Goetic Experiment - Gremory, The evocation fails, can you hazard a guess why? Options

Hi all,

I've been working on a Goetic evocation of Gremory for some time now, following Imperial Arts' instructions (that is to say: following the instructions in the text exactly). So far, I have not had any success whatsoever and, having run out of ideas, I would like to ask for your help in identifying potential flaws or issues in either my tools or procedures (or both). I've PMed the contents of this post to Imperial Arts, but I thought it may be beneficial to post it publicly as well, on the chance that someone else may learn from my mistakes.

Here, then, is my setup.



Tools

Robe - white linen, self-made; the hat is made from the same material with a pointy top and sides coming over the ears

No belt (I have yet to acquire the lion skin necessary)

A silver disk with the pentagram of Solomon inscribed on one side around the neck

A copper disk with the pentagram of Solomon inscribed on one side and the seal of Gremory on the other

A hexagram of Solomon made from calf skin with the figure burnt into it; covered by a piece of linen cloth and attached to the skirt of the robe by a pin

A silver ring with three names inscribed on it

Hyssop oil - proper, 100% pure oil, purchased from a friend who mixes her own

Sword - an cast iron sword

Hazel wand - just that, a hazel wand

An incense burner with a charcoal and benzoin incense

A mix of sulphur + asafetida in a container - though I admit, I never have used this stuff

Chains - set of chains to suspend the stinky mixture and seal above a flame on a sword blade

Circle - 9 feet in diameter, fashioned after the diagram in MS 2731 (using the names + sigils of planets); names are in English (as per two of the MS's and to keep consistent with the rest of the inscriptions, which are in English); the circle is drawn on a large piece of canvas; the four candle 'holders' (pentagrams) are on separate squares of canvas positioned around the circle

Triangle - 3 feet on each side, 2 feet away from the circle in the East; names as in MS; circle in the middle unshaded/uncolored


Procedure

-Working on the even days of the waxing moon (e.g. today - July 16, 2007 - being the 2nd day of the moon)

-Working shortly after sunrise (because I'm dealing with a duke here)

-Begin by washing my face and hands (while reciting the Psalm) and applying Hyssop oil to eyes (closed! :-) , eyebrows, and temples (the stuff burns, but no permanent damage...I hope)

-Next, I put on the robe, then pentacles (silver and copper), then ring, then hat, all the while reciting the proper passage ("I cloath myself...")

-Then, I light the four candles and step into the circle

-Kneeling, I recite the prayers from book 5

-At the completion of the above, I begin by reading the first Conjuration as per MS 3825

-The above step is repeated several times and if nothing happens, I go on to 2nd Conjuration, then Constraint, then Invocation of King (Amaymon, in this case), then repeat Conjuration 1+2+Constraint, then Curse of Chains

-if all of the above fails to produce any noticeable results whatsoever, this is where I stop, read a slightly modified version of 'License to Depart' and finish

I presume (perhaps incorrectly) that if my actions up to the point of Conjuration of Fire yielded in no result, there is little point to stinking up the place with the fire and sulfur.


And that's that. During this whole procedure there is nothing at all that happens. There are no sounds, temperature changes, light changes, etc. I presume that lack of *any* results indicates a crucial flaw in the operation, for that would be the case in any other scientific experiment.


Any ideas/thoughts/comments?


Many thanks,

-Theodor

This post has been edited by Theodor Voland: Jul 16 2007, 03:32 PM

Hi all,

I've been working on a Goetic evocation of Gremory for some time now, following Imperial Arts' instructions (that is to say: following the instructions in the text exactly). So far, I have not had any success whatsoever and, having run out of ideas, I would like to ask for your help in identifying potential flaws or issues in either my tools or procedures (or both). I've PMed the contents of this post to Imperial Arts, but I thought it may be beneficial to post it publicly as well, on the chance that someone else may learn from my mistakes.

Here, then, is my setup.
Tools

Robe - white linen, self-made; the hat is made from the same material with a pointy top and sides coming over the ears

No belt (I have yet to acquire the lion skin necessary)

A silver disk with the pentagram of Solomon inscribed on one side around the neck

A copper disk with the pentagram of Solomon inscribed on one side and the seal of Gremory on the other

A hexagram of Solomon made from calf skin with the figure burnt into it; covered by a piece of linen cloth and attached to the skirt of the robe by a pin

A silver ring with three names inscribed on it

Hyssop oil - proper, 100% pure oil, purchased from a friend who mixes her own

Sword - an cast iron sword

Hazel wand - just that, a hazel wand

An incense burner with a charcoal and benzoin incense

A mix of sulphur + asafetida in a container - though I admit, I never have used this stuff

Chains - set of chains to suspend the stinky mixture and seal above a flame on a sword blade

Circle - 9 feet in diameter, fashioned after the diagram in MS 2731 (using the names + sigils of planets); names are in English (as per two of the MS's and to keep consistent with the rest of the inscriptions, which are in English); the circle is drawn on a large piece of canvas; the four candle 'holders' (pentagrams) are on separate squares of canvas positioned around the circle

Triangle - 3 feet on each side, 2 feet away from the circle in the East; names as in MS; circle in the middle unshaded/uncolored
Procedure

-Working on the even days of the waxing moon (e.g. today - July 16, 2007 - being the 2nd day of the moon)

-Working shortly after sunrise (because I'm dealing with a duke here)

-Begin by washing my face and hands (while reciting the Psalm) and applying Hyssop oil to eyes (closed! :-) , eyebrows, and temples (the stuff burns, but no permanent damage...I hope)

-Next, I put on the robe, then pentacles (silver and copper), then ring, then hat, all the while reciting the proper passage ("I cloath myself...")

