Dream, Reality, Astral?, Which is reality? Options

So Before anyone blasts me, let me just say I am still quite new to the whole esoteric community.

Here is my question.
Are dreams the reality? What I mean is this; suppose our astral self is the one that goes to sleep in the day time or when ever we are awake and what we call reality is actually the dream. If not then what connection does dream and the astral have to reality? Read my story below to get why I am asking such a thing before you reply.

For years I have been having these dreams of friends, family, strangers that come true after I have them or sometimes of things that have happened to others that I have no idea why and how I would know information about these people.

Now up to just a little while ago I was a strict christian. But my dreams and other factors prompt me to ask a lot of questions about life and the bible. When I confronted those in high positions within my community and no satisfactory answer could be given, i seeked out the truth (journey) that would make sense of everything. It has been almost a year now since I've started on this, but with more than 20 years of christianity behind me it makes it hard to accept other things, but I do realize that the whole christian society is being "brain washed" if that is the right term to use to some extent where its hard to accept certain other truths even if it was looking you directly into your face.

My journey has taken me into the occult / ancient religions / kabalah (never knew the jewish world existed such a faith) / hermetics (readings such as franz barden) / astral projection/travel / the elements / magick / shamanish / alchemy and the list goes on. Looking into it all they all have something in common esoteric and the occult; if i have this correct "a small group/community that are involved with or the studies of the unknown". Before just hearing the word occult made me think "evil" (naive thinking instilled from christianity.). This brings back the phrase that "people are fearful of what they do not understand". Now the meaning of the word sits a little better with me.

Anyhow i continued on; but even more confused than before. I search and have visited many forums/boards/websites, read many online articles, purchased books but still nothing until just recently I became more interested in astral projection (Again Vagrant Dreams guide was phonominal). Since I have no actual contact with anyone of the occult in my community, I thought to myself why not give youtube another try(visual/audio rather than just realing). I sifted through a few until I popped onto "astral projection for beginners " which after i experienced my first oob(got frustrated for a bit, but finally after months poof) from there i searched more and popped to another forum/website which was also helpful. But ofcourse this was my first forum.

Loved the other site and interviews they had with many esoteric individuals and the respect that they have taken it to another level than the typical esoteric sites I have been to. But this forum has also given me great insight and pointed me int he right direction many times with answers to many of the unknown.

My other question to you is this, Are there others like myself more experienced that I can talk/chat/email/relate with on the whole occult/esoteric subject?

Thanks for reading. Hope to hear from all of you.

Welcome! All cultures and religions, including Christianity, have esoteric traditions. The knowledge is hidden because usually it's powerful, although some of it is still dogma and bits of odds and ends that have no relevance anymore. Most people don't know about it, what they do know frightens them, so perhaps it's just as well.

In answer to your query: Well, what exactly are you hoping to get out of the occult? Are you looking for true knowledge or just some interesting conversation topics that you can use at cocktail parties and that's it? Are you looking for the meaning of life? Are you looking for power--if so, what kind of power? There are many different types. Are you looking for some kind of unified field theory that explains everything away and pigeonholes all sorts of weird experiences into an easily understandable framework? If it's the last you'll be disappointed.

If you just want astral projection, think about why you want it. Do you want it for kicks or something to impress your friends with? Do you want to be able to use it to help your life run more smoothly, or anything else along those lines? It's just an ability like being able to run a four minute mile or pilot an aircraft--by itself it means nothing, at least to me. Only you can answer these questions for yourself.

If you've been raised Christian and want to keep that belief system, look into esoteric Christianity. A lot of Christian mystics have become saints, and studying their lives may help you. Christianity comes in a lot of different flavours--the one thing they have in common is the belief Christ as God's representative on Earth died on the Cross at Cavalry to redeem the human race from original sin, then was resurrected three days later and took His place at the right hand of the Father in Heaven. Beyond that dogma varies widely between denominations/sects. Presbyterians don't necessarily believe the same things as Roman Catholics who don't believe in the same things as the Russian Orthodox church who don't believe in the same things as the Mormons who in turn don't believe in all the same things as evangelicals, etc.--but they're all stripes of one religion, Christianity. Most of your classical Western Ceremonial magic comes out of the Judeo-Christian worldview.

If you think it conflicts with Christianity, not necessarily. I don't understand why it would, because whatever you do is not invalidating the belief that Christ is the redeemer. JMO. Proper magic should put you more in touch with the Divine, not remove you from it--and IIRC Christ himself said that what He did all of you could do as well.

As for what is real--the answer is EVERYTHING. The key lies in figuring out what is objectively real and what is subjectively real and where they overlap. People take too much at face value and get burned.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif) Darkmage

Yes.What is the difference between dream and reality? They are 2 of the 3 differnt levels of consciousness: waking, dreaming, and dreamless sleep,. In certain forms of Eastern spirituality Reality is Consciousness, not what is "happening" in consciousness (awake or asleep). To get insight into the philosophically illusory nature of ordinary reality, practices related to lucid dreaming and astral projection are cultivated. In examining the quality of consciousness in dreams, you can gain insight into the quality of consciousness in waking life and sometimes realize that even when you are awake, you are just as automatic, reactive, and unconscious as you usual are when dreaming--or else you can recognize when you are really fullly conscious both in dream and while waking and try to cultivate that.

