Eggregore, Servitor and Gods Options

Hey everyone,

Not to long ago I had a discussion about "The meaning of Life". Suddenly it went into a totally different direction concerning entities. We started talking about Eggregores, Servitors and Gods. I've gotten an interesting idea, but I feel on a shallow level that this is a flawed idea. Still I can't let go of it so I shall explain it and see what others think of it.

First my definitions.
An Eggregore gains conciounce and "life" through a group of people. This group will focus their ideas and energies onto one concept. They will give it personality traits, behaviour, morals but not a physical appearance to relate to it.

A Servitor is created by one individual or group. The servitor is a being with a set amount of traits and morals granted by the creator(s). It also has a defined shape and appearance to which everyone can relate to it.


When starting about gods I made the difference between the Christian God/Satan as well as ancient mythological Gods/Godesses. As I see it there is the Source (the All) and from this all came to be, including us. We however created the Gods that we worship, both the positive as the negative ones. Most mythological gods were created in order to express our lack of knowledge towards nature and life itself.

In another thread on these boards I also read the question "what if i use a selfmade being as a powersource, would it work just as well as worshipping a god?".

I see it that most religious icons are eggregores. Many people over the world having the same idea of what God, Satan or the prophet Mohammed stand for and their personality traits are so the speak. But no one has an idea what they look like. People focussing on the ideals on these beings, for so many generations, would generate quite a large pool of energy and thus the Eggregore (Gods) grow over time in power. This is why a self made entity would be weaker in power and aid because it has a lot less time and energy put into it.

People, for so many centuries and with so many at once, could cause great changes in the world. What if we stopped worshipping gods and such and would focus together on the world problems instead?

Just some non-worked out ramblings...

what if i use a selfmade being as a powersource, would it work just as well as worshipping a god?

What is your purpose for wanting to make such a ‘powersource’?

Are you not connected to “the Source (the All) and from this all came to be, including us.”?

And is that Source not your absolute ‘powersource’?

It wasn't me who asked that question. Someone else on the forum has.
Which I mentioned in the post.

This post has been edited by Sabazel: Mar 1 2006, 01:13 PM

Fair enough.

I am going to step away from this convo for now - because I do not completely comprehend the purpose for such servitors and egregores as presented.

Well I've spend some more thought on it. Perhaps I can make it a bit easier to understand at this time.

Often I delve into many directions/paths of life and see many different systems talking about one topic. I'm not someone who tries to find the one-way-truism but instead try to see the underlying truth of all systems in comparison of one another.

So to with religion/myth and the godly deities presented in them. What can explain that there are so many gods and not one is the one true god? When you travel the astral realms you often hear people refer to the energies that are presenting themselves to the individual, that the individual interpetates it as said being (an angel, arch angel, god whatever). Yet they are energetic beings and nothing more, energy which the mind converts to an image that your brain can understand.

Gods are the same. There is the all, the source....but gods are just created by man. Many people over the history of time created concepts to explain natural events or psychological events which they could not understand. God, Satan and more were made this way. But how come "miracles" and "magical support" take place when you ask said being for aid? Next to that a godly deity, cept for the mythological ones, contain no physical representation. Thus many people have different physical views of what "god" or "satan" looks like, and same goes for many other archetypical beings used.

1. Energetical beings present themselves to you during invokations/evocations etc. But their form in which they show themselves to you is not their real form. It is just one you can comprehend.
2. Gods and such are nothing but pools of energy to which people over time have added their energies to by form of prayer and such. However you can utilize the energy in the pool for "miracles" to happen. (eggregores)
3. mythological godly deities are different since they often do have physical imagery that everyone automatically connects with not to mention the personality traits one such being should have. You could say an advanced Servitor to serve a collective society instead of one "mage".

I don't follow. Is this meant to be a discussion of something? It just seems more like a blog entry.

...how come "miracles" and "magical support" take place when you ask said being for aid?

Not quite a blog entry, I think these thoughts are put here for general consideration and as such I will leave the thread here for the time being.

So if anyone wants to question any part of his post, feel free and lets see if we can help Sabazel along with his thoughts to further investigation or a conclusion of some sort.

Kinjo explains what an eggregore is right here. When you think about that definition you can apply it to to gods as well. Gods are nothing more then eggregores and not the "rulers" as most people make them out to be. That is how I see it though.

The Source, which is everything and nothing. Everything around us, including us, is made from it and is connected with it...made in energetical imagery/likeness of it. Therefore we are God as much as the next person, the trees, air, bees etc etc. That which man calls Gods or Satan/Lucifer are nothing but creations that we made ourselves.

Rather difficult to put into words. But with so many people following certain beings they strengethened the imagery of it. They gave it more and more energy which also can be tapped into to use for "miracles".

As for the purpose of this thread:
1. to put my ideas down and see then "evolve"
2. getting some feed-back/in-put from other people
3. perhaps start a discussion about this viewpoint

This post has been edited by Sabazel: Mar 2 2006, 06:32 AM

Well I'll agree that gods can fit into the category of egregores. I don't really agree that they are more powerful because more people put energy into it.

It depends on what you hope to acheive. Perhaps in sheer amount of shared belief and influence they contain more "power". Because the image and the ideas connected with them, become more defined it confines them to certain ideas within society.

It would be difficult (for myself at least) to call upon Jesus to rain down wrath upon someone if I had a need to do so. A self-created deity offers flexibility since it is only shaped by your own ideas.