-Then, I light the four candles and step into the circle

-Kneeling, I recite the prayers from book 5

-At the completion of the above, I begin by reading the first Conjuration as per MS 3825

-The above step is repeated several times and if nothing happens, I go on to 2nd Conjuration, then Constraint, then Invocation of King (Amaymon, in this case), then repeat Conjuration 1+2+Constraint, then Curse of Chains

-if all of the above fails to produce any noticeable results whatsoever, this is where I stop, read a slightly modified version of 'License to Depart' and finish

I presume (perhaps incorrectly) that if my actions up to the point of Conjuration of Fire yielded in no result, there is little point to stinking up the place with the fire and sulfur.
And that's that. During this whole procedure there is nothing at all that happens. There are no sounds, temperature changes, light changes, etc. I presume that lack of *any* results indicates a crucial flaw in the operation, for that would be the case in any other scientific experiment.
Any ideas/thoughts/comments?
Many thanks,

-Theodor

Hi Theodor, you must be severely disappointed having gone through all that preparation. I myself have recently finished all the prep work, apart from the belt, although I have a big gold lion's head belt buckle to symbolise it until I can lay my hands on the real thing. A couple of questions, did you go through the nine days of prep prior to the evocation? Are the candles wthin the outer pentagrams inscribed as per key? I'm guessing all the consecrations of the tools were done as per key?

I'm preparing for my second evocation at the end of july. My first was an impromptu one a while back. I didn't have any of the tools apart from the sigil, circle and triangle. Although I didn't get a full manifestation, I did see something but not in the triangle and a felt a breeze at my back, for a good 15 minutes or so. It was this that prompted me to do all the necessary work for apparent physical manifestation.

I'm sure not having a particular piece of equipment or missing something in the prep work might influence the results but I'm puzzled that you feel you got no results at all.

I can understand why you don't want to stink the place out, but according to the the key the practitioner follows with the conjuration of the fire, and then the greater curse if the spirit doesn't show up. These I believe are all steps of the key that need to followed as they are written just as any of the other steps are. Just my opinion.

Loki

Hi loki,

Thank you for your reply. My comments are below.

A couple of questions, did you go through the nine days of prep prior to the evocation?

Are the candles wthin the outer pentagrams inscribed as per key?

I'm guessing all the consecrations of the tools were done as per key?

No. Goetia has no such instructions. I'm guessing you are confusing the Key of Solomon (sometimes known as Greater Key of Solomon) with Lesser Key of Solomon. The two works are different and there is no indication that instructions for one would apply to the other. All the necessary tools and procedures for Goetia are described in book 1 of Lesser Key of Solomon (Lemegeton).

I'm preparing for my second evocation at the end of july. My first was an impromptu one a while back. I didn't have any of the tools apart from the sigil, circle and triangle. Although I didn't get a full manifestation, I did see something but not in the triangle and a felt a breeze at my back, for a good 15 minutes or so. It was this that prompted me to do all the necessary work for apparent physical manifestation.

That does sound promising. I'd like to know how it goes for you.

I'm sure not having a particular piece of equipment or missing something in the prep work might influence the results but I'm puzzled that you feel you got no results at all.

Yes, that is how I felt. At 5 AM in the morning here it is surprisingly quiet - little to no outside distractions at all. I kept the windows closed and the blinds down so that the environment was well isolated. Throughout the experiment, there were no detectable physical changes whatsoever. So, there were no natural events (e.g. wind) that could have been attributed to a presence/manifestation.

I can understand why you don't want to stink the place out, but according to the the key the practitioner follows with the conjuration of the fire, and then the greater curse if the spirit doesn't show up. These I believe are all steps of the key that need to followed as they are written just as any of the other steps are. Just my opinion.

You are probably correct and I will do so on my next attempt.

Thanks,

-T.V.

Theodor, your obviously right about the greater and lesser keys, my view having read both, I have the crowley edition, is the robe, hat, sword, shoes,belt etc are the same for both these texts, and I have used the texts from the greater key to construct and consecrate them. The only difference is the construction of the circle, in my opinion, thats they way I've worked on it. Imperial Arts will know more though. Good luck for your next evocation.

Loki

Quick follow-up for those who are interested. I performed the evocation of Gremory again this morning (July 18, 2007) as it is the 4th day of the moon. I made the address to all 4 kings instead of just Amaimon, as per Imperial Arts' suggestion. Likewise, I proceeded all the way through all the conjurations (including curses), concluding with placing the paper version of the seal together with the stinky mixture into a makeshift box (made of aluminium) and sticking that into coals. My apartment smells quite thoroughly of sulfur now, but other than that no other results were produced. That is to say, during and after the evocation everything remained quiet, the room stayed at the same temperature, and so on. In short: failure.

Consequently, I'm still looking for suggestions/input on my method or tools in hope of figuring out the cause of the problems.


Thank you,

-T.V.

TV,

Do you place a censer in the triangle or have any kind of scrying device either there or in your circle with you? Not knowing the precise instructions in that manuscript you are using I don't know if that is something that is recommended or not, but the Rankine and Skinner book which I mentioned in that other thread that you posted on seems to conclude that Rudd may have used both these practices simultaneously. The supposition appears to be that the spirit may have manifested in either of these two locations, and if no obvious result was detected in the triangle the magician would sit down to scry the shew-stone in the circle prior to moving on to the next phase of the operation or declaring it unsuccessful.

For my own part, I have attempted Goetia on three occasions. The third time was the charm, and in this case I altered my prior approach dramatically by placing a large mirror in the triangle, facing me, with the censer in front of it. I also made use of the conjuration of the fire, which I had previously avoided. I suspect that you are seeking after the direct physical manifestation over and above other methods of communing with the entity, but it would be interesting to know if you have any success with any of these techniques. They may not be exactly what you are after, but if they produce some kind of result then that has to be preferable to a complete failure.

Hi J*S,

My censer is inside the circle, because I would light it only in the case of spirit's appearance and not prior to (this is according to any version of Goetia text I've seen, modern variations notwithstanding). Were I to have it outside of the circle, I'd have to use a sword to pass the fire into it and I'm not sure if I have the required dexterity (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

As for a scrying device - I do not use one at this point. Previously, when I was fooling around with all sorts of variations, I did use a black mirror (the triangle was propped up at about 60 degrees from the floor and the mirror was in the center thereof). I would see random things every now and then, but without consistency and probably more as a result of my imagination rather than any actual manifestation. Likewise, the results of these evocations were haphazard, and tended to fail more often than succeed.

Now, I am aiming for proper evocation with proper manifestations and proper results. I don't mind going through a number of failed experiments to "get it right." And since a number of people have succeeded in doing so, I presume it is possible.

Regards,

-T.V.

TV,

Do you place a censer in the triangle or have any kind of scrying device either there or in your circle with you? Not knowing the precise instructions in that manuscript you are using I don't know if that is something that is recommended or not, but the Rankine and Skinner book which I mentioned in that other thread that you posted on seems to conclude that Rudd may have used both these practices simultaneously. The supposition appears to be that the spirit may have manifested in either of these two locations, and if no obvious result was detected in the triangle the magician would sit down to scry the shew-stone in the circle prior to moving on to the next phase of the operation or declaring it unsuccessful.

For my own part, I have attempted Goetia on three occasions. The third time was the charm, and in this case I altered my prior approach dramatically by placing a large mirror in the triangle, facing me, with the censer in front of it. I also made use of the conjuration of the fire, which I had previously avoided. I suspect that you are seeking after the direct physical manifestation over and above other methods of communing with the entity, but it would be interesting to know if you have any success with any of these techniques. They may not be exactly what you are after, but if they produce some kind of result then that has to be preferable to a complete failure.

One word: TRAINING. You need to train your astral senses to see and hear the spirit as well as charge the spirit's sigil. Chances are the sigil you hold is just a sigil with no link to the spirt, and if you do have enough power to link the sigil to the spirt in the ritual, then you are burning the spirit while it is doing jumping jacks and painfully screaming "I'M HERE I'M HERE!", however, you simply can't see or hear it. My advice: work toward astral projection. It's perfect training and if you can astral project, you're all but guaranteed to summon spirits.

Also, you don't need all that gear to summon one of the goetia. It's cool that you have all that, but not all of it is really necessary... ah hell you'll figure out what works for you and what doesn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

Slayden,

Since he's going by imperial arts procedure, there is no scrying involved, or astral senses. It's just good old-fashioned belief in that all the work that is being put into obtaining the equipment is enough to see and hear the spirit when the time comes.


Theodor Voland,

I know that this is not suggested by imperial arts, so you'll just have to decide for yourself if you follow my advice. I have not worked much with gremory, the one or two times I did didn't get me any results.

1. Perfume the seal fully with something that is in harmony with venus. I like to use strawberries, so if you burn them on very hot charcoal or a grill (a couple pounds is enough) and have the seal over the fumes, that should help to get her attention. For perfuming, dried strawberries work fine, but for the actual evocation use fresh strawberries. They will be better for the spirit to manifest in.

2. Next, use a pendulum to talk to her. It should swing strongly after that perfuming, and you might find that she is not willing to help you with what you need. I have found that this is very useful, especially if it turns out the spirit just doesn't like you, or your plans for it. Unless if you are a very powerful magician as it is, then chances are you won't be able to force it to do what you want. Asking her simple questions like "is this coming friday, during the hour of venus, a good time to evoke you?" can get some good answers. She might even specify a better time for the working. For example, the day and hour of mercury are good times to communicate with spirits.

