Jesus As A God-form?, to use Jesus as god-form in the Enochian system Options

Peace be to you,
I'm still in the begining stages of learning enochian magick and it formulae. I'm just getting a handle on the pyramids and their acompanying egyption God-forms. Correct me if this isn't right; basically one is using a particular egyptian godform to command the angels (elementals?) of a specific square or pyramid yes? I'm wondering if one could use Jesus(yeshua) in place of an egyptian diety and still have the system function properly. As with most spiritual sciences, It's usually a matter of faith, whatever deity you choose to put your faith in. So.. I'm thinking why not? There is a chance that enochian spirits could be tormented by this method so I'm not so sure.
I've always thought of creating a "chritianized" form of Magick that would be more adaptable to others like myself from that background.
This would be helpful in using systems where the pantheons of pagan Gods & Godesses are being predominately used as the base.
I've already had some sucess with this "substitution of God names" with things like the Key-word, and the BRH. I will definately NOT TRY THIS with Enochian rituals until my knowledge and understanding of the system is more complete. I just wanted to hear any feedback any of you who have more experience with the system may have on this Idea of mine, or any feedback at all is welcome.

"forever experimenting"
Thanks Love & Light

This post has been edited by Lightning777: Sep 12 2007, 07:10 AM

Greetings Lightning777!
I'm curious as to why would you wish to upset the apple cart? The Enochian system was allegedly handed to Dee thru Kelley by the angel Uriel....an Archangel in service to God. The smaller pieces of the elemental tablets use/can use the Egyptian God-forms but they are also additions from later systems involvement (ie Golden Dawn). Adding the Christ-force will totally UNBALANCE the elemental forces involved! Leave wellenough alone. The system works well whether or not you are a Christian... I apologize in case this sounds like an anti-Christian rant. Use your Faith in your preparatory works. Study the various evocational methods and create an all-Christian model. BUT, please, leave established systems alone. Would you rewrite Shakespeare? Take a hard look into Gnostic writings...there are many magical texts that will flow with your Faith. I wish you well on your journey. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

The revelation to Dee included admonitions to render no worship unto Jesus, who in their opinion was not divine.

If you find this unsettling, imagine being a respectable man in the 16th century whose occult interests are already on the fringes of permissibility.

I imagine that the spirits would have similar notions about Egyptian gods too. The Round Tablet instructions clearly indicate that the primary Enochian spirits are merely translations of the traditional planetary Archangels.

At no point in Dee's journals do I find anything about the use of god-forms, despite there being several instructions on how to carry out the conjurations. John Dee was apparently a devout Christian, and if you want to work Enochian magic within that religion perhaps you could emulate his technique as it does not appear to lack piety.

Greetings Lightning777!
I'm curious as to why would you wish to upset the apple cart? The Enochian system was allegedly handed to Dee thru Kelley by the angel Uriel....an Archangel in service to God. The smaller pieces of the elemental tablets use/can use the Egyptian God-forms but they are also additions from later systems involvement (ie Golden Dawn). Adding the Christ-force will totally UNBALANCE the elemental forces involved! Leave wellenough alone. The system works well whether or not you are a Christian... I apologize in case this sounds like an anti-Christian rant. Use your Faith in your preparatory works. Study the various evocational methods and create an all-Christian model. BUT, please, leave established systems alone. Would you rewrite Shakespeare? Take a hard look into Gnostic writings...there are many magical texts that will flow with your Faith. I wish you well on your journey. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Greetings, I welcome your input. I did't plan on re-writting the system: I've read the original Dee/Kelly texts and I agree they didn't or at least tried not to step outside the confines of their belief system (being burned at the stake is a pretty good incentive).
I was more focused on the GD system of where they use mostly all Egyptian Gods in their system. Specifically on the pyramids where everything I've read uses the Egyptian pantheon exclusively. When I say I'm a Christian I want to say that I am a follower of yeshua himself and his basic teachings right from thew horses mouth so to speak, and I don't follow any organized religion as my experiences with them has left a lot to be desired; Do as I say not as I do would be a good desciption. Trying to build something out of Dee's original writtings would be a task indeed! You mention "use/can use Egyptian God-forms" do you know of any writtings available that explain the use pyramids without the Egyptian God Forms? Thanks again for your input.

Greetings!
As Imperial Arts had pointed out the original version didn't use the Egyptian godforms. Try the new Skinner book on the Enochian system. I've found it to be quite good! You may also Google around to find the original Sloane manuscripts to work from. Much to the disgust of some practioners here, I also like the Schuellers series of books. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
The pyramid use stems from the GD (and others). They found it convenient to adapt the Egyptian form to the kerubic squares. I'm not certain that the Aurum Solis people have done that as well. I'm a purist, prefering to deal directly with the squares. The Tablet of Union has made up the 'spiritual' aspect of the system. By adding the Christ force to the squares themselves will totally unbalance the forces involved. Redundancy on my part won't help. Do as you will, you will find out.

