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 Christianity And Magic: An Interpretation, An article I wrote on the topic (with references!)
Veritas
post Oct 9 2007, 06:06 PM
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Note: The following article is written in an attempt to detail how the Christian Paradigm may reasonably be married with a practice of magic. As a consequence, there will be explicit references to the Christian religion. Viewer Discretion is advised. Seriously, don't get all angry and tell me abut the "Burning Times", how Christianity ruined everything, or how you should rise above a religious upbringing in order to practice magic. I've heard it before and wasn't impressed. This is not meant to convert or change religions, merely to serve as a reference to those who ask the question "Can a Christian be a Magician?" in earnest.






Throughout the history of humankind, the same things have been labeld as the epitome of holiness or the deepest depravity of evil. Those doctrines embraced by the majority are often rejected by the minority. For centuries, Christendom has maintained an unyieling stance of the depravity of magic, commonly referred to as witchcraft or sorcery, and confused with religions as varied as Wicca and Asatru. These conceptions have been the rallying cry of generations to save the misguided souls of the lost from the claws of the daemonic. They are also incorrect, based in part of misunderstandings of translations of translations of translations. The Torah, the Books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteonomy and Numbers, originally existed in ancient or biblical Hebrew, which is no longer spoken even by Jews. The New Testament is thought to have originally existed in Aramaic, a nearly-extinct language and later translated into Greek and Latin, further translated into English. Many of these languages do not translate well between one another; cultural subcurrents are lost in translations, specificty lost. In addition, fear clouds the judgement of men, causing them to demonize that which is not demonic. The translators of the King James Version are said to have intentionally mistranslated the Hebrew word m'khaseph, meaning a worker of evil magic, to read witch, as a result of his own paranoia. Frequently, certain verses are used to support a hostile stance on magic; some of these are detailed in this Appendix. The English Translations, except as noted, are from the KJV. Latin is from the Latin Vulgate Bible. Hebrew transliterations are mostly courtesy of the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance. The purpose is to provide the verses used to condemn magic as a whole, and show they do nothing of the kind. In addition, translations provided are intended for maximum clarity, not necesarily grammatical accuracy.



Rev. 22:15

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Foris canes, et venefici, et impudici, et homicidæ, et idolis servientes, et omnis qui amat et facit mendacium.

Venefici- Poisoners. Those who murder with poison or magical means (1.)

This verse condemns those who murder, with magic, poison, or weapon. Damnable, indeed.

Rev. 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Timidis autem, et incredulis, et execratis, et homicidis, et fornicatoribus, et veneficis, et idolatris, et omnibus mendacibus, pars illorum erit in stagno ardenti igne et sulphure: quod est mors secunda.

Venefici- Poisoners. Those who murder with poison or magical means (Sulla's reign: Lex Cornellia De Sicariis Et Veneficis) (1.)

This verse condemns those who murder, with magic, poison, or weapon. Damnable, indeed.


What does the original Greek text imply?
The critical word here is "pharmakeus" pronounced <far-mak-yoos'>. It is derived from "pharmakon," which means a drug.

It is commonly believed to have two meanings:
A person who uses magical potions for to poison others.
A person who engaged in black magick to harm others -- a sorcerer.

A few commentators suggest a third meaning:
A person who goes around spreading dissention - poisoning people's minds.
Of all of the translations, the word "sorcerer" is probably the best. Unfortunately, while this term usually refers to a person who casts evil spells to harm others, it is occasionally used to refer to any spell caster, whether the intent is to harm or to heal. So the optimum translation would probably be "evil sorcerer."

Since the Wiccan Rede specifically prohibits Wiccans from harming, dominating, manipulating or controlling others, Wiccans could in no way be covered by Revelation 21:8. (2.)

Galatians 5:19-21

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Timidis autem, et incredulis, et execratis, et homicidis, et fornicatoribus, et veneficis, et idolatris, et omnibus mendacibus, pars illorum erit in stagno ardenti igne et sulphure: quod est mors secunda.

Venefici- Poisoners. Those who murder with poison or magical means (Sulla's reign: Lex Cornellia De Sicariis Et Veneficis) (1.)

This verse condemns those who murder, with magic, poison, or weapon. Damnable, indeed.


Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

Maleficos non patieris vivere.

The mal-prefix denotes malignancy; the Spanish maleficos is an adjective that means "exerting a malign influence."

