Using magick to get pregnant, Is it right? Options

I don't know if I'm posting this on the right board, it's such a strange topic. But anyways, on another forum that I frequent, the topic of getting pregnant with the aid of magick was brought up. It was a young teen who asked, and we've quit the debate over it. I thought it would be interesting to bring the question over here, and see what others have to say about it.

My own opinion stands at forcing a teen pregnancy is wrong, they aren't established yet, too young, y'know the whole dealio.

Disclaimer: My opinion is my own, and not to be looked at as a universal one. Different societies go by different ethics and morals. I speak for the Canadian/American societies, based not only the horribly scary statistics, but also through witnessing some aweful cases.

Moved to a more appropriate forum - Mediocracy

This post has been edited by mediocracy: Aug 5 2005, 11:39 AM

People have rights to their own opinion and are respected.

I was thinking of the opposite question actually (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) "Using magick to get abortion?" well.....

However, if I'm married and having difficulties conceiving a baby then I would have no problem seeking supranatural solution - only if after I am assured of the safety of the working. I don't want any demon manifesting on the baby lol!

But it's interesting to note, is it not, that the earliest magic and religious artifacts (indeed, among the earliest artifacts altogether) are fertility charms? To me, the evidence seems practically conclusive that magic(k) has always been bound up with physical reproduction - human, animal and plant - as well as the metaphorical 'reproduction' of the cycle of the year celebrated in Wicca (among other faiths) and, through that, the rebirth and regeneraltion of the human soul.

I understand your take on the ethical question of the individual involved chosing to become pregnant, DollHouseKitty, but I'm not sure where the magic comes into it. Are you asking about 'professional' ethics as a witchcraft practitioner or elder? Would they be different if you were, say, a pharmacist? Or is it broader than that?

When you talk about witnessing awful cases, are they specifically magic related? The way I see it, there is clearly a crisis in Western culture concerning this whole issue (I think I can confidently subscribe the UK to your US/Canada axis on this one), but my opinion broadly speaking is that we need a more mystical, sacred aproach to what is, after all, still the miracle of reproductive life, whether the pill has been popped and the genome sequenced or not.

I think it is wrong to do magick on others without there approval.

If a teen wanted to get pregnant and did magick on herself to ease that, then i see no harm in it.

However i don't think teen pregnancy is something good for the parents (= the teens), or the child. If they really want to get pregnant they can do as they please. Freedom of choice and will is more important than my view on such matters. I have no desire to force my limited view and will onto others.

Forcing some teen girl to get pregnant is completely wrong in my book.
Its not a matter of free will for the girl anymore, its oppression of someone else's will.

Magic in matters of sex, love and procreation is immoral & unethical whether with or without the approval of the persons involved. It goes against the laws of Nature.

Okee! On the cases that I have witnessed...I lived in Canada's unofficial city of witchs', and I worked at the most popular metaphysical store there for over a year before moving. I had at least 1 teen a week come in and ask for fertility spells, the youngest one looked no older than 12. My boss and mentor at the time, had warned me against these girls, because the cities rate of unwanted and abused children amongst teens was horribly high. So, of course I followed her "rule", I wanted to keep my job, right? Anyways, there where a few girls that frequented the store alot, and knew their way around magick fairly decently. When I first started, two of them came in and bought a statue of the fertility Goddess, you all know who she is, and I thought it odd that they would get this, looking and acting so young.

About 4 months after that, BOTH of them came in and looked like they had accomplished the goal of what the Goddess provides. Fine, no big deal. Until the one came up to me and asked for spells and advice to find a job and stability. I looked at her questionally, and was about to proceed in directing her to the right tools and such, when her other friend piped up and said both their parents kicked them out, their living at the YWCA, had to drop out of school and now need money and a real place to live because of what? They got pregnant. The worst part about it, was the guy...no kidding, the guy wasn't even from Canada, he lives in Australia and came there for a vacation, or something like a vacation.

That's only one...then there are the people I'm friends with who used magick to bring about pregnancy, not everyone I know granted, but there are some. One used "black magick", before I even met him, and found himself and his new family struggling to even feed themselves, mind you effectively pay the bills. They wanted to get pregnant so bad, they didn't even think about that one person is bringing in the bread, and it wasnt a steady means of doing such...he was one of the readers at the store I worked at.