The revelation to Dee included admonitions to render no worship unto Jesus, who in their opinion was not divine.

If you find this unsettling, imagine being a respectable man in the 16th century whose occult interests are already on the fringes of permissibility.

I imagine that the spirits would have similar notions about Egyptian gods too. The Round Tablet instructions clearly indicate that the primary Enochian spirits are merely translations of the traditional planetary Archangels.

At no point in Dee's journals do I find anything about the use of god-forms, despite there being several instructions on how to carry out the conjurations. John Dee was apparently a devout Christian, and if you want to work Enochian magic within that religion perhaps you could emulate his technique as it does not appear to lack piety.

Greetings Imperial Arts,
Thanks for your reply on this,You meant "in the spirits opinion jesus was not devine"? I couldn't find anything on the use of God-Forms Egyptian or other & the pyramids in any of the Dee Texts, So is that an addition of the Golden Dawn?
Most of what I've gathered outside GD texts is from Ben Rowe, especially about the pyramids,sphinxes of power ect.
As I stated I'm not bound to ANY RELIGION I just have a few things I can't do, and bowing to other Gods is one of the them.That in essence is what stopped me from joining A GD temple. As Bym said their was a lot in Gnostic texts on this which helped to inspire my "expermentation" thus far. It's worked great with evocations and other basic rituals, but then again I work with Angels of God almost exclusvely. I always joke and say "It took my whole life to get the Demonic entities out of my life, why in the Hell would I want to call them back LOL" I do understand that the Demons can give you things that Angels elect will not- If it's not in line with Gods will for you.
Thanks again I'm just trying to make it workable with my own belief system. I always hear people joking about how many rules God(YHVH) has in the bible, including the ten commandments, But it's also written that Yeshua (Jesus) said; If you Love the Lord your god with your whole heart, and do unto others as you would have done unto you , If you keep these two things your keeping ALL the rest. So thiese two are my guidline in life. Thank you very much as I don't want to sound preachy myself ha ha Lightning

Considering that the Enochian system is based on original scryings into the eye of Texcatlipoca (the Aztec "devil"), I am often tempted to think of the whole thing as a remnant of early Central American occultism.

It is not in direct parallel to any actual Aztec beliefs or practices, but there are a few similarities. The floor cloth is red (blood?), flat square plates are used with complex interlocking hieroglyphs. A tablet is worn on the chest, and a ring, but no rods or swords are used. the Sigillum Dei Ameth looks suspiciously like an Aztec calendar. The system is foucsed on acquiring minerals, transporting them, and refining them into medicines... the Aztec civilization used no wheels. Granted the interpretations given by Dee favor his parent culture, but I think it is possible that he discovered an obscure secret from a dead tradition.

Anything remotely similar to Egyptian lore included in Enochian is post-Golden Dawn. Some of it is fairly creative. I have wondered whether or not the elemental and astrological attributions of the Golden Dawn (and those of Donald Tyson and Gerald Schueler) are actually all that comparable to the way Dee understood the tablets. For example, Dee attributes the powers described above to the spirits, and I am at a loss to find a strong relationship in Dee's work between the tablets and the elementals. The elemental division is, in modern practice, taken for granted.

Also, in the list of 91 governors, their sigils map out nations of the world according to a chart that does not well-match the actual globe, and these constitute the Aethyrs. In modern use the Aethyrs are viewed in a sequential or progressive system of spiritual import.

Greetings Imperial Arts!
I'm very excited by your last post concerning the Aztec angle of the Dee scryings! Would you be able to direct me to your source? I'm very interested in various scrying methods and their efficaciousness. I don't wish to hijack the topic at hand, so would you PM me with the info?

From what I can garner, the major occult lodges used the Egyptian godforms in their works due to Egypt being front and center in the worldnews at the time (all those blasted mummies. They used to use them as fuel in the train system!)... They even evolved an Enochian Chess game that utilized the godforms. I think that the nineteenth century did more to obfiscate the existing/known systems of magic than it did them good. Nothing quite like bored Englishmen on a rainy day and a couple of pipes of opium...*sigh*

Considering that the Enochian system is based on original scryings into the eye of Texcatlipoca (the Aztec "devil"), I am often tempted to think of the whole thing as a remnant of early Central American occultism.

It is not in direct parallel to any actual Aztec beliefs or practices, but there are a few similarities. The floor cloth is red (blood?), flat square plates are used with complex interlocking hieroglyphs. A tablet is worn on the chest, and a ring, but no rods or swords are used. the Sigillum Dei Ameth looks suspiciously like an Aztec calendar. The system is foucsed on acquiring minerals, transporting them, and refining them into medicines... the Aztec civilization used no wheels. Granted the interpretations given by Dee favor his parent culture, but I think it is possible that he discovered an obscure secret from a dead tradition.

