Dealing with Spirits/Entities, How Human are they? Options

Greetings!
In a previous thread in the Goetic area I was having an interesting discussion with another member about the methods of evocation and we touched upon the mental arena in which we determine motives of spiritual entities to contact or interact with the magician. I may have not got all of that correctly...so I hope 'Moonburn' will respond to my wording/synopsis. I was going to reply in part to that other thread with this:
I can see where you are coming from but disagree with your delivery and motives. I'd've liked to say 'Old School' vs 'New School' but that would not give credit to either.
Most of our membership here would be dead within hours if left alone at birth, native ability(ies) notwithstanding. Two chunks of plutonium have amazing potential but without the proper tools/'exercises' they will not slam together and produce a nuclear 'explosion' or produce enough heat to boil water to turn steam turbines to produce electricity. There are a few rare, gifted individuals that can produce magic effects/phenomena at will without any schooling. If you are one of these people then you have a very marketable skill and should be feeding the masses. This is what I was refering to as being desireable. I definately, wholeheartedly disagree with your pigeonholing of elementals, angels and devic/fae beings/entities. They are not human, do not think like humans and do not mimic humans...at all. It would be like claiming that dolphins are larcenous. Does not compute. IMHO.
All too often, we humans, have a tendency to 'humanize' things....everything actually! (a failing of mine as a shaman as compared to a scientist) Anthropomorphizing is a time honored tradition! When we don't understand something or if that something 'skirts' around the outside of human experiences (everyday) we will give it a pleasant form, to make our inherent zenophobia quiescent. We do not like things that we a. don't understand, b. frighten us or, ultimately, c. are different than us. The world is filled with evidence of this! It is a universal, human trait. When I read about the casual conversations that people have with angelic beings, demonic beings, devic beings, etc. I start to have doubts....I know, too bad for me. When one claims that non human entities have similar emotional states and/or psychological states I begin to smell a rat. (Hey, that's the dead elephant caught in the wall! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) ) Everytime we interact with others we do so by going thru what I call a 'filter'. Each of us views the universe in a unique way. This 'filter' is our "Tower of Babel". Telepathy can give us a more direct approach but is, in it's self, a very rare thing. As sentient beings (I'd like to think) we often change these filters in response to various outside stimulus...giving them easier visages (or whatever) to deal with according to need.

You will note that when you deal with various entities that they don't 'speak' at you but rather communicate either by pictures, telepathy or sense pattern. How would they know how to speak Chinese or Italian? Have you ever wondered why, in many grimoires, that the magician, whilst conjuring Umpty-Squat, will demand that the entity assume a pleasant and comely appearance? Why? We relate to people or human shaped things better than something that looks like the cat yakked up a mouse or a transdimensional cubic rhomboid with fur. Sometimes this is a very good thing! There are more than a few tales of madness induced by the 'shape' of a conjured entity.

To sum up this ramble...I think that quite often people will paint softer pictures of entity interaction due to themselves dealing with themselves (or a variation thereof) or themselves dealing with an entity that has the ability to use telepathy or shapeadjustments (both spatial and spiritual). Not all demonic/angelic/devic interactions are really with those entities but rather with intricate manifestations of the human psyche. Be suspicious of entities that seem to be very human....they usually are! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fie.gif)
Now I've ranted and opinionated, I'd like to hear some feedback...? I promise to not open my mouth again unless it is to clarify a previously muddled statement of my own... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/5.gif) ...promise! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angel.gif)

Interesting points Bym. It is only natural when we human will try to humanize everything to fit into our own perception to enable us to at least accept and understand whatever we're trying to do.

If my comprehension serve he right, you shared your views about percepting the spirits and about how they are different from us, however I am curious about your views when dealing with the entity?

Being an individual who failed the psychopath test in a manner that scared his sociology teacher quite completely with the sheer glibbness of my response, I completely understand the above points (go on - you know you're dying to ask). A completely alien mindset tends to blow great big holes in other people's brains as they try to explain it in their own terms - which quite often just don't work.

That said, I am also curious about your views on dealing with various entities. Having dealt with genderless and "gendered" spirits, I can understand on some level the whole alien thing... I know it's somewhat impossible, but "Dealing with Alien Entities for Dummies" would really come in handy.

I have enjoyed your post Bym and one thing I have struggled with in relating to my dragon was my frustration in him not talking to me in a human way, you know, sitting down for a cup of tea and a nice chat.

It has been symbology all of the way and often that which I have not understood, mainly doing things like changing shape and size and even form to some extent.

Maybe he has the same problem understanding me, maybe he waits in some way for me to change form, of course, that is me humanizing him again LOL

A wise magickian told me recently that dragons see differently from us and that they see energy as it is and so I can only understand how the energies are around me by interpreting my dragons symbolic responses; I still don't fully understand it all, but am interested in hearing more on this.

I am not sure about the not mimicking humans/animals bit, my entity certainly appears to do things that look animalish and roughly represent some energies as a animal type emotion; but maybe this is my mental representation in an inner understanding of what my entity is showing me, I am not sure how it works at all, I only know that it has proved to be reliable for the most part.

I promise to not open my mouth again unless it is to clarify a previously muddled statement of my own...  ...promise! 

You may of course open your mouth, just watch out for this Bym (IMG:style_emoticons/default/butcher.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

Let me begin by saying that I agree with you. In part. I made a mistake by using the word "human" instead of "person". Let me explain: My roommate and I were discussing this a few hours back and she said something interesting. Anything that has a sense of self (however broad the concept) will act like a "person". That what we consider "human" qualities (classically) are actually fundamental characteristics of sentience itself. No, they don't have the same behaviors as us. They won't sit down and have tea with us- as Radiant Star said. But they can still have their version of pettiness and moodiness. They can still get bored and play pranks.

Yes, we have the classic tendency to anthropomorphize. But to say that they're completely alien to us is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Now, let me play the quote and respond game.

I can see where you are coming from but disagree with your delivery and motives. I'd've liked to say 'Old School' vs 'New School' but that would not give credit to either.
Most of our membership here would be dead within hours if left alone at birth, native ability(ies) notwithstanding. Two chunks of plutonium have amazing potential but without the proper tools/'exercises' they will not slam together and produce a nuclear 'explosion' or produce enough heat to boil water to turn steam turbines to produce electricity. There are a few rare, gifted individuals that can produce magic effects/phenomena at will without any schooling. If you are one of these people then you have a very marketable skill and should be feeding the masses. This is what I was refering to as being desireable.

Let me see if I can explain my approach: I'm a fanatical believer in sincerity. I believe that what entities respond to (favorably) the most is a sincere, child-like attitude. I believe that, although ritual has a very powerful effect on the mage, it's the sincerity that saves the day. Furthermore, I don't think that we should pretend that circles are anything more than declarations of boundaries. A good chunk of these entities, if provoked, could unmake the very ground we stand on. So I don't think that it's irresponsible of me to promote attitude and manners over ritual. I don't mean to belittle ritual, here. Ritual is very powerful and has its place- even in an evocation. But I don't think that it should be stressed over what I think are common sense measures (i.e.- the sincerity bit and all that jazz). Now the tricky thing with common sense is that there's no standard. I may be wrong- and I'm completely open to that possibility. Mostly because the feedback system in this art is mostly in hindsight. As in, you're looking back over your shoulder to see how much the irate Demon is gaining on you. A demon that has it's sight on.. well... your hiney. You are partially right- I concede that. But my original posting in that topic was geared toward a need to present a (what I see as a) neglected aspect of the Art. There is a lot of practical wisdom in fairy-tales.

I'm going to skip over most of the next paragraph, because I think I got it in the first part of this post.

Everytime we interact with others we do so by going thru what I call a 'filter'. Each of us views the universe in a unique way. This 'filter' is our "Tower of Babel". Telepathy can give us a more direct approach but is, in it's self, a very rare thing. As sentient beings (I'd like to think) we often change these filters in response to various outside stimulus...giving them easier visages (or whatever) to deal with according to need.

You will note that when you deal with various entities that they don't 'speak' at you but rather communicate either by pictures, telepathy or sense pattern. How would they know how to speak Chinese or Italian? Have you ever wondered why, in many grimoires, that the magician, whilst conjuring Umpty-Squat, will demand that the entity assume a pleasant and comely appearance? Why? We relate to people or human shaped things better than something that looks like the cat yakked up a mouse or a transdimensional cubic rhomboid with fur. Sometimes this is a very good thing! There are more than a few tales of madness induced by the 'shape' of a conjured entity.

Although I think that there is some aspect of "filtering" going on, I think that it's rude to put the proverbial "paper bag" over an entity's head. I actually find it interesting and stimulating to see entities in their "true form." Seeing and finding new and "alien" forms of life is partially why I communicate so much with these folks. I usually just tell them to be creative, if they feel the need to change things up a bit. This usually keeps them interested... and less likely to play pranks out of boredom. Incidentally, more "cultured" entities will speak in an audible voice. Most of the entities from the Goetia will employ this with me- and it's in English. I suspect, though, that oftentimes it's my brain interpreting feelings and impressions into language- much in the same way that we translate sound into words. It's noteworthy, though, that they have very distinct "voices." But this is neither here nor there... (just a note: I spent about five minutes laughing at the furry rhomboid picture- that was brilliant... or was it inspired?)

To sum up this ramble...I think that quite often people will paint softer pictures of entity interaction due to themselves dealing with themselves (or a variation thereof) or themselves dealing with an entity that has the ability to use telepathy or shapeadjustments (both spatial and spiritual). Not all demonic/angelic/devic interactions are really with those entities but rather with intricate manifestations of the human psyche. Be suspicious of entities that seem to be very human....they usually are!

It seems like you're trying to say that maybe reality and my perceptions don't match up. That I'm a bit delerious with fantasy. That's fair enough. I'm not quite sure what to say to that...