The Answer Bible reads "Put to death any woman who does evil magic. (3.)

New Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live. (3.)

New World Translation: You must not preserve a sorceress alive. (3.)

This verse specifically denotes those who use magic to do evil, although I fail to understand why it should apply only to women.

Deut. 18:10-11

There shall not be found among you anyone ....that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Nec inveniatur in te qui lustret filium suum, aut filiam, ducens per ignem: aut qui ariolos sciscitetur, et observet somnia atque auguria, nec sit maleficus,
nec incantator, nec qui pythones consulat, nec divinos, aut quærat a mortuis veritatem.

The Hebrew Terms and Definitions of the above Verse:
1. yid'oni: knowers; wizards; persons who make contact with spirits who are not of God. (Some Wiccans have engaged in spiritism and have attempted to contact the dead. However, this is not necessarily an integral part of the Wiccan religion).
2. sho'el 'ov: making forbidden contact with the dead. (Ditto) .
3. qosem q'samim: predicting the future by using lots or a similar system. (Many Wiccans as well as Christians sometimes use tarot cards, runes, scrying etc. to foretell the future, but this is not an integral part of the Wiccan religion) .
4. m'onen: predicting the future by interpreting signs in nature. (Ditto) .
5. m'nachesh an enchanter (perhaps a snake charmer, because "nachash" means snake. We have never heard of Wiccan snake charmers) .
6. chover chavar: use of knot-tying to perform magic. (Wiccans sometimes engage in knot-tying, but only for positive healing magic. Again, it is a practice that some engage in, but is not an integral part of their religion).
7. m'khaseph: an evil sorcerer (as in Exodus 22:18); a person using spoken spells to harm others. (Wiccans do not engage in this activity; they are specifically prohibited from doing so by their Wiccan Rede).
8. doresh 'el hametim: a person who makes contact with the dead - probably by another method than sho'el 'ov. (Again, there are some Wiccans who engage in spiritism, but it is not necessarily an integral part of their religion). (4.)

Maleficus means generic mischief-making or evil-doing. It also commonly denotes a sorcerer. (5.) (6.)

Incantator means one who puts a spell on or bewitches. (7.)

Qui pythones consulat means a consulting spirit. The word pythones is historically used in reference to ventriliquism disguised as spirit possession by false prophets; a base meaning of sourceless is my conclusion, and that the word came to refer to spirits who may or may not been part of a circus act. (8.)

Nec divinos means those who foretell or prophesy. (9.)

Mortuis veritatem means those who seek truth from the dead. (10.)

This verse, then, condemns contacting spirits not of God; the meaning of "of God" is debateable: Since God created all that is, including all spirits, theoretically they are all "of God"
It condemns necromancy.
It condemns divination by certain methods.
It condemns enchnting another; presumablly against there will, and arguablly including hypnotism.
It condemns using magic to harm another.
It condemns spiritism or mediumship.





It can be seen from the above verses and their explanations that magic is not innately evil, but is instead a matter of the use to which it is applied. Further, it varies depending on the source of "power" or more accurately, "authority" to perform magic. In Black Magic, The Devil is the great Magical Agent employed for evil purposes by a perverse will. (12.) Inversely, in White Magic, The Trinity is the great Magical Agent employed for evil purposes by a perverse will. Forbidden, then, is the use of magic to harm another. What sorcerers and necromancers sought above all in their evocations of the impure spirit was that magnetic power which is the possession of the true adept, but was desired by them only that they might abuse it shamefully. (11.)


Therefore, the following becomes obvious:
Magic may be considered good and not likely to condemn oneself unto eternal torment, if

The ultimate intent is to help yourself or others.
The means used do not harm another.
God is recognized as the source of authority.
The means do not involve the summoning of the dead or certain means of divination (though I don't know why only certain kinds would be condemned)