Anything remotely similar to Egyptian lore included in Enochian is post-Golden Dawn. Some of it is fairly creative. I have wondered whether or not the elemental and astrological attributions of the Golden Dawn (and those of Donald Tyson and Gerald Schueler) are actually all that comparable to the way Dee understood the tablets. For example, Dee attributes the powers described above to the spirits, and I am at a loss to find a strong relationship in Dee's work between the tablets and the elementals. The elemental division is, in modern practice, taken for granted.

Also, in the list of 91 governors, their sigils map out nations of the world according to a chart that does not well-match the actual globe, and these constitute the Aethyrs. In modern use the Aethyrs are viewed in a sequential or progressive system of spiritual import.

Thank you so much for that information! That really helps to peal back some of the layers and reveal the root sources.
Forgive my inexperience, as I'm a solo practitioner( still pretty green) and don't really have anyone I can bounce some of my "wild ideas" off of lol. I always wondered what happened to the spirits and their systems like the Aztecs for example after their civilizations became extinct. Atlantis would be another for we know that those Gods and intelligences didn't die with theircivilizations. I did think about the fact that the original GD was comming into it's hieght right about the time of Carters discovery's of Tutankhamen and all that so it makes sense. I would also be interested in any readings you may recomend that involve the "Aztec connection".
Crowley too was realiy into the Egyptian theme as well. Some of what I've read states that these various Gods ect or only Archetypes anyhow, and if that's true in theory at least, you should be able to use whatever Forms of each archetype you choose to represent that particular power. I also need to clarify a statement I made in the previous post;when I said I wanted to create a christianized form of magik,I didn't mean the Enochian system in particular, i was reffering to a general system by basically writting up "substitutions" that one can apply to about anything, including the enochian if this is actually a possibillity.
Thanks again it's a real blessing have a source to assist in advancing my spiritual development outside of just reading texts.


Love and Light

Greetings!
As Imperial Arts had pointed out the original version didn't use the Egyptian godforms. Try the new Skinner book on the Enochian system. I've found it to be quite good! You may also Google around to find the original Sloane manuscripts to work from. Much to the disgust of some practioners here, I also like the Schuellers series of books. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
The pyramid use stems from the GD (and others). They found it convenient to adapt the Egyptian form to the kerubic squares. I'm not certain that the Aurum Solis people have done that as well. I'm a purist, prefering to deal directly with the squares. The Tablet of Union has made up the 'spiritual' aspect of the system. By adding the Christ force to the squares themselves will totally unbalance the forces involved. Redundancy on my part won't help. Do as you will, you will find out.

Thanks Bym,I appreciate the tips. I agree I would not want to have pissed off Enochian Angels raging through my sphere by applying a condradictory force so... I'll pass on "using Christs force" to command the squares for now. I will check out the skinner book you recomend, is it better than Tyson?? Peace and Light

This post has been edited by Lightning777: Sep 17 2007, 11:22 AM

Its been disputed if Jesus was "God" or not. One can certainly try an evocation and see what happens.

I forget which grimoire ws it that uses the name Jesus to control demons.
Anyone knows?

Its been disputed if Jesus was "God" or not. One can certainly try an evocation and see what happens.

I forget which grimoire ws it that uses the name Jesus to control demons.
Anyone knows?

Hey Jenifucious,
sorry for the wayy late response as I haven't been here in quite a while. Well I know many of the medeival texts use Yeshua's Name for protection and to control whatever, and of course the Bible has a few instances where others outside the apostles group were using his name to cast them out; ex: "when they told him they saw a stranger using his name to cast out devils and said they forbade him to do so as he wasn't one of them,
Jesus replied, "No don't forbid him... that anyone who is not against him, is for him" -it's in one of the gospels.
And I can tell you first hand I've personally cast out several demons in his name from a few people in my lifetime.
That whats leads me to believe one might be able to comamand ANY sprit by his name.
Some where else it also says " rejoice not that the spirits are subject unto thee, but rather that your names are written in the lambs book of life" or some translations have; "in heaven". ...thats what led me to the line of thinking Jesus as the ultimate God form. But as many of the far more experienced mages have sugested to me here. that the Christforce could and very well might totally anialate the forces all togther. I guess his name can ALWAYS be called upon if one were to "bite off something bigger than they could chew" as it were lol. I am sure one could NOT comamand the HOLY angels in his name to do ANYTHING contrary to his will in that persons or anothers life.
But then again the True Holy angels WILL NOT perform anything outside of Gods will for your Life.
Like winning Lotto numbers for example. Now if it were his will for you to get rich instantly..then possibly.
I think the Goetics would be more apt to perform things like that.. But they will want something in return I'm sure..
I hope this shed some light for you...Love and Light

This post has been edited by Lightning777: Jul 21 2009, 01:30 AM