Those are only two, I have a few more, but I think I've written enough to explain my point.

On the literal context, statistically speaking, 1 in 5 teen parents are actually able to support their children. 1 in 5. I used to volunteer for Child Welfare back in Saskatoon, and was thouroughly horrified at the numbers of neglected and abused children. At that time, the youngest prostitute was 7, a little girl whose mother pimped her out because she didn't want to work for a living. Do you know how old her mother was? 23. Do the math. I didn't just help with teen parents, but all sorts. The majority was young mothers coming in because the father left, and won't help out, their parents won't help because they've caused so much trouble with the family, they've given up.

This isn't just in one city, it's all over.

Fertility spells in general are absolutely groovy! No doubt! But at the rate that these spells are being used, with not a single thought about what it could cause, is disturbing. So many people are turning to spells because it's the easy way out (or so they think), and alot do it because it's flashy and fun. My concern doesn't even sit with the young mothers, it's the children that get the shitty end of the deal is where my heart goes out too.

I do understand that their are teen parents out there that have given their children excellent homes, my best friend is one of them (her pregnancy wasn't planned though).

And just for clarification, this teen I mentioned in the OP wasn't forced by anyone to try and get pregnant, She was trying to force it to happen.

DollHouseKitty - yes, those really are terrible cases. Grace be with the children involved.

It seems to me that one of the difficulties involved from your particular professional standpoint is the unspecificity of magical items - I've used fertility charms to get over writers' block, and to bless the crops on my smallholding, and I have a replica of that Gaia statue on my altar as I type - so the possibility of having a roped-off 'over-18s' section is hardly viable.

I have an issue with your language, however: magic certainly can't "force" a pregnancy. Not even the pharmaceutical behemoths can do that. At most, it's part of a process, whose outcome is never entirely certain. I still maintain that introducing a degree of reverence and mysticism into that process is likely to do far more good than harm.

Durki, your position is quite clear, but you omit to engage with the counterarguments. Why, precisely, am I so very wrong?

well this has nothing much to do with the magical part of the story.
It is possible to get pregnant without fertility spells too.

The way i see it, these girls are just stupid and i feel sorry for their kids. But the girls can't complain, they got what they wanted and now they can't handle it, too bad for them.
Stupidity and magick never mix well, then stupidity and life don't mix well either.

Freedom of choice and will are beautiful things. But they do have some drawbacks for the people that make the wrong free choices.
This has nothing much to do with magick, its just life.

That's very true, Fox! Life in general throws you the curves that you walk into.

Any one can get pregnant if they wanted to bad enough (female wise, that is!), through either a very stubborn will, focus and the such, AI, hormone therapy, whatev. But with those two girls, they in essence "blamed" magick for getting them pregnant, even though I highly suspect they timed it, and didn't use protection. But magick is simply that, your mind, focus and will. Sympathetic, almost.

Its kind of sad that these girls do not take responsibility for their actions, and just blame magick. It is like blaming the gun that shoots you instead of the shooter.

On the other hand, it is convenient for the girls to have something else than themselves to blame. They can live with the thought they had no fault in it, it was the workings of magick that got them pregnant. In that way they don't have to feel guilty about it.

Very convenient...

Magic in matters of sex, love and procreation is immoral & unethical whether with or without the approval of the persons involved. It goes against the laws of Nature.

I find these blanket statements about morality and the 'laws of nature' to be quite absurd. Magick is just a way of trying to impose the individuals will, to manifest a certain outcome. This is no different to any medical procedure. So for all those that say tampering with nature is immoral I assume you practice what you preach and do not have any medical treatment.

yeah, i share your opinion mediocracy. But i was just ignoring the post in question. Best not to respond to such obvious trolling.

He had sent me an email with the same bland statement, also.

Fox, you brought up an excellent conundrum, that I never really thought of! Convenience it is, that which I have no idea now if those two are using that excuse or not. I only pray that they have come to their senses and realized that it was their own doing that got them into that mess.

Fertility rights being a matter of morality? I didn't want to answer that due to the fact I was too lazy earlier (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif) . Anywaysss...if these rites are supposedly morally and ethically wrong, what should you tell all the couples out there who are struggling to have children? The ones who need medical science to give them the child they so badly want and need?