You feel that you have premonitory dreams. Well, ask yourself where consciousness is. Is it something in your head or body or is it nonlocal? If it is nolocal and "bigger" than just the size of your body, then you could have a broader range of awareness, couldn't you.

As far as the Christian background, really really don't have to apologize for or bash that tradition. It is not the tradition; its what people make of it. There are magical and esoteric forms of Christianity that are actual very important to forms of ceremonial magic. Jesus was a mage, after all. You might want to read up on Dion Fortune or Gareth Knight if you are interested in a magical Christian perspective--or look in Gnosticism. But as you shift your orientation from one tradition to another, you will for a time get uneasy warning thoughts from the psychic censor but they will eventually pass as you become more absorbed in a new paradigm.

Welcome! All cultures and religions, including Christianity, have esoteric traditions. The knowledge is hidden because usually it's powerful, although some of it is still dogma and bits of odds and ends that have no relevance anymore. Most people don't know about it, what they do know frightens them, so perhaps it's just as well.

In answer to your query: Well, what exactly are you hoping to get out of the occult? Are you looking for true knowledge or just some interesting conversation topics that you can use at cocktail parties and that's it? Are you looking for the meaning of life? Are you looking for power--if so, what kind of power? There are many different types. Are you looking for some kind of unified field theory that explains everything away and pigeonholes all sorts of weird experiences into an easily understandable framework? If it's the last you'll be disappointed.

If you just want astral projection, think about why you want it. Do you want it for kicks or something to impress your friends with? Do you want to be able to use it to help your life run more smoothly, or anything else along those lines? It's just an ability like being able to run a four minute mile or pilot an aircraft--by itself it means nothing, at least to me. Only you can answer these questions for yourself.

If you've been raised Christian and want to keep that belief system, look into esoteric Christianity. A lot of Christian mystics have become saints, and studying their lives may help you. Christianity comes in a lot of different flavours--the one thing they have in common is the belief Christ as God's representative on Earth died on the Cross at Cavalry to redeem the human race from original sin, then was resurrected three days later and took His place at the right hand of the Father in Heaven. Beyond that dogma varies widely between denominations/sects. Presbyterians don't necessarily believe the same things as Roman Catholics who don't believe in the same things as the Russian Orthodox church who don't believe in the same things as the Mormons who in turn don't believe in all the same things as evangelicals, etc.--but they're all stripes of one religion, Christianity. Most of your classical Western Ceremonial magic comes out of the Judeo-Christian worldview.

If you think it conflicts with Christianity, not necessarily. I don't understand why it would, because whatever you do is not invalidating the belief that Christ is the redeemer. JMO. Proper magic should put you more in touch with the Divine, not remove you from it--and IIRC Christ himself said that what He did all of you could do as well.

As for what is real--the answer is EVERYTHING. The key lies in figuring out what is objectively real and what is subjectively real and where they overlap. People take too much at face value and get burned.

I'm hoping to gain much out of the occult. More so wisdom and understanding of what we are trully capable of and what there is to experience in this world, or the universe even. As for christianity I stand corrected, it is as SoroZSD23 said "it's not the tradition; its what people make it". I was part of a religion which I will not mention at this time; that believed that any form of magic or study into the occult is evil and hence no one shold get involved with.

SororZSD23 thanks for the input also. Both answers shed some more light on what I was thinking. I will keep on studying, practising and see if it leads me closer to that truth I am searching for in the end.

Choa.

I was part of a religion which I will not mention at this time; that believed that any form of magic or study into the occult is evil and hence no one shold get involved with.

I know the feeling ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fie.gif)


I live with my mother (a dyed-in-the-wool Southern Baptist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/book.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/Symbols_1911.gif) ) I have to hide my stuff from her, lest she think Yours Truly is into devil worship (I'm not.)

reality is simply 'what your subconscious believes is real, becomes real' (eventually) - simple enough and talks you through the whole thing if you listen to it

lets say you wanted to levitate or some such useless ego-driven bs, perhaps to prove to yourself that magic is real or whatever (which, btw, totally invalidates the subconscious believing it if you don't)

1) get your subconscious to believe it (which requires time, persistence and a method of getting the info into the subconscious in an understandable, believable manner)

2) keep it up uintil the subconscious accepts it as a normal part of reality

3) poof, it now exists in reality (at least for you), and now you can now levitate, but after all this your ego probably won't care about levitating to impress your friends anymore

reality is simply 'what your subconscious believes is real, becomes real' (eventually) - simple enough and talks you through the whole thing if you listen to it

lets say you wanted to levitate or some such useless ego-driven bs, perhaps to prove to yourself that magic is real or whatever (which, btw, totally invalidates the subconscious believing it if you don't)

1) get your subconscious to believe it (which requires time, persistence and a method of getting the info into the subconscious in an understandable, believable manner)

2) keep it up uintil the subconscious accepts it as a normal part of reality

3) poof, it now exists in reality (at least for you), and now you can now levitate, but after all this your ego probably won't care about levitating to impress your friends anymore

Interesting remark. However, the order of events. In a world perceived as such, would be reversed.

