shamanistic" approach to spirits which is truely "harsh" (for lack of better term), forcing entities to carry out some of the worst behavior on threat of destruction (often the destruction of thier "home" or object of habitation)

Either approach can be applied . . . with apparently equal "success". I think it really boils down to which the mage is personally most resonant with, and after experiementation which offer the best results. There really is not right or wrong . . . except within the soul of the mage themselves.

There is hardly ever any right or wrong in anything in my opinion. Personaly i mostly work whitin the ask nicely chategory, developing frindships or at least a good bisnis relationship whit the Spirits I work whit, but I might use other aprotches if the situation demanded it.

Just simply tell them what you want done.
Or if they dont respond offer something to them in exchange.

IMO forcing a spirit to do something against their will is generally not a good ideal.
One day they might come by and give you pay back. Like when you are on your death bed and they will be waiting for you to die so they can seek revenge.

Not according to, say, the Goetia, which is what gives us all the information about Goetiac spirits. Perhaps when approaching a spirit from another system that frowns on commanding, yes. Or so I'd think.

(Just my thoughts)
It is possiblity that the writer of Goetia deliberatly put in certain "traps" to mess up any unitiated who uses the book. Its sorta a typical LHP thing to do.
It seems alot of these ancient grimoires have things hidden in such a way that only the original wirter knows what they mean. We can only guess what they mean and ideally through trial and error decode them.

This post has been edited by Jenfucius: May 27 2009, 02:49 PM