Then there's the FACT that humanity has been doing these rites since the dawn of man! Whether it be with herbs, paintings on a wall, ceremonies, or even just lots of sex.

Is it just me, or do you seem like the type of person that never smiles, and refuses to think outside the box?

Lets keep the personal insults out of the forums please. A difference of opinion is not an excuse to attack a person. - Mediocracy

Is it just me, or have I been stuck at 72 posts for the past 6 or 7 postings?

This post has been edited by mediocracy: Aug 9 2005, 12:05 AM

Is it just me, or have I been stuck at 72 posts for the past 6 or 7 postings?

Posting anywhere on the Coffee Shop, Support, Announcements, and the Sewer does not add to anyone's total posts count (admin and modsquad included)

Ahhh...that makes sense now. Thankies!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/offtopic.gif)

Dollhousekitty, sorry so off topic unbelievable of me...

Who is that gorgeous angel in your posts?

It's a photo by Thomas Schüpping, a German photographer. He does some phenomenal work.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/offtopic.gif) umm... dollhouse... is it me, or is your avatar a pic of 2 girls kissing... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/offtopic.gif)

on a more on-topic note, I see no reason why a teenager would need to bother with having an infant to take care of.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/offtopic.gif) umm... dollhouse... is it me, or is your avatar a pic of 2 girls kissing...  (IMG:style_emoticons/default/offtopic.gif)

I sure hope so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/uglyhammer.gif)


Seriously though, I agree with most of what's been stated above. Going through all the motions and then calling it magic is really deglamorizing to the art. Even if it were magic the people in question are still responsible for it.

This post has been edited by Bb3: Aug 10 2005, 12:45 AM

Yes, WhiteRaven, it is two women embracing. It's a show of my pride, and it looks beautiful (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohyeah.gif)

Hi everyone! This is my first ever posting at Sacred Magick so i am a little nervous. i'm not really sure why i chose such a controversal topic to reply to except that you all seem really nice. i have been to forums where all you do is get attacked and beat down, it was really disturbing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/black eye.gif) So, on to the topic, i think that the most important thing to remember is that if something is not meant to be, no amount of spellwork in the world is going to make it happen. And there is also this, and it can be most controversal, i believe that we are born here to learn certain lessons to help our souls grow. My mother was thirteen when she got pregnant with me and i was abused by my father, my partner was also abused, and as horrible as it was, i really think that i was placed in that situation for a reason, it made me a strong and flexible person. Some of the strongest and most unique people i have ever met were born into appalling situations and came out better for it. What is going to happen will happen with or without magick, you can't fix all the worlds ills or the world would stagnate. Help where you can, teach where its needed but above all understand that there cant be light and love without darkness.

My biological mother was either 18 or 19 when I was born. Thankfully, she chose to put me up for adoption, something that has turned out wonderfully for me. I personally believe that one should not bring a child into the world if one is unable to care for it, or if one would be unwilling to put it up for adoption should one be unable to care for it.

Having shared my two cents regarding the issue of teen pregnancy itself, I will move on to the question at hand. I have no qualms about using so-called "black magick." If I am able to influence events in my favour, I will do so with dignity and honour, and through the application of any tool at my disposal which does not threaten to strip myself of dignity. Should my wife and I (when I get married, that is) decide it is time to have a child, I would, without hesitation, resort to thaumaturgy as quickly as I would modern science to maneouver events toward a favourable outcome for my wife and I.

While I can and do understand moral debates about the use of thaumaturgy to affect others, I simply do not understand it regarding its affect on self and willing parties.

Willing anything on anyone else without their consent or their awareness is immoral and somewhat evil ...

Using magick to get pregnant I suppose is possible ... my lover would project himself into a friend's room who had been trying to get pregnant for years without much success.

He would 'shed his seeds' visualising being inside her over a number of nights ... unbeknown to her ...

Apparently she fell pregnant around that time ... and wasn't actually sleeping with anyone ... she'd given up.

Apparently the child's facial features are like my lover's but I have not seen for myself.

I've had a number of heated debates on him on this theme in that his friend was not even aware he was doing this to her. She did comment about having erotic dreams at the time and thought she'd been impreganted by an incubus.

If he tries it with me ... I've warned him about having to find work as a eunuch in the middle east!