1) Any ability performed in the future can be performed now, proclaiming the future as an endless stream.

2) Evolve the reality to fit the perception of subconscious.

3) Realize your belief has already been earned for what you see in front of you, you've come a long way.

*wash rinse repeat*


<3*'-_^with love ^_-'*E>
~III

This post has been edited by Casadeluna: Feb 7 2010, 12:57 AM

So Before anyone blasts me, let me just say I am still quite new to the whole esoteric community.

Here is my question.
Are dreams the reality? What I mean is this; suppose our astral self is the one that goes to sleep in the day time or when ever we are awake and what we call reality is actually the dream. If not then what connection does dream and the astral have to reality? Read my story below to get why I am asking such a thing before you reply.

For years I have been having these dreams of friends, family, strangers that come true after I have them or sometimes of things that have happened to others that I have no idea why and how I would know information about these people.

Now up to just a little while ago I was a strict christian. But my dreams and other factors prompt me to ask a lot of questions about life and the bible. When I confronted those in high positions within my community and no satisfactory answer could be given, i seeked out the truth (journey) that would make sense of everything. It has been almost a year now since I've started on this, but with more than 20 years of christianity behind me it makes it hard to accept other things, but I do realize that the whole christian society is being "brain washed" if that is the right term to use to some extent where its hard to accept certain other truths even if it was looking you directly into your face.

My journey has taken me into the occult / ancient religions / kabalah (never knew the jewish world existed such a faith) / hermetics (readings such as franz barden) / astral projection/travel / the elements / magick / shamanish / alchemy and the list goes on. Looking into it all they all have something in common esoteric and the occult; if i have this correct "a small group/community that are involved with or the studies of the unknown". Before just hearing the word occult made me think "evil" (naive thinking instilled from christianity.). This brings back the phrase that "people are fearful of what they do not understand". Now the meaning of the word sits a little better with me.

Anyhow i continued on; but even more confused than before. I search and have visited many forums/boards/websites, read many online articles, purchased books but still nothing until just recently I became more interested in astral projection (Again Vagrant Dreams guide was phonominal). Since I have no actual contact with anyone of the occult in my community, I thought to myself why not give youtube another try(visual/audio rather than just realing). I sifted through a few until I popped onto "astral projection for beginners " which after i experienced my first oob(got frustrated for a bit, but finally after months poof) from there i searched more and popped to another forum/website which was also helpful. But ofcourse this was my first forum.

Loved the other site and interviews they had with many esoteric individuals and the respect that they have taken it to another level than the typical esoteric sites I have been to. But this forum has also given me great insight and pointed me int he right direction many times with answers to many of the unknown.

My other question to you is this, Are there others like myself more experienced that I can talk/chat/email/relate with on the whole occult/esoteric subject?

Thanks for reading. Hope to hear from all of you.

Lets focus on the first ..ok second line...."Are Dreams a reality?"

First off mite i say that this topic could have its own section entirely devoted to those insane responses you will receive.

next let me hit you with some assimilated acidic insanity..non-infectious:[-}

Dreams,,,,as a friend once spoke, "Perhaps dreams are our true lives, like a never ending video game, and this, this place here, is the chartroom, where we swap secrets."
Interssting points, what if? Well lets look deeper, darker, heavier....
In Dreams there is that sort of sense of basic laws of physics, yet they are easily defiable when confronted with a problem. ie: your dreams world HAS NO LIMITATIONS, its a completely free world, so why are we able to be free in it? Alas, the spirit is not without the body, as a dream is not without imagination. Without this percieved life, there would be no dream...so there must be some direct link...
THERE IS, its YOU! you are the molecular gap between a synapse and a receptor nerve. How you are in this life, DIRECTLY(through channeling of imagination thru you) affects your dream. IE: how your mind has formed in this life, is how your mind is formed on the other side....oh but there's more...
Suppose everything around you, right now, everything you see, is in your perceptable range...yet you do not, and in fact, can NOT notice every single piece of information presented before you, except by the very sense of our primordial understandings of life. All thing observed in a days time, compute through your SUBconsiouss---your subconsiouss is basicly an itunes that collects songs and has a genius program to link them together in playlists----

Strange how thoughts, either thought to yourself very quickly, or thought solely to your "perceived self" affect you and your dreams....so were connected to this dream world....and this one...well what about him,,,and her,,, and him,,, are they not connected to me?

Alas this is where one love comes into play....There is a single embodied realm we inhabit, yet it is so very fragmented, time space, its all being twisted and altered right before our very eyes....as I am here with you now, I am just brushing my teeth, or winking at my kitty. We all meet in a subjigated plane, this plane, is the ethereal plane, think of it as the internet through thought. Again this could stem on for hours and hours, stringing together almost every known mysterious phenomena to Dreams....

Aye, if you leave me, leave with this in your pocket, Before a thought an idea, before an idea a dream.

^^^iii***III^^^