Footnotes

1. Encyclopedic Dictionary of Roman Law, Adolf Berger, pg. 760
2. Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance: <http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl5.htm>
3. Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance: <http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl2.htm>
4. Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance: <http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl3.htm>
5. Encyclopedic Dictionary of Roman Law, Adolf Berger, pg. 573
6. University of Notre Dame Latin Dictionary and Grammar Aid, <www.nd.edu/~archives/latgramm.htm>
7. Dictionary.com, Word Origins <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incantator>
8. Ventriloquism: A Dissociated Perspective by Angela Mabe <http://www.unc.edu/~jimlee/tp141mabe.html>
9. University of Notre Dame Latin Dictionary and Grammar Aid, <www.nd.edu/~archives/latgramm.htm>
10. University of Notre Dame Latin Dictionary and Grammar Aid, <www.nd.edu/~archives/latgramm.htm>
11. The Ritual of High Magic, Chapter XVI, Witchcraft and Spells
12. The Doctrine of High Magic, Chapter XV, Black Magic

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shamanwizard
post Nov 1 2007, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE(Veritas @ Oct 9 2007, 08:06 PM) *
Note: The following article is written in an attempt to detail how the Christian Paradigm may reasonably be married with a practice of magic. As a consequence, there will be explicit references to the Christian religion. Viewer Discretion is advised. Seriously, don't get all angry and tell me abut the "Burning Times", how Christianity ruined everything, or how you should rise above a religious upbringing in order to practice magic. I've heard it before and wasn't impressed. This is not meant to convert or change religions, merely to serve as a reference to those who ask the question "Can a Christian be a Magician?" in earnest.
Throughout the history of humankind, the same things have been labeld as the epitome of holiness or the deepest depravity of evil. Those doctrines embraced by the majority are often rejected by the minority. For centuries, Christendom has maintained an unyieling stance of the depravity of magic, commonly referred to as witchcraft or sorcery, and confused with religions as varied as Wicca and Asatru. These conceptions have been the rallying cry of generations to save the misguided souls of the lost from the claws of the daemonic. They are also incorrect, based in part of misunderstandings of translations of translations of translations. The Torah, the Books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteonomy and Numbers, originally existed in ancient or biblical Hebrew, which is no longer spoken even by Jews. The New Testament is thought to have originally existed in Aramaic, a nearly-extinct language and later translated into Greek and Latin, further translated into English. Many of these languages do not translate well between one another; cultural subcurrents are lost in translations, specificty lost. In addition, fear clouds the judgement of men, causing them to demonize that which is not demonic. The translators of the King James Version are said to have intentionally mistranslated the Hebrew word m'khaseph, meaning a worker of evil magic, to read witch, as a result of his own paranoia. Frequently, certain verses are used to support a hostile stance on magic; some of these are detailed in this Appendix. The English Translations, except as noted, are from the KJV. Latin is from the Latin Vulgate Bible. Hebrew transliterations are mostly courtesy of the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance. The purpose is to provide the verses used to condemn magic as a whole, and show they do nothing of the kind. In addition, translations provided are intended for maximum clarity, not necesarily grammatical accuracy.
Rev. 22:15

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Foris canes, et venefici, et impudici, et homicidæ, et idolis servientes, et omnis qui amat et facit mendacium.

Venefici- Poisoners. Those who murder with poison or magical means (1.)

This verse condemns those who murder, with magic, poison, or weapon. Damnable, indeed.

Rev. 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Timidis autem, et incredulis, et execratis, et homicidis, et fornicatoribus, et veneficis, et idolatris, et omnibus mendacibus, pars illorum erit in stagno ardenti igne et sulphure: quod est mors secunda.

Venefici- Poisoners. Those who murder with poison or magical means (Sulla's reign: Lex Cornellia De Sicariis Et Veneficis) (1.)

This verse condemns those who murder, with magic, poison, or weapon. Damnable, indeed.
What does the original Greek text imply?
The critical word here is "pharmakeus" pronounced <far-mak-yoos'>. It is derived from "pharmakon," which means a drug.

It is commonly believed to have two meanings:
A person who uses magical potions for to poison others.
A person who engaged in black magick to harm others -- a sorcerer.

A few commentators suggest a third meaning:
A person who goes around spreading dissention - poisoning people's minds.
Of all of the translations, the word "sorcerer" is probably the best. Unfortunately, while this term usually refers to a person who casts evil spells to harm others, it is occasionally used to refer to any spell caster, whether the intent is to harm or to heal. So the optimum translation would probably be "evil sorcerer."

Since the Wiccan Rede specifically prohibits Wiccans from harming, dominating, manipulating or controlling others, Wiccans could in no way be covered by Revelation 21:8. (2.)

