Religions Options

Is magick ok for other religions because I am a very strong christian.
PS. to mods, if this is in the wrong place, I'm sorry, and please correct me.

Greetings,

The question whether Magic(k) is OK or used in Other Religious Practices, is in my opinion, a valid question.

Almost every Religion of the World, including, Christianity contains some evidence of Magic(k) and its usage. Consider that in Judaism which is the Foundation of Christianity, as is the Old Testament to the New Testament, that when the Isralites were taken captive into Babylon it is stated that there were four Israelites among the captives that were wiser than all the Magicians and Astrologers of the Chaldeans.

These four Hebrews were Shadrack, Mescheck and Abednego, the Prophet Daniel was placed over much of the Babylonian Kingdom since it is stated of him that he had a greater understanding of all the Magicians, Priests and Astrologers in Babylon. It is claimed that he had understanding of All Dark Sentences. This to me indicates that he understood Hidden (Dark) sayings that were Magickal and Allegorical as well.

If you want to take one word Magickal and describe it, the description could include Mystical, or "Mystery." The Roman Catholic Church which is claimed to be the oldest Church following the ways of the Christian Teachings found in the Holy Bible, perform a Rite called Mass. In Mass they perform a Mystery or, it could be described as a Magickal Rite of Turning the Wine and Bread to the Literal Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. This Mystery is done using Ceremony or Rites passed down through centuries. The Rite itself is called Transubstantiation - which is considered one of the Most Holy and Sacred Rites of Catholics today.

These are just a couple of instnaces of the use of Magick, or Mystery of the Religions of Judaism and Christianity.

Respectfully,
Helel (Joseph)

P.S. This is not meant as a message of conversion, or as prosylitizing, I felt I could give a reasonable explanation to a Younger Members Qualified and Sincere Question.

In addition to Joseph's observation that magick exists basically in all religions already, I wanted to share my logic on the marriage of 'standard relgion' and 'occult practices' specifically, from their respective locations in the social tapestry.

For one thing, by and large the occult is not religious - so there is ultimately very little that will actually conflict with most religions, once you get around things like godforms, deity worship, etc., which are an aspect of some occult paths.

The really great aspect of the Occult as a total philosophy, albeit interpreted from many different angles, is that it has by its very nature many different levels of applicable interpretation. The process of actualizing magick in any form, the mythology, the symbolism, all of it serves to explain processes in our minds, in our hearts, and in our society and world, and theorizes on how to use those processes to our advantage. This philosophy opens the mind to accept whatever level of possibility it is capable of accepting. If you will only accept that change only happens in the mind, and that all other change begins there, then that is your scope of possibility, and it stands perfectly out of the way of religion.

As a personal note on why this question is asked in the first place, I don't intend to aggravate anyone's sensibilities but so that there is plenty of perspective available, here it is.

Many religions, IMO christianity especially, in all its permutations, has a system of teachings built into it by those people who have passed the power down through the generations of popes, bishops, etc., establishing cannon which inhibits their followers from accepting occult teaching as part of their worldview, not because they believe it to be evil (or maybe not originally, who knows what they think now, eventually a lie can become the truth, it's origins omitted by those who would see it propagate in the following generations) but because it keeps their followers narrow minded and therefor easy to control. A religion isn't just a system of morality to help people live better lives, it's a political powerhouse, with sometimes hundreds of millions of individuals who may disagree on a whole lot but are bound by their common link and will therefore band together against anything threatening that collective belief system. What's more, those a the top of that system can exploit it to their advantage.

The prevalence of occult knowledge will continue to expand, and with any luck most religions will become relics of a savage past as human kind evolves physically, socially, and spiritually. I guess we'll see.

Ultimately, the secrets found within the magickal experience are the important elements to take away from any occult exploration, brief or extended. The landscape is presented differently to everyone, but the journey can often be very similar in it's 'stages', becoming a nearly universal path of self-exploration and expanded awareness that is neutral in regards to any dogma isolating the unseen world into any trite shape or structure. Therefore, while your transformation may result in a boredom with christianity, it does not require in any way that you leave it behind, assuming you can understand what principles in your religion are beneficial, and which are malignant. Exploring the occult can offer a lot of opportunities to learn the difference.

peace

I think the only way to know if practicing magick while following a specific religion is to ask an expert - like a priest - if its ok to practice magick. We sit here and debate about it all we want and we can bring up many valid ideas about why or why not it is ok. However if one believes in a certain faith then they likely believe that the proper authority of that faith is a priest(ess). Now unless you tell us exactly what your religion is and a priest of your faith comes onto this forum and gives you anwser I don't think any of us are an authority to tell you for certain one way or the other.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/00000008.gif) True that. You wouldn't be much of a catholic if you didn't trust your priest, now would you?

Greetings Acid 09,

I speak for myself in this and not for the other's who have responded to the orignial posters question about Magick and Religion. When someone enters a discussion group, the whole concept is to discuss the beliefs of others, and compare them with our own experience, or beliefs.

In a discussion forum I had the impression that, discussing questions is the purpose of such a group. It does not mean any of us are expert authorities in any specific field, yet, when someone asks a legitimate question in a Group Forum, I believe they are asking for a general consensus answer.

I do believe all of us have an belief, and many of us have certain experience(s) that we can share in a way that it may help another to come to their own conclusion, whether it be in agreement with our viewpoint or completely different.


And in my personal opinion the True Authority of any Religion or Belief is Each One of Its Adherants, not just a Priest/Priestess with a mindless flock following them that never question Life for themselves.

This post is not meant in anger or dispute, I am merely demonstrating that Each of us have a voice, and a mind of our own, and our opinions do matter. Especially in a Group Forum where we are encouraged to respond.

Respectfully,
Helel (Joseph)

Well im not a catholic, but i would call myself a christian. And catholics are christians, or are they? Are thelemites crowleyans? Anyway...

I think acid09 and joseph are bothing hitting good points. If you are a strict baptist lets say, and you have chosen to follow all the creeds of the baptist faith, and one of them is that magick is a big no no (i dont know if it is for baptists or not, i just uised the name as an example - no offence to baptists or thelemites, but i might just as well have said thelemites), then if you do practice magick then you are either no longer really a baptist, or you are no longer practicing magick. If you wish to satisfy the specific creeds of your church and therefore your faith, then it would be wise to consult your priest about what is and isnt allright with them.

If like many christians you are not bound by any other than your own interpretation of what youve read an heard, then it is solely up to you to make your own decisions. After all being a christian is about following the techings of jesus christ - not the teachings of father bob mcklintock from bumfuch idaho. There are many "christian" churches around the world who support their members in developing their own "personal" interpretation of jesus' teachings, and some even the use of esoteric practices, as long as they arent using it to justify stuff that is beyond the realms of common sense. I dont know what they are like anywhere else, but in australia the Unitarian Church is one that would count itself fundamentally as being christian, but welcomes and enjoys the regular attendance of people from every different faith imaginable, and are all their to support each others spiritual paths. The unitarian church in sydney australia is where the local Builders of the Adytum meet, hold classes, and it is also used as their temple for performing ceremonial magick and initiations (aren't us aussies creative).

So you see it really is dependent like joseph said on your own interpretation of what jesus taught if you are a "christian" and not a "mcklintockian", but if your interpretaion leads you to believe that you should act based on what the priest of your church says, and there is by no means anything wrong with this, as long as their isnt anything wrong with the priest, then you should probably like acid09 said ask his or her advice. You never know they might be Paul Foster Case reincarnated!!!!

If you are a Christian Majic is a no go. Christianity in all its "wisdom" does not accept majic. Miracles yes majic no way.
I mean sure you can wonder around and practice majic or shamanism,mysticism,sorcery,wicca whatever and call yourself a christian but you will never be accepted by a true christian society.
This applies to catholics also majic is unacceptable. Its amazin how christianity can preech tolerance and love but they have slaughtered more pagans in history than anyone. In fact the reason its hard to find some esoteric materials is because much of it was destroyed by the black brotherhood (christians) Than you have the inquisition and Salem so heck no majic is not accepted in christianity ot catholicism.

This post has been edited by Enochian: Dec 4 2006, 10:48 AM

Enochians comments here are not entirtely correct. Although most christian churches would say that magick is a no go, there are a few, one of which i pointed out in my post that do allow "magick". But then those people do not view magick as being magickal so to speak, and that it is just using parts of the brain that many dont. You dont have to communicate with spirits to do magick, and often what enocjian would describe as miracle working, is simply magick. Some of christianity's greatest saints performed magick under the guise of "miracles". They just always attributed these miracles to the power of "god", working through them. I think it would be arrogant of me to suggest that my own magick was anything other than this. But then the point is i suppose that yes, most mainstream christian churches would say that magick is wrong. But then it was only mid last century that the catholic church very privately published their findings that acknowledged that mary magdolin was not a prostitute. My point being that a true christian will weigh anything the priest says against what jesus says. Jesus talks about not dealing with evil spirits, but he says nothing against communicating with angels, or against allowing and encouraging the power of god to work through you in a good way as he did, in fact some would interpret his teachings as saying that he reccommends it. In the end though as jesus taught, you have reason and choice. Seek your answers within yourself, only there will you get the right ones.

"Youve got to go to the lonesome valley,
Nobody can go there for you,
Youve got to go there by yourself."

I would have to agree with extinctionspasm.

I'm a christian, and i study, and may start practicing, magick.

If you would, for a moment think on this: if we were to, say, replace the words "Spells" with "Prayers" and "Magick" with "Miracles", what would you think? I know this has already been touched on, but i'd have to say that magick is not so far-fetched when it comes to being a christian. I have experienced "miracles" myself. Minor things mostly, like passing a PT test (Army physical fitness test), making good grades and one major one: surviving a serious car wreck. Do i believe it was magick? Sure, you could call it that, perhaps magick that God used to protect me and give me strength, but i wouldnt aruge against calling it "magick" or "miracles", they seem to be very much alike.

Thats just my .02, as usual.

=)

Tiac

First of all prayer is not majic. A mage does no work through the power of god he works through the power of the earth. It is made by god. Second when the saints perform miracles that is not majic by the way that was at the beggining of christianity and excpted than. Third the bible specifically states over and over again that if you are a practicing sorcerer or mage that you are NOT in gods good graces. There is very little argument here from a christian point of view. The bible says no and if you disbelieve the bible you are not a christian.
All im saying here is it is unaccepted if you disagree go see your pastor or priest and see what they have to tell you. The conversation is not going to go well.
Prayer and miracles are far from a practicing majician. And to use prayer in such a way is a blasphemy the bible says so.
You want to know more about majic and christianity look into Simon the magus.


"There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.


Lev. 19:26 "`Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it. "`Do not practice divination or sorcery. 27"`Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard [similar to the men from the pagan nations]. 28"`Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD. 29"`Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness. 30"`Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the LORD. 31"`Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God. 32"`Rise in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the LORD.

Deut. 4:19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars --all the heavenly array --do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

Deut. 17:2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, 3and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, 4and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. 6On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. 7The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.
Deut. 18:9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13You must be blameless before the LORD your God. 14The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so. 15The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.

Christianity to me is a blashemy and the bible has been changed so many times that its not even able to be read without saying one thing than later saying the exact opposite. In revelations John uses lucid dreaming almost the entire book. But here is never any negative. Solomon himself was a great mage and mystic and dreamer yet his book is in the bible. Contradictions are everywhere.
But try and tell ANY christian in this day and age that you are wiccan or any occult related person and it will not be accepted.

Read about Enoch and how that book is left out of the bible (by ruling people) because they teech of majic and herbology and well many reasons. Dont fool yourselves no occult practice is accepted by christians (black brotherhood) yet most of there religous days and even weddings are pagan traditons. Foolishness

This post has been edited by Enochian: Dec 5 2006, 12:29 PM

Levicticus is still in the Church canon. It details on how to make a proper sacrifice to God. It even talks about setting up an alter. When people donate to the church they are making a sacrifice to have their sins absolved. When people are baptized they under go ritual. First communion, confermation, excorsism, confession, daily prayers, self mortifaction, absolution, the last rites, excommunication, hell why not even the holy eucharist, and probably a few others I forgot about, are all Christian rituals. They are carried out because the Church tells its followers its what they need to do to live good, prosperous, christian lives to avoid eternal damnation and gain a seat in heaven. Then there's the various Christain holidays that embody the Christain mythos.

All of this, in my humble opinion, seems pretty "cultish", "mystical" umm... "magickal", but thats just me. Besides the topic isn't about what magick is. Its about is it ok to pracitice magick as a devote Christain. Which in my opinion, based on my up bringing, practicing any kind of ritual, weather its magickal or not, with intent to create "magickal" change that goes against accepted church dogma is a no no.

Now if you'rea devote unitarian thats where you can hit enough grey area that one might be able to justify incorperating ritual magick into their lives.

I think the aparent discrepancy between arguments here lies in the difference between mainstream orthodox christianity, and a more inclusive christianity, which is based on the teachings of jesus in all its documented forms. Which uses logic and reason to pick out the recurring themes of jesus's techings to get at what was being taught. For many of these seemingly contradictory ppoints of view it is merely a case of semantics. Of how do you, and how did the qotes afore mentioned define magick? I for myself am a christian and i do not worship the sun or the moon or any other than god himself. But that is not to say that i will disregard the sun or the moon, or that if i feel that either of these attempt to comunicatre with me, that i shall not hear them. Just as if love my wife it does not mean that i worship her. As if i love my neighbour the way jesus taught that i am in some way worshiping false prophets. I enjoy music, art literature, and beauty, and i see all these as forms of worship to god, and by enjoying and observing others worshiping, am i then no longer worshipping? No. There are many ways that with a closed interpretation of peoples writings you could deem them to mean something a lot less like what they intended. It is easy to to be brought up and guided into a manipulated mode of interpretation, and if you have pre conceptions, and dont take a text at face value, then it is easy to be guided by your pre conceptions. Any way it is pointless for me to argue. I can say that for myself, if a christian told me that they were using magick in a way that did not compromise the teachings of jesus christ (whos are the teachings that a "christian" follows - hence christ-ian), and was being used for altruistic purposes in terms of themselves and others, then i would say to them that i beleive that that is ok. But that i am in no way more of an authority than a priest, as they are no more of an authority than me. We both have access to the same books. But unlike many of them, i have read the book of enoch, and the gospel of thomas, and that of mary, and stil it is useless for us to compare our interpretaions for you. Only you can make up your own mind. In listening to two opposing points of view, in the end it is still up to you to "decide" which you agree with. God gave us free wil, and a choice. This ability to choose goes far beyond the duality of good and evil. And this should always be remembered when anyone is trying to tell you that something is good or evil.

Dont get me wrong guys. I believe that anything goes. I believe that god meant for us to find out as much as possible and that magic and all asociated or occult learning is ok. But the Majority norm is that magic is not ok and actually from a Christian point of view nothing but what they say is ok. It seems to me to be rather hipocritical to say love, believe in god, but if you dont do it our way you will go to hell and suffer for eternity. You really thing god in his love for us is going to send you to eternity of damnation for makeing mistakes in this life? Man if so than i want no part of it.
I think the "punishment fits the crime" really. If you are hitler than you suffer for a long time if you are someone who works on sunday than you willl get the proverbial slap on the hand. If you practice magic or as i do sorcery and shamanism but stilll have a very strong belief in god and that Jesus did die for us than what is the problem with that? I also believe that mohamed is the savior of the muslims so? Did jesus have time to traverse the entire world? why cant most bibles be correct as long as you believe? All this nonsense about muslims are terrorists and what not is silly. Yes they are but not all of them. It seems to me the overwhelming amount of people that break the rules and that are warmongers and liars and rule our country and world with and iron glove at this point. Claim to be christian. Majic is no differant. As a dreamer i travel places and do things out of the norm. But i dont do anything that i normally would not, Just because i have the power to while dreaming. I dont go and rob or rape or kill in the dream world just as i would not here. Even though i could all "night" because there are no laws there i choose not to. My belief is practice majic but dont do things that are against the ten commandment or the seven deadly sins and you will be fine. Truly much of the bible as i said has been revised revisited and changed by "ruling people and kings" to fit the be a sheep attitude they want us to live by. Would you let the presnt rulers of the world revise the bible? so whay would we back than? Because there was no choice thats why.

This post has been edited by Enochian: Dec 6 2006, 12:49 PM

Greetings,

This is a really interesting discussion.

I’ll be brief with my thoughts. I think a big misconception is that Magic is a religion … it is not. It is a science that studies the laws of cause and effect (whether you draw “power” from God or Nature is irrelevant). As such it can be incorporated into any religion. We must remember that yes the Church looked down on Magic, but at one time it also frowned upon many other sciences (astronomy, chemistry, etc.). As has been posted, in the end it is a matter of personal choice – if you are comfortable working Magic in your religious tradition than by all means do it.

It is my vain and arrogant opinion that the last two posts were excellent, and combined should help anyone come up with a simple answer to the question raised here: well done guys!!!

Yeah its interestin what you said here faustopheles. Pondering on that and the ramifications of it made me aware of some prejudices i have within myself wich are kind of crap. I realised that i dislike it in others when they make magick a part of their religion, or at least present it in a way that they cannot be seperated, as if each relies on the other (i often have this complaint about satanists and pagans to name a few). But then i realised that really, i am just as guilty as anyone else of allowing my magick to become a religious experience, and i despite my best efforts to rationalise my denials, am also just as guilty of allowing the two (religion and magick) to become co-dependant. I then noticed that in reality, despite my attempts to publicly give the impression of being able to separate religion from any other part of my life, lets use mathematics as an example, i cant help but allow my experience of anything "mental" become intertwined with spirituality. At the same time though i complain when courts make decisions seemingly based on their spiritual beliefs, rather than the intellect of the law. Now i am left with the most important question, for me anyway, that has come out of this. That is, is it ok for all my intellectual endeavours and workings to be influenced by and intertwined with my spiritual beliefs, and also just as importantly vice versa; is it ok for my spiritual life to be influenced by my intellect (these arent worded correctly and they seem a little minute in comparison to how they feel, but i cant be bothered trying to figure out now how exactly the questions should be phrased). These are questions which i think need a fair bit of contemplation and consideration, it would be to easy and silly to jump to a quick conclusion here. Thanks for helping me to get to this point faustopheles and enochian especially. It feels like for me this is a bit of a personal pandoras box, which i cant wait to go and begin to open!!!!

This post has been edited by extinctionspasm: Dec 6 2006, 07:59 PM

I'd like to point this out:

Matthew 22:35-37:
One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

If you really want a good look at christianity, may i suggest "The Barbarian Way" by Erwin McManus. It's not a "religious" book, per se, but it is very logical and practical.

Also, the only place i've seen the term "witchcraft" (for my instance) in the New Testament was in Galatians, written by Paul. It's Galatians Chapter 5, if you wish to have a look (Galatians 5: 20 more specifically, but i prefer to read the bible in context, as it tends to help one understand)

And i never stated that I called miracles "magic", or prayers "spells", i simply stated that one, not me, could theoretically replace or interchange these words, if looking at it objectivley.


Tiac

This post has been edited by TiacSway: Dec 6 2006, 11:00 PM

In my opinion prayer is magick. You shouldn't need to pray for miracles if your "faith", which is the cornerstone of religion is pure. Prfayer should only be to give thanks and to worship and honour for a truly faithful person (in that respect), so any prayer involved with a request is a form of magick, if you believe that your request would not have been granted if you hadn't asked for it.

But its still all semantics really. I say tomato and you say tomato. There is a scene in planet of the apes where whats his name says "let go of me you stupid monkey" and it turns to him and yells "we are not monkeys - we are apes". But for the french the word for minkeys and apes is the same - its "le sange". So if your watching planet of the apes in france marky mark says "let go of me you stupid sange", and the ape replies "we are not sange - we are sange", and the french audiences all nod to each other and say "excellent point". I think you see what i mean. This rule of philology or semantics or whatever works both ways. Anyway....

In my opinion prayer is magick. You shouldn't need to pray for miracles if your "faith", which is the cornerstone of religion is pure. Prfayer should only be to give thanks and to worship and honour for a truly faithful person (in that respect), so any prayer involved with a request is a form of magick, if you believe that your request would not have been granted if you hadn't asked for it.

But its still all semantics really. I say tomato and you say tomato. There is a scene in planet of the apes where whats his name says "let go of me you stupid monkey" and it turns to him and yells "we are not monkeys - we are apes". But for the french the word for minkeys and apes is the same - its "le sange". So if your watching planet of the apes in france marky mark says "let go of me you stupid sange", and the ape replies "we are not sange - we are sange", and the french audiences all nod to each other and say "excellent point". I think you see what i mean. This rule of philology or semantics or whatever works both ways. Anyway....

Prayer and magick are not exactly the same. Prayer is "asking" spirits to do your will, whilst magick is "doing your will" "Do what thou wilt". Magick is an action or effort undertaken because of a personal need to effect change. Prayer is a negligible hope or chance. Infact I personally frown upon prayer as it goes against any reason why I would practice magick, its what the Church wants YOU to do, to ask not to commit to. A prayer can also be associated with a thoughtform which is in need for a "deliverer" (in the christian sense, an Angel), to deliver it, and of course you have no power over that. Now Magick is using your thoughtform and turning it into your will.

Thought + Desire + Will = Magick (if i remember correctly)

Just by stating the above you are already succumbing to what the traditional bible says and what is expected of you in the Christian sense.

This post has been edited by DeathStalker: Dec 7 2006, 03:37 AM

dude, where the hell were all of you when I posted this thread? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) lol

http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=2720

Anyway, magic and religion are intertwined of that theirs no doubt. One might say that the social church doesn't accept magic, but why would I listen to the mindless cattle of conformity? I think anyone who chooses to take time and consider the truth will find that it's very 'christian' and very 'muslim' and so on and so forth to practice magic.

dude, where the hell were all of you when I posted this thread? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) lol

http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=2720

Anyway, magic and religion are intertwined of that theirs no doubt. One might say that the social church doesn't accept magic, but why would I listen to the mindless cattle of conformity? I think anyone who chooses to take time and consider the truth will find that it's very 'christian' and very 'muslim' and so on and so forth to practice magic.

The roots of religion come from "magick" and spirituality, but what happens when there is a monotheistic religion which keeps their grounds by saying there is a heaven and hell and if you do not succumb to what the Bible says you will burn in Hell?

Do you seriously think that the Christian church wants people to learn magick? what happens when the people learn necromancy or mediumship (communication with the dead)? How are they to have ANY power by rule when their heaven/hell is proven false in that many people don't believe it?

Muslims and Christians are hearded enough not to practice magick (for the Bible and Quran condemn it). Why? because some greedy egotisticals who want the power to themselves don't want us to have that power. Besides Christ healed the blind and saw the future, which makes him "the son of god", so why should religion allow us to seek that power and see that their teachings are half-arsed crap?

Who runs American politics? Christians right? How often in Western (primarly American) Society is it that you are most oft to find spiritualism in schools and the work? Free masons did not accomplish their ordeals.

If you think that Spiritual Christians are "Christian", then atleast say that you're either inventing a new word or they are a totally different religion. Islam, Judiasm, and Christianity condemn magick/spiritual practice for all the same reason.

Maybe I did not fully understand what you meant in the link you sent and the point you were trying to make; if so, disregard my prattle.

This post has been edited by DeathStalker: Dec 7 2006, 07:04 AM

The roots of Christianity come from paganism. It does not make a pagan ok in the eyes of a christian.

I would use prayer before an astral journey to ask god to protect me and my family. I would use majic to create a circle of protection around myself and i would use energy and meditation to enter the astral. The point is that we all have a gift of one kind or another. The very last thing i would ever want to do is start squibbleing and argueing about any of this among occultists. The christian religion (all religions) have already done a wonderful job of segregating, categorizeing, and KILLING anyone that has not followed there belief. In my opinion with the short time we have left i want nothing more than to see all occultists of all kinds co-exist and not worry where there ability came from but how they will use it to affect the world and make ourselves strong for the comeing of the new age. Abrahadabra my friends.

The roots of Christianity come from paganism. It does not make a pagan ok in the eyes of a christian.

I would use prayer before an astral journey to ask god to protect me and my family. I would use majic to create a circle of protection around myself and i would use energy and meditation to enter the astral. The point is that we all have a gift of one kind or another. The very last thing i would ever want to do is start squibbleing and argueing about any of this among occultists. The christian religion (all religions) have already done a wonderful job of segregating, categorizeing, and KILLING anyone that has not followed there belief. In my opinion with the short time we have left i want nothing more than to see all occultists of all kinds co-exist and not worry where there ability came from but how they will use it to affect the world and make ourselves strong for the comeing of the new age. Abrahadabra my friends.

I agree.

There are many people to this day who have been blinded by religions such as this, practically "big cults". Its why we as occultists must also strive for a new world order, else their powers and effects will only sinew.

Greetings DeathStalker,

The hypocrisy which causes you to dislike Christianity is the same with any institutionalized belief system (Islam, Democracy, etc.). When one group of people has the power to judge what is moral or what is legal they are immediately restricting the bestial nature of man so that the masses can be controlled. This is the time tested formula that turns social chaos into order. I know you agree with this, so don’t you think that we should preach a New World “Dis”order instead??? LOL

Disorder is fine as long as it is no longer the plague thats called homeland security spreading its no longer democratic word. We the people is such a joke.

As i said before language is a funny thing. We can mean exactly the same thing as someone else and due to the fact that we choos different combinations of words, we convince eachother that we are disagreeing. Yet the vision that we base the symbol of language on, is in fact very similar. This is why we who practice magick need to at all times be conscious of what the symbols symbolise. It is easy with simple maths to prove that you cannot hit a golf ball. Yet we all know that we can.

The roots of christianity lie in the words and actions of Jesus Christ. On what he based his teachings is all purely speculation. The dogma and doctrine that is preached by employees of many churches today, ie priests, is based on more than just the techings of jesus christ, in fact often these take a second place to torahdic first testament teachings, much of which jesus said was old hat, and was to be disregarded and replaced by the new spiritual paradigm that he preached.

Anyway there are many who feel or at least observe the effects of false doctrine that is currently preached in the name of "christianity", and on this basis christianity is often condemned. It should be remembered though that there are many out there who claim to be occultists that are realy just full of crap, and couldnt tell an aethyr from an ahswhole, yet we dont then assume that all occultism is then boolschit. No we realise that there are pople who twist and manipulate the words of since passed great people, and use them to their own advantage. But we should not assume then that all who agree with the words of such a person, agree with the manipulated contemporary interpretations of their words. Rather we should not insult our own intellects, by lowering ourselves to the same level who believe everything they are told, and not assume that all who are told believe, or that they have the same interpretation. Philosophy classes at unis wouldnt exist if we allowed ourselves to be informed with so little investigation or critique.

Anyway, i think that everyone so far in this conversation, has a sinilar view of the way the world is now, and where we think it should be, i may be wrong but i think we have let semantics get in the way a bit - but this is to be expected among intelligent people. Its good to know that people actually read what you write and think about it.

And so in response to death stalker thanks for your rebuff on my ideas about prayer. In a way i agree with you but the way i would say it though is that:

Thought + Desire + Will = Prayer; but

Though + Desire + Will + Consciousness (that we are utilising the previous; and of the self; and more) = Magick

But again this may all be just another case of semantics. