The Science Of Magick Options

Can science explain magick? Can magick explain science? Or are they entirely independent ideas without any overlapping domain? Is only one real?

Ill try to answer my own question. But i would really like to hear everyone else's answer. Ill start with the easier question and move up from there. Can magick explain science? yes. When boiled down to the essentials magick is nothing more then the execution of will into a material manifestation. Sometimes this involves spirits or angels, but even in those situations some will is trying to be satisfied. You don't always need to be aware of magick in order to perform magick. A child wishing with all his/her heart for snow the next day to get off from school is practicing a simple form of chaos magick. The scientist toiling in his workshop all night trying to come up with proof that his theory works is also performing magick. A mage can conclude that all the big breakthroughs in science aren't a result of the scientific method. The scientist just willed it strong enough to make it a reality. Sometimes these breakthroughs are caused by a group of people wishing for one outcome or another. One might say the current state of science is manifested by our desires and direction.

But now for the harder question. Can science define magick and how can it if magick defines science. Well simply put science can define magick, but that in no way negates my previous statement. Chaos theory and quantum mechanics provide a good explanation of the mechanics of magick. In quantum mechanics a particle can move seemingly without an external force being applied to it. The elementary particles behave very differently then in newtonian physics. A particle completly at rest and with no external influence can leap forward suddently. A particle shot out of a gun can suddently change direction and speed without influence. Science has yet to show any mechanism acting on these particles to explain their sudden unprovoked changes. However studies using radioactive decay powered random generators show that when a person or child exerts their mental will ont hese generators we can cause them to slightly change and output the numbers the person wills them to generate. This bascially shows that these random movements of elementary particles are effected by mental will. This is where chaos theory comes into play. In chaotic system (like quantum mechanics) any small change in an earlier state can result in very large changes in future states. Another words moving a few particles around now may cause you to be a millionair in a week. Since we determined this small changes can be executed by will it would seem to be a solid explanation of magick from a scientific stand point. Although i admit there are still plenty of questions that could be answered on the matter.

So it works both ways. Magick defines science, science defines magick. It might seem contradictory, or a circular argument. You'd be right from a conventional sense. but opposites are in fact more similar then different, i would even go as far to say they are the same thing. from a thelema point of view one would say "0=2". So really i see no contradiction, just points of view. Its all reality, none of it is real, well, to be more accurate, it is only as real as you let it be.

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~~~http://www.cubicpath.org/bb - A wiki and forum for Magick, Occult, and Philosophy.~~~

Magick is the realm of causal reality not yet fully explored by our material understanding. Science is litterally knowledge, and specifically it is knowledge that is demonstrable in the material world in one way or another. Science follows a low of observation and hypothesis, which can be applied to magickal exploration as well. However, unlike Science, magick is a science of subtle observation, hypothesis, and experimentation. It is a science, to those who possess the necessary equipment for observation. The same equipment used to observe material reality, but the magician employs those tools, the senses, on the subtle reality rather than the material.

While science and magick are arguably the same, mutually capable - in the long run - of explaining one another, they function on the two sides of the same coin of reality - the gross material, and the subtle astral. Each reaches far into the other, as that division is a spectrum, not an absolute boundary.

Chaos theory, quantum causal fields, etc., are where that overlap is beginning to manifest. While both science and magick will take their respective perspectives on these new understandings, science will never call quantum vibrations magick, any more than a magick will call the astral science. This is one of the most talked about subjects amongst those that have a mind for both subjects.

peace

Chaos theory, quantum causal fields, etc., are where that overlap is beginning to manifest. While both science and magick will take their respective perspectives on these new understandings, science will never call quantum vibrations magick, any more than a magick will call the astral science. This is one of the most talked about subjects amongst those that have a mind for both subjects.

peace

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif)

I (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) Telsa

I read somewhere that occult now is science in 200 years time.



and its really seems true when you think of telepathy and telekinisis stuff etc. i would say more than 200 years.



mystick

It is misleading to ask when "science" will understand magic, since no such body exists. We can, however, approach magic in a scientific manner. My thoughts on this subject are explained in greater detail in the Skeptics and in the Students section of truthaboutmagic.com.

1. Current scientific investigations into magic involve little more than chance-gueessing games and other forms of "testing" that bear no resemblance to actual occult methods or goals. Aside from some credulous few who continue to believe in asinine "telekinesis" videos and other modern table-tippings, the vast majority of us ought to be well aware that you can't make pencils roll about by thinking hard at them... so why do "scientists" continue to run such tests?

2. Any magician can, by defining experimental procedures, make a scientific study of any occult work. If we have the grimoire, we can test it, and see whether or not it actually works. If it says you need fourteen virgin sheep, a black treasure-troll, and a lock of hair from an 80-year old Hippie, you get those things and follow the instructions to see what happens. If scientists aren't willing to follow experimental procedures and actually do the spells and ceremonies the way magicians say they're to be done, then they don't deserve credit as scientists.

3. When evaluating success, try to ascertain whether or not you actually had something remarkable occur. Magic ought to produce wonders, not just convenient coincidences. If you have a technique that appears to work, use it and find out how well it works. Don't be afraid to break your wand using it, and if nothing happens don't concoct some dramatic incident to explain how something else happened instead. just admit that it was a useless technique and move on to something else that does work. We can't look like kooks or no one will ever give us the billions in funding we will demand once we actually can do something impressive.

The bottom line is that scientists need to study and test REAL occultism, and that magicians need to use REAL scientific testing to make sure they aren't full of crap.

This post has been edited by Imperial Arts: Feb 18 2007, 10:28 PM

Yes, and yes, in this sense.

Magick is universally linked by certain core principles, regardless of what names we put on them (religious names, dogmatic terms, belief systems, non-belief systems). At some level, as aptly illustrated (albeit simplistically) by diagrams such as the Tree of Life, there are unifying paths, where only our personal level of enlightenment or comprehension -- or as a Buddhist might say, the Minds Illusion -- color the way we see them (pun intended) and the names we use.

This is no difference from "Science" in general. The same concepts have different names. What we might call the "astral" a scientist might call a theoretical dimension proven by gravity wells connecting various universes in the multiverse (whatever the term might be, I made that up -- although, per my other post, a Canadian physist recently 'proved" -- as much as science can, that the multiverse is almost a certainty). A scientist might struggle with the concept of "four" or "five" elements, unless it's properly explained to them as "constructs" or "mind forms" or "metaphors."

A lot of things can be "somewhat proven" but even science can't entirely prove anything. The theory of evolution is just that -- a theory -- albeit a very well proven theory. But evolution and science can't take away from the greater mind concept of magick, where we conceptually and creatively explain what has not yet been explained.

Many things are, in fact, proven as far as science can prove them. The multiverse, now "proven" reinforces the very ancient tree of life, and certainly the astral.

E=MC2 is as much a magick formula as a scientific one. Energy and matter are our bailiwicks. Throughout history, great alchemists and mages have theorized Einstien's theory of relativity (theory again!) -- not necessarily as a physicists formula, but definitely conceptually.

The theory of the multiverse, recently "proven" by Professor Nima Arkani-Hamed (Canadian PH.D., now with Harvard, who was only 34 when he made his breakthrough!), only verifies what we've always known. Creative minds always know before research scientists can prove.

This is from the Harvard site, per Professor Arkani-Hamed:
"Our current description of the basic interactions in nature, based on the standard model of particle physics and general relativity, is in spectacular agreement with all known experiments. However, it is almost certainly fundamentally incomplete. In addition to difficulties associated with strong quantum gravitational effects at the Planck length, sensible quantum-mechanical theory of gravity, two striking facts about nature clues suggest that we are missing a big part of the picture. The extreme weakness of gravity relative to the other forces, as well as the huge size and flatness of our observable universe, require absurdly delicate adjustments of the parameters of the theory. We expect that new physical principles will be revealed to address these puzzles—the “hierarchy problem” and the "cosmological constant problem.” Fortunately, these mysteries are associated with length scales—the electroweak scale and the Hubble scale—which will be probed experimentally in the near future with particle accelerators and cosmological observations. Therefore theories which address these puzzles are likely to have experimental consequences that will be checked in the next few years.

Nima Arkani-Hamed’s research in theoretical physics is driven by attempting to address these mysteries...." (http://www.physics.harvard.edu/people/facpages/arkani-hamed.html)

MYSTERIES? Huh. Multiverse? Of coruse. Gravity? Hierarchy? Sound familiar. To me, at least in my mind, it certainly does. (I wonder of our illustrious PH.D. is also a magus?)

Back to science. Many great medical breakthroughs were developed from magicians and witches -- for example willow bark to ASA. Shamanistic healers can't be denied by science, even if they can't explain.

So part two of my theoretical answer to your question. It's also NO and NO. No, because Science always speaks in terms of "nothing is every conclusively proven." And Magicians always believe there is more to explore, more to learn. Enlightened mages and sages also understand that dogma is the death of true magickal work. Creativity and experimentation are the heart of great magick. From Dee down to Crowley and past, the great maguses were the creative scientists. This is no different in the world of science.

Quantum theories in particular are very aligned to Chaos Magick, and all magick in general. From circular time to the multiverse, to new theories on the relationships of time and gravity, it's all very much coming around to explaining what Maguses have always known. How could divination work if time was not circular? (no beginning no end.) How could Big Bang work if time was not circular? There are very rarely contradictions between the two high arts: science and magick.

Ahhh... great thread and great responses!! ..

I believe that advances in quantum physics may eventually explain why magick works. If not "explain", then in the least, it will open up the minds of some scientists to the possibility, and thus lead to more research on the subject. They've discovered that two photons created at the exact same time, from the exact same source will react to one another. If one of the photons is put through a filter and spun in a direction, the other will instantly spin in the same fashion, with no visible means of manipulation. This occurs no matter how far apart the two photons happen to be. It could be inches or a million miles. Some form of communication exists between the two... and it occurs instantly.. faster than the speed of light... which, according to Newtonian physics, is impossible. Yet it cannot be denied. How does this relate to the occult? Think of a voodoo doll, which contains the DNA of the doll's target. Who's to say that on a quantum level, similar things occur in the doll that occur with the photons? There are many such examples in the world of sub-atomic particles. Experiments have been done that prove the human mind can influence the behavior of matter. Certain particles behave differently when observed with the human eye than they do when unobserved. Even with no effort on the part of the observer.

This is one of my favorite topics to study. So many of the advances in quantum physics are proof... anyone who believes in the power of magick will read of these discoveries and get a feeling of "aha... I knew it!!" ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I think science and magic are 2 ways of explaining how nature works,
science are talking about one aspect of how things work, while magic is about another aspect,
at times they may overlap

This post has been edited by forceiswithme: Feb 24 2007, 10:31 PM