Galatians 5:19-21

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Timidis autem, et incredulis, et execratis, et homicidis, et fornicatoribus, et veneficis, et idolatris, et omnibus mendacibus, pars illorum erit in stagno ardenti igne et sulphure: quod est mors secunda.

Venefici- Poisoners. Those who murder with poison or magical means (Sulla's reign: Lex Cornellia De Sicariis Et Veneficis) (1.)

This verse condemns those who murder, with magic, poison, or weapon. Damnable, indeed.
Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

Maleficos non patieris vivere.

The mal-prefix denotes malignancy; the Spanish maleficos is an adjective that means "exerting a malign influence."

The Answer Bible reads "Put to death any woman who does evil magic. (3.)

New Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live. (3.)

New World Translation: You must not preserve a sorceress alive. (3.)

This verse specifically denotes those who use magic to do evil, although I fail to understand why it should apply only to women.

Deut. 18:10-11

There shall not be found among you anyone ....that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Nec inveniatur in te qui lustret filium suum, aut filiam, ducens per ignem: aut qui ariolos sciscitetur, et observet somnia atque auguria, nec sit maleficus,
nec incantator, nec qui pythones consulat, nec divinos, aut quærat a mortuis veritatem.

The Hebrew Terms and Definitions of the above Verse:
1. yid'oni: knowers; wizards; persons who make contact with spirits who are not of God. (Some Wiccans have engaged in spiritism and have attempted to contact the dead. However, this is not necessarily an integral part of the Wiccan religion).
2. sho'el 'ov: making forbidden contact with the dead. (Ditto) .
3. qosem q'samim: predicting the future by using lots or a similar system. (Many Wiccans as well as Christians sometimes use tarot cards, runes, scrying etc. to foretell the future, but this is not an integral part of the Wiccan religion) .
4. m'onen: predicting the future by interpreting signs in nature. (Ditto) .
5. m'nachesh an enchanter (perhaps a snake charmer, because "nachash" means snake. We have never heard of Wiccan snake charmers) .
6. chover chavar: use of knot-tying to perform magic. (Wiccans sometimes engage in knot-tying, but only for positive healing magic. Again, it is a practice that some engage in, but is not an integral part of their religion).
7. m'khaseph: an evil sorcerer (as in Exodus 22:18); a person using spoken spells to harm others. (Wiccans do not engage in this activity; they are specifically prohibited from doing so by their Wiccan Rede).
8. doresh 'el hametim: a person who makes contact with the dead - probably by another method than sho'el 'ov. (Again, there are some Wiccans who engage in spiritism, but it is not necessarily an integral part of their religion). (4.)

Maleficus means generic mischief-making or evil-doing. It also commonly denotes a sorcerer. (5.) (6.)

Incantator means one who puts a spell on or bewitches. (7.)

Qui pythones consulat means a consulting spirit. The word pythones is historically used in reference to ventriliquism disguised as spirit possession by false prophets; a base meaning of sourceless is my conclusion, and that the word came to refer to spirits who may or may not been part of a circus act. (8.)

Nec divinos means those who foretell or prophesy. (9.)

Mortuis veritatem means those who seek truth from the dead. (10.)

This verse, then, condemns contacting spirits not of God; the meaning of "of God" is debateable: Since God created all that is, including all spirits, theoretically they are all "of God"
It condemns necromancy.
It condemns divination by certain methods.
It condemns enchnting another; presumablly against there will, and arguablly including hypnotism.
It condemns using magic to harm another.
It condemns spiritism or mediumship.
It can be seen from the above verses and their explanations that magic is not innately evil, but is instead a matter of the use to which it is applied. Further, it varies depending on the source of "power" or more accurately, "authority" to perform magic. In Black Magic, The Devil is the great Magical Agent employed for evil purposes by a perverse will. (12.) Inversely, in White Magic, The Trinity is the great Magical Agent employed for evil purposes by a perverse will. Forbidden, then, is the use of magic to harm another. What sorcerers and necromancers sought above all in their evocations of the impure spirit was that magnetic power which is the possession of the true adept, but was desired by them only that they might abuse it shamefully. (11.)
Therefore, the following becomes obvious:
Magic may be considered good and not likely to condemn oneself unto eternal torment, if

The ultimate intent is to help yourself or others.
The means used do not harm another.
God is recognized as the source of authority.
The means do not involve the summoning of the dead or certain means of divination (though I don't know why only certain kinds would be condemned)
Footnotes

1. Encyclopedic Dictionary of Roman Law, Adolf Berger, pg. 760
2. Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance: <http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl5.htm>
3. Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance: <http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl2.htm>
4. Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance: <http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl3.htm>
5. Encyclopedic Dictionary of Roman Law, Adolf Berger, pg. 573
6. University of Notre Dame Latin Dictionary and Grammar Aid, <www.nd.edu/~archives/latgramm.htm>
7. Dictionary.com, Word Origins <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incantator>
8. Ventriloquism: A Dissociated Perspective by Angela Mabe <http://www.unc.edu/~jimlee/tp141mabe.html>
9. University of Notre Dame Latin Dictionary and Grammar Aid, <www.nd.edu/~archives/latgramm.htm>
10. University of Notre Dame Latin Dictionary and Grammar Aid, <www.nd.edu/~archives/latgramm.htm>
11. The Ritual of High Magic, Chapter XVI, Witchcraft and Spells
12. The Doctrine of High Magic, Chapter XV, Black Magic

I like the way you think, plus some of the greatest wizards, magicians, and alchemists were actually christians in faith,big example, lenardo da vinci, isaac newton, christian rosenkrutz,and many many more... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/Symbols_1911.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)


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"A wizard can turn fear into joy, frustration to fulfillment. A wizard can turn the time-bound into the timeless. A wizard can carry you beyond limitations into the boundless"------Deepack Chopra

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shamanwizard
post Nov 1 2007, 10:24 PM
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I consider myself a rosicrusan christian magician/wizard aprentice, and just because a few ignorant people commited such atrocities during the burning times, it does not mean that all christians think the same way about magick...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/Symbols_1911.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)


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"A wizard can turn fear into joy, frustration to fulfillment. A wizard can turn the time-bound into the timeless. A wizard can carry you beyond limitations into the boundless"------Deepack Chopra

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paxx
post Nov 2 2007, 12:51 AM
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This is something I really feel needs to be said, and understood to a great degree.

I will start by saying I am not apologizing, for any actions not taken by me. In many cases I feel most of the actions I am about to write about where terribly unjust. That said I think people should know them, know their causes and get over it. It is not the same issue today, in fact the “born again” movement while many would not mind being able to have an inquisition, they can’t so it is not an issue.

Note: I will use the word man to denote mankind, this is including women…if you are offended, thank you, not my intent, but an emotional response is better then nothing.

Now I officially start my rant.

Throughout history of mankind individuals and societies have sought to improve their standing by taking from those that had, or by keeping others from being able to take from them. Much of the most beautiful and fertile lands of the world are also the bloodiest.

Currently it is in fad to go Christian bashing. While I have done this in the past, and will do this in the future, it is not a impressive thing to bash people for things they did not do or that they have no control over. Namely the past.

Reference to the “burning time” or the “Inquisition” or the Crusades. Have little if anything to do with Christianity, they have to do with Politics. The politics of keeping the status quo or of those in power getting more power.

Why are we not blaming the Spanish government for the burning times? They allowed it, some could say that they requested the church to act?

For every mass murdering Christian I can probably find one of another religion in the same area of a different time who did a similar proportional act based on political power and population of the time.

What’s the difference…that the church still exists and we want to condemn an institution with the values of today for their crimes of yesterday.

That we currently live in a time where the majority are literate, and do not know what it is to go hungry is a testament to living in unusually good times. We live in a time where humans are learning more about themselves and have more time and ability to do so then any other time in history.

Would it be fair, if in 20 years we discover a way or method to spiritually and developmentally advance everyone to the stage of universal care, universal rights. And then if those people ever in the past reprimanded a pet or child in a way that was not up with today’s standards, they would be executed or punished for it.

What I am saying is, we are charging an organization/institution for crimes that where not considered crimes at the time. They where acting in their rights to do the terrible things they did.

Also it was not that they where after “the old religion” no the old religion was dead and buried already, they where after revolutionaries and or people who did not conform, or minorities who where too uppity. This is a trend that has happened over and over in history, the Catholics where efficient at it, and documented it well, but every culture who has advanced to the agrarian age has done it. Why? Because they could. Without extensive roads and scribes, you could have never pulled off something like the inquisition.

The majority of the people who died during the burning times, where either jewish, or political rivals of those in power locally. In a few cases (well documented it might be added) where there cases where the “witch hunters” raped or killed anyone of consequence to someone in power.

City states that where advanced enough and did not want it happening in their town, kept the inquisition to a minimum. Italy is a prime example, it had the inquisition, but it was very light compared to many other locations. Defense was usually given, and there was a change of being proved innocent. Also the inquisitors who where too harsh by local standards, where removed rather quickly.

If we are going to complain about Christians, it should be for their crimes of today, and if their only crime is believing their beliefs or expressing them…then that is no crime at all. Hell I’ll fight in every way I know how to keep them in those rights.

As for Christian faith and Magickal practice…there it gets tricky. There are plenty of churches that won’t mind one bit, but they are the vast minority. Second depending on your practice…it gets tricky. Negotiating or even conversing with demons can not look too good on a Christian resume.

However at the same time there are always ministers interested in such experiences and willing to trade information of the life for acceptance into the church, but finding those is even harder.

So while not totally easy, it is possible to be a good practicing Christian and still have full access to Magickal practice.

Another point of note, catholic mystics notably Saint Teresa of Ávila and contemporary John of the Cross. These where revolutionaries, but their published works where incredibly inspiring and while not viewed well at the time they have both been given the title of doctor of the church, the only two to have been based on mystic writings. This title has only been given to 33 people in the history of the church.

There are also people today like Fr. Thomas Keating who have some truly inspiring work, and even listening to them in an interview you feel that this is a truly holy man. To disvalue great work or works because some of the majority of people offend you, is silly. Remember there are more Christians today then ever before in human history, however as far as percentages go, their numbers are falling. As any institution, it will seek to adapt and change with the times. There is hope for it yet, and there is also some hope on my part that they cease to exist as their time is done. However if they transform into a truly positive force, and in many regards they have, I offer no ill will to them.


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--Paxx

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shamanwizard
post Nov 2 2007, 08:15 AM
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"If we are going to complain about Christians, it should be for their crimes of today, and if their only crime is believing their beliefs or expressing them…then that is no crime at all. Hell I’ll fight in every way I know how to keep them in those rights. "
I'm so with you on this one, is the same thing a wiccan, a muslim, a jew or even a pagan will do, defend their faith, also, I repeat some of the greatest wizards and magicians(including alchemist) were very pious christians all the way to their deaths........I also want to take this time to correct another miscompception created by mistranslations of the modern bibles is the issue of one god......the first bibles did say that we have to remain loyal to God(called YHWH) because he was the creator of everything, including other gods...its just that in ancient bibles the genesis starts like this: "In the beginning everything was darkness, and then God created the elohims, an they created light and the rest of the world"........elohims in here means gods.....so just because we are christians, we shouldn't denie the existence of other gods, but we have to remain loyal to YHWH, as the great creator of every thing, including other gods....


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"A wizard can turn fear into joy, frustration to fulfillment. A wizard can turn the time-bound into the timeless. A wizard can carry you beyond limitations into the boundless"------Deepack Chopra

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Petrus
post Dec 15 2007, 07:58 AM
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I think as you're saying that the Bible implies, it would come down to the nature of each specific act that was being committed by the practitioner in question. Although there are specific verses opposing sorcery and mediumship in particular as you say, to me the single greatest Biblical argument in support of magi was the account in Matthew of Jesus being visited by three of them at the time of his birth.

It is also of course I think possible to go with the interpretation that Jesus himself was an intercessory magician of tremendous ability, and also that he made mention that his abilities were available to others as well.

I have great difficulty believing that association with infernal spirits in particular would be acceptable from a Biblical standpoint; evocation is probably the single main area where you would need to tread very carefully.

A recent example comes to mind; that of the Lord of the Rings' author, J.R.R. Tolkien. Although he was a devout Christian, I feel that the character Gandalf was an implicit concession that certain "extracurricular" activities could be considered allowable, within the framework of an otherwise entirely normal form of Christian faith. I feel that I found evidence for this in Bardon's evocation, where Bardon describes the use of two mirrors in a manner which strikingly resembles the function of Tolkien's palantiri, or remote seeing stones. It led me to believe that Tolkien must have known more about occultism than he perhaps would have been comfortable admitting to a general audience, and that he utilised that knowledge in Gandalf's creation.


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Magical Evocation. All the fun of train surfing, without having to leave the house.

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