I'm A Bad Christian- Thinking About Doing This...... Options

OK folks, let me tell a little about myself. I'm a new member here, and am interested in this bussiness. This is bothering me a'lot. I have always been drawn to the occult since my Grandfather was posessed (and got rid of the wretched familiar thankfully) when I was little. Big family secret. Thank God he got rid of this thing, but this is still in part a generational curse. Now , your probably wondering why a Christian would involve himself with something nasty such as demon summoning right? Well, the answer is the same Saul gave in Endor- I need to "know"-even if I get kicked in the stomach. I desire several things for this evocation, first, I wish for certain knowledge. Second, I want to plead to the evil beings which (have the legal authority to continue thanks to my foolishness) to stop messing with my family (as I said- this is a generational thing. the familiar left my grandfather but he still torments my family from occasion to occasion. All thanks to these damn books on the occult he had tsc tsc). Anyway, this is my first evocation, I hate this bussiness but I'm really worried about a series of things. I have chosen the Demon Paimon and shall follow the Greater key/Legemeton procedures. Why such a fierce infernal king for a first summoning? Easy: I wish to contact a being who though clearly fallen still wishes to serve God in some measure and worships him above all things. A contrite being. I have read accounts here and elsewhere that Paimon has utter contempt for individuals who don't fear God. He loathes disobedient pricks, he detests occultists and magicians. He requires respect from the summoner.Excellent. I want a wise spirit. The ceremony is set, but I really fear (considering family history) that the possession factor could be very real. Your opinion?

Well? No comments? this looks bad, but I'm really going for it. Recommendations? I want to be careful and not give an inch of legal authority if possible, though most will be given as soon as I draw the sigil....

Hey bro..First off,what is your experience level with magick?Read the posts by the experienced guys like ashnook and nebo.My opinion is you shouldnt jump straight into evocations,especially if you havent had at least a year practicing the basics of magick(developing astral senses,getting good at banishing etc etc).I have been practicing hindu occultism for 9 years and have just started with the Necronomicon,and even i am wary of going straight into the Goetias.Be careful..

Well, I have had some experience in consulting familiars (non-Goetia, non-Necronomicon, more of African animist mysticism), and I have studied this to some degree (about 2 years or so) Anyway, I'm really worried about this, so I think I'll leave it for later, though everything is technically ready. This is VERY serious stuff, and the last thing my family needs is bad luck. Ive begged God for some solutions to a certain family problem I'm having (sister has debilitating ilness- I bet this is demon related, especially with all this crap I'm involved in and my other family members were involved in) as well as certain knowledge I need to progress in my life......but the silence just continues. As for banishings and protection- I have it prepared, but I know that as soon as that spirit is called they will have legal authority to get me and I will deserve it (which worries me).

What is your experience with magick? How good are you at meditation and controling your thoughts and body?

I'm extremely good at controlling my thoughts and at meditation. My grandfather who I just mentioned above could do OBEs in seconds among other things and I am very like him.

Why do you keep saying that they have legal authority over you? That attitude will give a malevolent enity nothing but more power over you. I am not sure evoking Paimon will help you in this issue.

Fact is it will have legal authority, most people here know that banishing only work in the short term, the spirit remains. Anyway, I'm not trying this. Too dangerous.

r9999,
First off you shouldn't go through this period. You need to realize that evocation is a very serious business where a proper mindset can make or break you. If you use the Goetia you need to have command over your fear. Right now it seems that your ruled by yours. I believe you might have more success calling on The Arch-Angels. They may be able to help your family. They are positive entities and work for God in all things so you may have great success with them. I think you should read more books on magic. Above all else keep an open mind. Reading about magic doesn't damn you, it enlightens you. Bottom line you need to know that using the Goetia requires a strong faith in yourself and God. For you will be commanding them in Gods name if they get unruly. Just my 2 cents.

At the same time, you have no assurance that:

A) This isn't a Macbeth-esque scenario where they "help you" only to see your complete damnation....

B) You'll never know who your dealing with.See above

C)The same God you invoke as protection against them demanded that you be put to death in elder days for invoking these entities....hardly sounds like "protection", more like God allowing these tools to be constructed for the purpose of temptation and testing and these beings salivating for a soul to corrupt receiving legal authority to do so because you were a prick and disobeyed an express commandment and deserve it....

so I'm not trying ANYTHING, anytime soon. Nope. I'm leaving this for the time being. Maybe later when I don't have family to worry about.

There are no "evil" spirits or anything like that. It all depends on how you work with each spirit, all spirits (demons, angels, daemons, dark ones, light ones, whatever you want to call them) require respect if you want to work with them. Think of making business with someone, whether you like or dislike him you try to settle down a price to get what you ask for so in the end both of you are happy. Well that is almost like what you do when asking for help from spirits... Demons, Angels, or w/e

Also, note that invoking and evoking any spirit without knowing about it is not a good idea, summoning Demons is also not the best idea, especially if you do not have as much background information on what you're summoning, or any relations with that spirit.

I can assure you, Demons, just like any other spirits, are helpful spirits to work with.

Hey r9999,

Just a question. Where did you get your info on Paimon?... first thing said in the Goetia about him is that he is "very obedient unto LUCIFER". Nothing about fear of G-d or hatred towards Magicians and/or occultists. He is a great King, and will judge whether or not you are worthy for his knowledge - it can be surmised that he is not appreciative of the dabbling occultist summoning him for shits and giggles. Something to think about is how you interpret Lucifer - that is, whether you see him as the bringer of light or as the embodiment of darkness. Given your Christian upbringing and evident remaining ties to the tradition it seems to me you likely believe in the later interpretation and are therefore walking into a lion's den. Be carefull, do your research! Gmcbroom's suggestion to invoke archangels seems much safer and more practical given your situation. Good luck.

Well, let's think outside the box. What makes a demon "great", what makes a watcher a watcher, a throne a throne, a dominion a dominion? Is it not obedience to God, is not your angelic rank determined by your relationship with the almighty? In the Bible, Lucifer was the covering cherub. That's not even Seraphim, that elite within elite. He interpreted the direct orders of God into the lesser ones (look at the structure of the mercy seat to understand where I'm getting at). Thus, supposing God is God, would it not make sense to compel this spirit to obey him to a large degree even in a fallen state? Of course! Read the epistle of Jude- Michael and Satan arguing over Moses' body (why did he want Moses body, Satan did? We don't know, ask him). Did Michael just invoke the massive number of holy angels, overwhelm the adversary, and finish the argument (he could have). No. He just went "God rebuke thee" and left the evil doer to his act. A difference in rank prevented any further argument- an archangel can't go against a throne or above (for now). Satan has this world delegated to him and thus must rule it to some degree like the almighty so wishes.Thus it is safe to say that the higher you go up the ladder EVEN in the evil doer ladder (the Goetia spirits) the tendency to obey the almighty, to follow his requests increases. I bet Lucifer fell precisely because of a mixture of pride and refusing to interpret a task as the almighty wanted him to, as opposed to just brute lust or anger. My interpretation. Also why I wanted to deal with Paimon, because many posters here familiar with him say the main lesson he imparts is to view the world through the lens of God, or else the knowledge subdues you. He also hates summoners, hates being summoned (I bet I know why as well- because it irks the most high, thus irking HIM too!). But no- I'm never summoning any demons (at least for now, I'm not Dr.Faustus, don't want to have my soul eaten up). If I do it will be a "safe" one, one that doesn't get too irked or nasty (and since I know what type of lies might be fed, I won't fall for deception).


Stalker, how do you know a demon isn't mounting a setup on you? That's the worse sort of mischief (to put it lightly)- have a demon play the good guy with you so that you can be screwed in hell for an eternity after signing a compact. Hey, just read Faust or Macbeth! I on the other hand feel safe for the following reason- the almighty has given a covenant, that once you are in his hands nobody can snatch you from him. Not even Lucifer. Thus if I die and go to hell he lied to me. And God can't obviously lie. On the other hand, I bet these demons would perfectly well have the legal authority to burn me up, go after somebody close yo me, or pester me endlessly (which is quite different).

This post has been edited by r9999: Nov 27 2006, 04:49 PM

At the same time, you have no assurance that:

A) This isn't a Macbeth-esque scenario where they "help you" only to see your complete damnation....

Every instance of magick can become this if you're open to the possibility. Not just evokation and dealing with spirits. Getting a new job can seem to be a good thing, and then ruin your life. So, don't be so paranoid. Someone else mentioned the role of your emotional control and mastery. If your fear rules you, you're already under 'someone elses' control.

B) You'll never know who your dealing with.See above

I sure as h*ll do (pun intended (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ). So do most magicians worth their salt - but then, we are certain without a doubt that who we call is who will pick up the phone. Then we test them if we're wise, to be even more sure, and if it's not them, you better know they'll fess up if you validate their identity.

C)The same God you invoke as protection against them demanded that you be put to death in elder days for invoking these entities....hardly sounds like "protection", more like God allowing these tools to be constructed for the purpose of temptation and testing and these beings salivating for a soul to corrupt receiving legal authority to do so because you were a prick and disobeyed an express commandment and deserve it....

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Who told you that? In 'elder days' magicians, men who could heal, bring about good fortune, and command spirits in an age when possession was waaaay more common and there was virtually no solid science to guide the peoples' crazy opinions about how the world works didn't get out of hand, magicians were holy men, revered in most places as being closer to God, and having a better knowledge of his will - in fact, it was believed in judaic (i.e. where christ came from) that the knowledge of God was sacred and could only be attained by holy men. Look at all of the grimoires that were spawned from those roots - all of them require extensive measures to purify oneself and be 'close to god'. Now that doesn't necessarily men that being close to God is what makes that work - although who's to say what it means to be close to God? - but it does mean that the original perspective was one of reverence and the appreciation of Godliness, not in dark pagan rituals and burning on sight. That didn't come around for thousands of years.

Also, as a former devout christian myself who eventually left because of the corruption of what was originally a decent message, I would remind you that there are only ten commandments that, as a christian, constitute your agreement with God through Christ. If you're jewish, now that could be another matter but I don't know. Christ, though, said that his covenant was the new covenant. "Keep my father's commandments and this..." I forget which extra one he included, but it hadn't anything to do with the occult. In fact, Christ and a few other figures command spirits in the bible several times, so what makes you think you're damning yourself by looking into this?

so I'm not trying ANYTHING, anytime soon. Nope. I'm leaving this for the time being. Maybe later when I don't have family to worry about.

Good idea, right now you're waaaay to emotionally messed up to take this seriously, and unleashing these sorts of things when you're still so easy to manipulate will probably ruin your life for good. As much as you're a christian, you don't seem to have a whole lot of faith that God will protect you - what did you think that faith was supposed to be used for anyway? What do you think Faith is? Until you figure that out, best to keep a distance.

However, opening your mind and doing a little research and reflection, will probably do you a lot of good. Try some of the other grimoires. The Arbatel, or maybe the Enochian systems, might look better to you than the Goetia, and as others have said, deal with different classes of entities.

peace

Too dangerous. Might as well walk in a lion den. Not worth it.