Outside influences have much less of an impact on a personal creation. In the Western world the egregore of Allah is taking a beating right now as YHWH probably is in Iran.

While we can attempt to avoid or rationalize these judgments they still have some affect to the shared "gods" of the world. Since my own personal servitors are unknown to the world I needn't worry about someone else influencing their representation. This adds both stability and usefulness.

For myself, although less in sheer power the lack of public energy going into a thoughtforms creation, while simultaneously defining it is an advantage.

But isn't it so that an eggregore grows stronger as you have it around for a longer period of time in which you spend a lot of time and energy in making it? And wouldn't it be logical to assume that the eggregore would grow stronger energetically if you kept spending more attention to it and such? This is why I think that the eggregore of God/Satan/Allah are more powerfull since they have been around for longer and so many people were part of it's creation and still are "feeding" it so the speak. And wouldn't it have gotten strong enough that if you "pray" to it that it can make magick work for you instead?

I do see and agree on the point of influencing the eggregore and the lack of stability.

But isn't it so that an eggregore grows stronger as you have it around for a longer period of time in which you spend a lot of time and energy in making it? And wouldn't it be logical to assume that the eggregore would grow stronger energetically if you kept spending more attention to it and such? This is why I think that the eggregore of God/Satan/Allah are more powerfull since they have been around for longer and so many people were part of it's creation and still are "feeding" it so the speak. And wouldn't it have gotten strong enough that if you "pray" to it that it can make magick work for you instead?

We have to decide on some terminology here. Typically a personally created entity is described as a servitor. The energy it is fed comes from a very small group or in my point of view one person. Eventually it grows to the point where many people are feeding it. Now it becomes an egregore. It's not perfect terminolgy but it keeps the ideas on track of whether it is being "fed" from multiple sources or an individual..

So in response to wouldn't it have gotten strong enough that if you "pray"....etc

Yes. A personal servitor and your examples of gods are both powerful enough to get things done. From a sheer point of power, since the gods you list are already established so they have an already established power base. A properly created servitor can be much more effective in terms of what you want to accomplish. Will you have to take time and energy to feed it? Yes.

Once more people are involved it will grow much faster but we aren't able to shape it's development as much.

The gods you listed are indeed powerful in terms of the sheer amount of people continually "feeding" them. They have been around longer and have more energy fed to them. But who would I pray to when I require a difficult to acquire tome? A self-created servitor can much more efficiently perform this task and work within the situation as I deem it necessary.

A nuclear bomb doesn't help me when I need to crack open a beer.

I'm still a little confused. When you ask "wouldn't it have gotten strong enough that if you 'pray' to it that it can make magick work for you instead." Are you referring to a personally created sevitor? Or an already established egregore?

In any case the answer is yes.

It's interesting to note (as an aside from the ongoing discussion) that with the Egyptian pantheon, some of the gods (Netjers) are reported to have willed themselves into being, spontaneously. They're considered creation gods from whom the other Netjers are brought into being. One of the ancient rituals performed by the Egyptians was a formulae to enable the Netjer to communicate to the priests and for the reverse to happen. Within the scope of my studies it was an interesting discovery that revealed that the Netjers couldn't necessarily communicate with each other and a 'go-between' of a human priest was required. This wasn't universally true. Brother and sister and 'family' Netjers could interact but others couldn't...perhaps due to there being from different areas or local cosmologies. A mere tidbit to digest...or not, spirit willing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
PS Anubis/Thoth/Hermes ended up rather twisted up with each other. Anubis and Hermes both being within the 'messenger' god class, Hermes, Thoth And Anubis all being held within the 'magician' class. Bloody confusing! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by bym: Mar 2 2006, 09:15 PM

Interesting discussion. I think that a servitor would probably be drained quickly if you used it as a power source. But using deities as a power source (ie. asking for aid) is a well established method.
Egregores are useful. In covens we try to maintain a stable membership so that by practicing and working together for a long time we can develop a well woven group energy. The trouble is that often someone is missing for ritual night and the weave of the egregore/group energy has to be adjusted.
I've had some fascinating discussion about the nature of deities. Some people feel that they are giant thought forms that have been fed by their worshippers and have become strong. One of my friends called it the Tinkerbell effect as in "Do you believe in fairies?" Others find this sacreligious. But deities seem to share characteristics with thought forms, but ther are also differences. Deities have definite personalities and don't obey orders for instance.
The idea that deities are dependant and created by mankind has been played with by some. I know that some of the faery trads worship the elves from Tolkien's Lord of the Ring, for instance. Another of my friends made conjecture that fictional characters such as Sherlock Holmes, Frodo Baggins, King Arthur etc., have taken on a life of their own through being read and their characters enjoyed over time. In the same discussion someone made the remark that we could create our own religion by deifying one of those famous fictional characters. Disney characters were mentioned as possibilities. We weren't very serious about the Disney thing though--- although Disneyland and Disneyworld hold possibilities as religious centres.
Later in these discusiions we hypothesized that deities probably have different origins and could be categorized. Some deities probably originated as historical personalities. Perhaps Wotan actually existed as a man, a cultural hero whose was remembered and eventually deified. Another category would be the personification, or deification of natural forces or phenomenom. The moon, sun, spring, death, birth gods and goddesses would fit this. Deities for human activities also are common. Goibniu, for instance is a smith god. There are deities of shepherds, merchants, sorcery, and many more. I'm sure that there are other categories or origns for deities, but its late at night.