"I am not!!!!!!!" doesn't seem to cut it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/baby.gif)

This post has been edited by moonburn: Dec 20 2005, 12:45 PM

Let me begin by saying that I agree with you. In part. I made a mistake by using the word "human" instead of "person". Let me explain: My roommate and I were discussing this a few hours back and she said something interesting. Anything that has a sense of self (however broad the concept) will act like a "person". That what we consider "human" qualities (classically) are actually fundamental characteristics of sentience itself. No, they don't have the same behaviors as us. They won't sit down and have tea with us- as Radiant Star said. But they can still have their version of pettiness and moodiness. They can still get bored and play pranks.

Yes, we have the classic tendency to anthropomorphize. But to say that they're completely alien to us is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Now, let me play the quote and respond game.

I can see where you are coming from but disagree with your delivery and motives. I'd've liked to say 'Old School' vs 'New School' but that would not give credit to either.
Most of our membership here would be dead within hours if left alone at birth, native ability(ies) notwithstanding. Two chunks of plutonium have amazing potential but without the proper tools/'exercises' they will not slam together and produce a nuclear 'explosion' or produce enough heat to boil water to turn steam turbines to produce electricity. There are a few rare, gifted individuals that can produce magic effects/phenomena at will without any schooling. If you are one of these people then you have a very marketable skill and should be feeding the masses. This is what I was refering to as being desireable.

Let me see if I can explain my approach: I'm a fanatical believer in sincerity. I believe that what entities respond to (favorably) the most is a sincere, child-like attitude. I believe that, although ritual has a very powerful effect on the mage, it's the sincerity that saves the day. Furthermore, I don't think that we should pretend that circles are anything more than declarations of boundaries. A good chunk of these entities, if provoked, could unmake the very ground we stand on. So I don't think that it's irresponsible of me to promote attitude and manners over ritual. I don't mean to belittle ritual, here. Ritual is very powerful and has its place- even in an evocation. But I don't think that it should be stressed over what I think are common sense measures (i.e.- the sincerity bit and all that jazz). Now the tricky thing with common sense is that there's no standard. I may be wrong- and I'm completely open to that possibility. Mostly because the feedback system in this art is mostly in hindsight. As in, you're looking back over your shoulder to see how much the irate Demon is gaining on you. A demon that has it's sight on.. well... your hiney. You are partially right- I concede that. But my original posting in that topic was geared toward a need to present a (what I see as a) neglected aspect of the Art. There is a lot of practical wisdom in fairy-tales.

I'm going to skip over most of the next paragraph, because I think I got it in the first part of this post.

Everytime we interact with others we do so by going thru what I call a 'filter'. Each of us views the universe in a unique way. This 'filter' is our "Tower of Babel". Telepathy can give us a more direct approach but is, in it's self, a very rare thing. As sentient beings (I'd like to think) we often change these filters in response to various outside stimulus...giving them easier visages (or whatever) to deal with according to need.

You will note that when you deal with various entities that they don't 'speak' at you but rather communicate either by pictures, telepathy or sense pattern. How would they know how to speak Chinese or Italian? Have you ever wondered why, in many grimoires, that the magician, whilst conjuring Umpty-Squat, will demand that the entity assume a pleasant and comely appearance? Why? We relate to people or human shaped things better than something that looks like the cat yakked up a mouse or a transdimensional cubic rhomboid with fur. Sometimes this is a very good thing! There are more than a few tales of madness induced by the 'shape' of a conjured entity.

Although I think that there is some aspect of "filtering" going on, I think that it's rude to put the proverbial "paper bag" over an entity's head. I actually find it interesting and stimulating to see entities in their "true form." Seeing and finding new and "alien" forms of life is partially why I communicate so much with these folks. I usually just tell them to be creative, if they feel the need to change things up a bit. This usually keeps them interested... and less likely to play pranks out of boredom. Incidentally, more "cultured" entities will speak in an audible voice. Most of the entities from the Goetia will employ this with me- and it's in English. I suspect, though, that oftentimes it's my brain interpreting feelings and impressions into language- much in the same way that we translate sound into words. It's noteworthy, though, that they have very distinct "voices." But this is neither here nor there... (just a note: I spent about five minutes laughing at the furry rhomboid picture- that was brilliant... or was it inspired?)

To sum up this ramble...I think that quite often people will paint softer pictures of entity interaction due to themselves dealing with themselves (or a variation thereof) or themselves dealing with an entity that has the ability to use telepathy or shapeadjustments (both spatial and spiritual). Not all demonic/angelic/devic interactions are really with those entities but rather with intricate manifestations of the human psyche. Be suspicious of entities that seem to be very human....they usually are!

It seems like you're trying to say that maybe reality and my perceptions don't match up. That I'm a bit delerious with fantasy. That's fair enough. I'm not quite sure what to say to that...

"I am not!!!!!!!" doesn't seem to cut it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/baby.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif)

I have to say this was a pleasure reading.

Entities are very child like, not childish. They are old enough to know that being mature all the time gets boaring, so if you don't keep their interest they will 'prank' you. Sipping a cup of tea discussing matters may be slightly annoying to them, from what I've gathered. I also agree with what you've said on their appearences, why should we shape them into our standards? Why not let them be themselves?

If you guys keep this up you may have to go to fight club, and if it dose; (IMG:style_emoticons/default/snstgs7.gif)