3. Some self-hypnosis might be a good idea. Recording yourself reading a script with positive terms like "any time I desire I am able to see and hear spirits" while you are asleep is useful for preparing.

4. A time of purification, fasting, and prayer is very useful. Even if it's not mentioned in the MS, it's still necessary. That was a given for this type of working, so it wasn't written about (IMO).

5. Have you memorized the conjurations? You should if you haven't.

6. There might be something in the area that doesn't allow you to see the spirits. A graveyard might be the best place to do this type of working, since they are very powerful places energetically anyway. Doing a ritual on holy ground adds a lot of power.

That's all I can think of. I can't say that I really follow the instructions to the letter with the goetia. Some spirits I find enjoy other methods. Astaroth and flauros like seven day candles as a prior "charge" for their metal seals, and then a simple jar spell is all I need to obtain results.

Good luck! keep working on it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sport_boxing.gif)

Slayden,

Since he's going by imperial arts procedure, there is no scrying involved, or astral senses. It's just good old-fashioned belief in that all the work that is being put into obtaining the equipment is enough to see and hear the spirit when the time comes.

I have not worked much with gremory, the one or two times I did didn't get me any results.

Umm...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fool.gif) I mean.... they're also so close together even.....

Summoning Spirits
By Konstantinos

Page 31

Chapter Two

Magical Training

Before attempting evocations, or any other type of magical practice, one's
mental faculties must be conditioned and trained. After all, the human
mind is the most powerful implement in any occult practice, and once
the magician masters its abilities, he or she can perform any magical task with
ease. This chapter contains exercises designed to help develop magical senses
and abilities in an individual. You'll find them in the order in which they
should be performed.

What magical senses have to be developed? The most important ones are
the abilities to "see" and "hear" astrally. Mastering these faculties ensures success
in evoking spirits and communicating with them. The importance of their
development cannot be overstated.

That's a good point slayden, but what I meant is that, in the old days, and I mean a really long time ago when people believed all curses and illnesses were caused by demons, the common people believed that simply doing something like masterbating was enough to attract a succubus/incubus, or having pre-marital sex. In modern times, this is absolutely ridiculous for most of us that "know" better than that. So I think that when a magician in those old days summoned a demon following a book's instructions, actually believed (and would most likely bet his soul on it) that a demon WOULD appear and he/she could see it without using drugs or a trance state. It was that unwavering belief that allowed them to see spirits.

Nowadays, we're told we need to learn to use our astral senses to see a spirit, and that it's impossible to other wise see a spirit.

You know, when I first started practicing magic I found that I could get results easily and quickly, including seeing and sensing spirits almost as if they were physically there. One of the reasons I learned to banish in the beginning was because I saw a huge black figure walking around my room and proceed to trash a storage room I have. This was after I had cursed someone, and the next day an old man that lived near my house died of a heart attack. Nobody really knows what caused that.

After that I read that it's "impossible" to see spirits without training with the astral senses. I read that it's "impossible" for someone to call on a spirit without a huge amount of knowledge in the occult and the kabballah, etc. After I read all these "facts", I stopped seeing spirits, and getting in-your-face results. I'm only now (after a few years) getting decent results again.

See what I mean???

BELIEF! That is what we need, and I think self-hypnosis would be a useful thing to try for this kind of thing.

Hi altpath,

Thank you for your reply. I think you got the right idea of what I'm pursuing here - a strict following of the ritual, without deviations and modern adaptations.


[quote]I know that this is not suggested by imperial arts, so you'll just have to decide for yourself if you follow my advice. I have not worked much with gremory, the one or two times I did didn't get me any results. [/quote]

So, did you get results with other spirits? If so, which ones? Can you describe the results?


[quote]
1. Perfume the seal fully with something that is in harmony with venus. I like to use strawberries, so if you burn them on very hot charcoal or a grill (a couple pounds is enough) and have the seal over the fumes, that should help to get her attention. For perfuming, dried strawberries work fine, but for the actual evocation use fresh strawberries. They will be better for the spirit to manifest in.
[/quote]

Interesting idea. Why strawberries? Why not something like roses (or rose oil)?

[quote]
2. Next, use a pendulum to talk to her. It should swing strongly after that perfuming, and you might find that she is not willing to help you with what you need. I have found that this is very useful, especially if it turns out the spirit just doesn't like you, or your plans for it. Unless if you are a very powerful magician as it is, then chances are you won't be able to force it to do what you want. Asking her simple questions like "is this coming friday, during the hour of venus, a good time to evoke you?" can get some good answers. She might even specify a better time for the working. For example, the day and hour of mercury are good times to communicate with spirits.
[/quote]

This seems to go against the principles of the Goetic evocation. The magician is in the position of power and calls the spirit according to his/her desire. To ask a spirit for a good time to communicate or to resign oneself to the fact that the spirit doesn't like you or doesn't want to appear is a surrender of that power.

Nevertheless, as unorthodox as this sounds, it may be a worthwhile avenue to explore, if other options yield no results.

[quote]
3. Some self-hypnosis might be a good idea. Recording yourself reading a script with positive terms like "any time I desire I am able to see and hear spirits" while you are asleep is useful for preparing.
[/quote]

The danger here is confusing your mind into seeing things that aren't there (i.e. hallucinations). If a conjuration works, one would image it should work like a chemical reaction, where through a proper combination of ingredients, a result is obtained, whether or not one believes in it.



[quote]
4. A time of purification, fasting, and prayer is very useful. Even if it's not mentioned in the MS, it's still necessary. That was a given for this type of working, so it wasn't written about (IMO).
[/quote]

This too may be a good idea.


[quote]
5. Have you memorized the conjurations? You should if you haven't.
[/quote]

I have not, but I am in the process of doing so. I agree that I should have it committed to memory.

[quote]
6. There might be something in the area that doesn't allow you to see the spirits. A graveyard might be the best place to do this type of working, since they are very powerful places energetically anyway. Doing a ritual on holy ground adds a lot of power.
[/quote[

It is indeed possible that certain places make evocations to visible appearance easier. However, at this moment, only my dwelling allows me the guaranteed privacy and space needed for my experiments.

[quote]
Good luck! keep working on it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sport_boxing.gif)
[/quote]

I will. Thank you for your encouragement.

-Theodor

altpath,

What you say is true. It's all about belief, and our atheistic society dulls or senses to the spiritual. I know what you mean about the in-your-face results and then losing them. I had numerous prophetic dreams when I was young, then I went atheistic and stopped dreaming of the future (for the most part). Now that I've changed my beliefs, I'm starting to have prophetic and symbolic dreams again.

Hmm. I don't seem to be getting the reply notifications in my email. I didn't think of checking the thread to see if there were new posts, sorry.

So, did you get results with other spirits? If so, which ones? Can you describe the results?

Yeah I've had good results with Astaroth so far. The others I've tried either didn't deliver, or (in the case of haurus) I haven't finished the rituals yet (I do rituals for several days, sometimes lasting weeks) so I can't comment.

Interesting idea. Why strawberries? Why not something like roses (or rose oil)?

Going by The Kabbalistic Handbook (by Dr. Lisiewiski) associates strawberries (in the classical kabbalah style, pre-golden dawn). Roses are not mentioned, although I admit, astaroth seems to really love roses, red ones. Probably because of the association with modern love.

This seems to go against the principles of the Goetic evocation. The magician is in the position of power and calls the spirit according to his/her desire. To ask a spirit for a good time to communicate or to resign oneself to the fact that the spirit doesn't like you or doesn't want to appear is a surrender of that power.
Nevertheless, as unorthodox as this sounds, it may be a worthwhile avenue to explore, if other options yield no results.

I know, this is something that any big and powerful magician would be highly against. But, if no results come from your many efforts, this method starts to look pretty good after a failure, because it helps keep you optimistic. I know it helps me. I guess you just have to find the best pre-evocation method of communicating with the spirit. Not all of the goetics are nasty demons after all. Gremory in particular seems to be very nice and non-demonic, IMHO.

The danger here is confusing your mind into seeing things that aren't there (i.e. hallucinations). If a conjuration works, one would image it should work like a chemical reaction, where through a proper combination of ingredients, a result is obtained, whether or not one believes in it.

True, which is why careful wording is important, and it depends on everyones paradigm. Most people nowadays believe spirits are in your mind, so if you can see and hear them, they really are there. In that way of thinking, a person is always in contact with spirits and has access to them at any time. I don't necessarily believe that, I'm just giving that as an example.

It is indeed possible that certain places make evocations to visible appearance easier. However, at this moment, only my dwelling allows me the guaranteed privacy and space needed for my experiments.

Well I suppose my last suggestion, if you really want visible results, is that maybe you check out athenas site, an ex-mod on this site. www.enochian.org has a section in there where you can see the incenses she sells. She sells a manifestation incense for goetics, and also has a banishing incense, so I would suggest buying that too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif) She's a very nice practitioner, so just email her and ask her about the incense and how it works, shipping price, etc. I might buy some from her later on since I know that a visible appearance is needed for some spectacular results, but for now I'm fine without it.

Oh, I forgot to post about results (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Well with astaroth, I asked her to help out a friend who wanted a specific guy, and the ritual was pretty intense, with a full trance state during the whole thing. I think astaroth induced that. In the end I got attacked by her because I pushed for results faster, I didn't use a pendulum at the time, so it turned out (my friend saw her in a dream talking to her) that she didn't like the guy for her, and that she needed to look for another demon, or another guy. The guy did obsess over her though, within a couple days of the ritual. He was incredibly obsessive, like in the movie "The Craft". As soon as I gave astaroth the license to depart though, the effect stopped completely. That is just the way I work though. I don't give a license to depart until the ritual has brought about the results I want, or I am in trouble (like in that case).

I'm working with astaroth again now but with a copper seal I engraved myself. The old one was leather, which I burned to get rid of the sickness she caused in me. This time around we are working together nicely with no drain of energy, no headaches, no attacks at all that I can tell, which is a huge difference compared to the last time. This time I'm also using a silver pentagram of solomon that i made myself.

HA HA HA HA! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lightning.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif) I've never heard of working the goetia like that! LOLOL! It's a helluva story though. Magickally wrestling back and forth with a pissed off goddess! Man, the best stories about magick are about the ones that go wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/haha.gif) I certainly hope you aren't doing that any more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/face06.gif)



EDIT: Oh yeah. You summoned Astarte not Astaroth.

This post has been edited by Slayden: Jul 28 2007, 05:36 AM

Actually, I believe astaroth is a combination of the goddess and a demon. She doesn't seem to be against acting like a full blown demon when she's angry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Also, I think it depends on everyones personal universe. You may believe it's a goddess, another person may believe it's a demon, and both could very well be correct. Michael told me that she is a goddess, but at the same time a demon. So that's my truth.

EDIT: I still am doing that, and it's much safer for me now, but it took me several months to build up the knowledge, courage, and and will power to get back to working with her. Also it took a couple months to fully recover from the attack, which left me, unsurprisingly, somewhat impotent. I've got my old sex drive back though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

This post has been edited by altpath: Jul 28 2007, 01:41 PM

Astarte was a Mesopotamian goddess of fertility and sexuality, but Astaroth is a male demon that is "ugly and has bad breath." Unfortunately, many Ceremonial magicians use the names interchangably to call either. This may be what Michael meant when he told you that Astaroth was both a goddess and a demon. That, or Astarte is a demon that set itself up as a Mesopotamian goddess long ago.

Erm... doesn't it seem a little, uh, extreme to hold a goetic spirit like that...? You could offer a sacrifice of food, hair, or whatever to get on their good sides, or you can use the Vessel of Brass technique to have your arm flexed on them at all times... but having an open-ended ritual like that so the spirit can run amok in your life seems really, really... um... reckless? I have MUCH stronger terms to describe such unwise actions that I want to use...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/velho.gif)

Astarte was a Mesopotamian goddess of fertility and sexuality, but Astaroth is a male demon that is "ugly and has bad breath." Unfortunately, many Ceremonial magicians use the names interchangably to call either. This may be what Michael meant when he told you that Astaroth was both a goddess and a demon. That, or Astarte is a demon that set itself up as a Mesopotamian goddess long ago.

Yeah, my understanding of the name astaroth is that it is a word that means several different spirits, possibly a class of spirits, so I tend to think of astaroth as a primal force that works it's mojo through it's minions. Kind of like a hindu God working it's magic through it's lesser gods. I've never actually seen one spirit, a goddess or otherwise, only many different minions when working with this goetic.

but having an open-ended ritual like that so the spirit can run amok in your life seems really, really... um... reckless? I have MUCH stronger terms to describe such unwise actions that I want to use...

hahaha, I know, I know, but I try not to work too much with demons. Astaroth and flauros are the only two demons I work with right now. I try and balance my spiritual diet by working with angels as much, or more, than I do with demons.

As for the brass vessel method, I'm going to make myself a liber spiritus (but I'm still working on my angel book) that Nero described in his class lesson on books of power. It's basically the same concept, to contain the spirits in the book and force them to swear an oath on their seal to not cause me any harm. Like I said, I'll get to that maybe later on in my life if the angel book is as good as I think it will be, and hey, if it is maybe I won't have any use for demons right?




Theodor Voland,

How is everything working out for you? Any luck? Maybe you could try what some people suggest here, and try evoking every night?

Did you check out the incense's that I mentioned?

Theodor Voland,

How is everything working out for you? Any luck? Maybe you could try what some people suggest here, and try evoking every night?

Did you check out the incense's that I mentioned?

I've done a few more evocations (on the even days of the Moon) of Gremory and Dantalion. So far, I have not had any visible or audible manifestations.
I'll resume my work next month, when the moon is in the proper state for the operations.

I am not planning to evoke every night because (a) Dukes are to be evoked in the morning, and getting up at 5am every day before work to evoke for a few hours is taxing and (b) Goetia text is very specific about days and stages of the moon - so, only several days in a month are useful. I'll keep at it the 'traditional' way for a while and see where it takes me before considering the alternatives.

Thank you for your input in this thread thus far - I've been reading it with interest.

-Theodor

You know I find it very strange that you don't get any manifestation or audible signs of the spirits. I don't mean a full on arrival of the spirit, but I mean paranormal activity. I usually get that with normal spellwork, including storms, rain, lightning, electrical problems, etc. During an evocation these things are much more pronounced for me. I would think that doing it the way you do it would get a huge amount of energy going.

Maybe the problem is that you need to spend more time contemplating the ritual for a while. Spend your time (while you wait for the appropriate moon phase) meditating and like imperial arts suggests, reading the psalms or is it the book of proverbs?

I believe it was mathers who would have the seal of the spirit covered with black cloth, and as he read the conjurations, he would uncover it a little bit, more and more at each conjuration and allow the tension to build until the seal was fully uncovered and that signified the manifestation of the spirit. It was a symbolic way of showing the process (to his own mind maybe?) of bringing the spirit from invisible to visible appearance. Just a suggestion.

I suggest reading Proverbs so that a person can better decide how to use the conjurations, not to make the ceremonies more effective.

Is it Astaroth or is it Astarte?
In Biblical Hebrew, Astaroth is rendered Ayin-Shin-Tau-Resh-Tau (Genesis 14:5). I Kings 18:19 and Jeremiah 12: 2 and elsewhere give Aleph-Shin-Resh-Heh for Asherah and Asherim, which the Chumash indicates are devices used in the worship of Astarte. The spellings are different and they appear to mean different things, and I have found no reference to the worship of "Ayin-Shin-Tau-Resh-Tau" in the Hebrew scriptures. While it does not rule out the connection, it is not established from Scripture.

Asherah and Asherim are tree and trees, probably the Lebanon cedar, and many claim they were the first Christiman trees.

At any rate the manifestation of Astaroth is "an infernal beast like a dragon." Compare this to the Sirrush creature depicted on the gates of Babylon. To bestow secrets and style are the powers of Astaroth, and it could be argued that these are feminine qualities.

Imperial Arts,

Are you sure you don't happen to just be a really good manifestation medium? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I say that because Bym gets great manifestations, but he is a natural medium and seems to get good manifestation, so that's why I ask. After all I don't know many people that get full visible appearance, except maybe a writer here on the forum that was taught to use the goetia exactly like it is in the book. He was trained in india I think. Maybe africa, I don't remember.

Theodor,

You're reading the conjurations but how are you reading them? When you perform the invocation of the bornless one do you feel the invocated force? When you speak the conjurations it should feel as through your speaking with the voice of the bornless one, with complete authority. When speaking the conjurations you must give yourself to the words, you must feel as though your voice rings to the end of the universe. Are you standing there uttering the words beneath your breath? If so then you must speak loudly and clearly. Are you reading the words flatly? If so you must invest emotion and sweat into reading the conjurations. Listen to a politician giving a rousing speech, putting their entire body into saying those words, this is a good example of how to speak the conjurations.

How dark is it in the room where you perform the evocations? The only sources of light in the room should be from the candles illuminating the edge of the circle.

How much incense are you using? The two times I achieved full manifestation of decarbia, after I had finished the operation and flicked the lightswitch there was a very thick veil of smoke obscuring the ceiling.

When you make mistakes in the conjurations do you try to correct yourself? Do you find yourself faltering? If you do you mustn't let it distract you, you mustn't allow any mistakes you make in the pronunciation of the words to disrupt the flow of your speech.

You will usually see the spirit first as a black mass within the triangle (I learned that I had to make the triangle larger and larger each time I performed a evocation as this black mass would spill over and obscure the edge of the triangle until the mass was constrained) you will then see this mass testing the outer edge of the triangle, it moves like water and flows steadily around into each corner before spilling into the adjacent corner, a faint pearl-like object can be seen within this mass (I assume as I was working with decarbia that this was the seed of the star that forms the spirit's body in the description). Getting that far is fairly easy for me within 2 or 3 hours but it is immensely difficult to bring the spirit any further into manifestation, I've only succeeded in bringing a spirit any further than that twice - I do not know if this is true for the rest of the goetic spirits but decarbia's geometric body was identical in colour to when you see a bright light and close your eyes, a blurry red, you could try looking for signs of this colour during the evocation.

I've never understood folk developing their 'astral senses' in order to see or hear the evoked spirit, you can converse with it normally when you get as far as the black mass stage.

I hope you take something away from this that helps you achieve physical manifestation in your work.

Heebeejeebees,

Thank you for your post. My comments are below.

When you perform the invocation of the bornless one do you feel the invocated force? When you speak the conjurations it should feel as through your speaking with the voice of the bornless one, with complete authority.

I don't use the Bornless ritual as it is not a part of the Goetia text.

When speaking the conjurations you must give yourself to the words, you must feel as though your voice rings to the end of the universe. Are you standing there uttering the words beneath your breath? If so then you must speak loudly and clearly. Are you reading the words flatly? If so you must invest emotion and sweat into reading the conjurations. Listen to a politician giving a rousing speech, putting their entire body into saying those words, this is a good example of how to speak the conjurations.

I recite the conjurations loudly and emphatically.

How dark is it in the room where you perform the evocations? The only sources of light in the room should be from the candles illuminating the edge of the circle.

The blinds are drawn, but there is enough ambient light to be able to read/write, for example, as the evocations of Dukes (such as Gremory) are done in the morning, from sunrise till noon.

How much incense are you using?

None, until the spirit appears, as per Goetia text. Incense is burnt after the spirit makes its appearance, is addressed, and welcomed.

When you make mistakes in the conjurations do you try to correct yourself? Do you find yourself faltering? If you do you mustn't let it distract you, you mustn't allow any mistakes you make in the pronunciation of the words to disrupt the flow of your speech.

I keep the flow, as I have the text nearly committed to memory.

You will usually see the spirit first as a black mass within the triangle...

I have not yet seen this. I would consider this a very good first sign of manifestation/visible appearance.

I've never understood folk developing their 'astral senses' in order to see or hear the evoked spirit, you can converse with it normally when you get as far as the black mass stage.

Agreed, but what if I do not get as far as the black mass stage? How do I get there? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


-Theodor

Getting that far is fairly easy for me within 2 or 3 hours but it is immensely difficult to bring the spirit any further into manifestation, I've only succeeded in bringing a spirit any further than that twice - I do not know if this is true for the rest of the goetic spirits but decarbia's geometric body was identical in colour to when you see a bright light and close your eyes, a blurry red, you could try looking for signs of this colour during the evocation.

IMO, I think that this probably happens because you don't use the hyssop oil. Just a suggestion, as imperial arts says that he would only see a black mass before he started using it. After that he would see and hear them fine.

You're reading the conjurations but how are you reading them? When you perform the invocation of the bornless one do you feel the invocated force? When you speak the conjurations it should feel as through your speaking with the voice of the bornless one, with complete authority. When speaking the conjurations you must give yourself to the words, you must feel as though your voice rings to the end of the universe. Are you standing there uttering the words beneath your breath? If so then you must speak loudly and clearly. Are you reading the words flatly? If so you must invest emotion and sweat into reading the conjurations. Listen to a politician giving a rousing speech, putting their entire body into saying those words, this is a good example of how to speak the conjurations.

How dark is it in the room where you perform the evocations? The only sources of light in the room should be from the candles illuminating the edge of the circle.

How much incense are you using? The two times I achieved full manifestation of decarbia, after I had finished the operation and flicked the lightswitch there was a very thick veil of smoke obscuring the ceiling.

When you make mistakes in the conjurations do you try to correct yourself? Do you find yourself faltering? If you do you mustn't let it distract you, you mustn't allow any mistakes you make in the pronunciation of the words to disrupt the flow of your speech.

THIS is why I've avoided working with the Goetia. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/book.gif)



Too much crap to buy and/or make ... everything has to be said and done just so, lest the entity in question become angry ...

Too many chances for error. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/butcher.gif)

This post has been edited by The Sorceress: Aug 5 2007, 10:53 AM

I don't use the Bornless ritual as it is not a part of the Goetia text.
I recite the conjurations loudly and emphatically.
The blinds are drawn, but there is enough ambient light to be able to read/write, for example, as the evocations of Dukes (such as Gremory) are done in the morning, from sunrise till noon.
None, until the spirit appears, as per Goetia text. Incense is burnt after the spirit makes its appearance, is addressed, and welcomed.
I keep the flow, as I have the text nearly committed to memory.
I have not yet seen this. I would consider this a very good first sign of manifestation/visible appearance.
Agreed, but what if I do not get as far as the black mass stage? How do I get there? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
-Theodor

Couple of questions I have are: where do you place the incense holder/chafing bowl? Inside the circle, outwith it, or inside the triangle itself? I'm guessing inside the circle as you wouldn't want to step outwith it, and do you focus on the triangle as you speak the conjurations? About the "astral sight" it might be worth a go, to me that wouldn't feel right is all.

I don't have any advice other than what I previously posted, but you are already doing all that and more with no results. I'm nonplussed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Sorry if you've already mentioned this in one of your previous posts, but what other systems of evocation have you worked with prior to the goetia? Did you experience the same problem?

IMO, I think that this probably happens because you don't use the hyssop oil. Just a suggestion, as imperial arts says that he would only see a black mass before he started using it. After that he would see and hear them fine.

Thanks! Do you remember the thread title where imperial arts said that? If someone else experienced the same black mass during their work, that would prove to me at least that these systems have a very specific influence that can be replicated in different people - on another website where folk wrote about a group working they experienced the spirits completely differently to each other, and they didn't mention the black mass stage (need a better name for that).

This post has been edited by Heebeejeebees: Aug 5 2007, 12:07 PM

Thanks! Do you remember the thread title where imperial arts said that? If someone else experienced the same black mass during their work, that would prove to me at least that these systems have a very specific influence that can be replicated in different people - on another website where folk wrote about a group working they experienced the spirits completely differently to each other, and they didn't mention the black mass stage (need a better name for that).

It was either in the class lesson on goetia by imperial arts, or in the Q&A of that same class.

It was either in the class lesson on goetia by imperial arts, or in the Q&A of that same class.

I read through those topics last night and today but didn't come across that bit, bym stepped in at one point and deleted some posts, I think the point about the hyssop oil helping with getting past the inky blob stage might have been deleted. Tried a forum search too but it came up with only those two topics (the goetia class lesson and q&a) again.

I've been using water, it does say 'o lord cleanse me with hyssop' or something similar tho'.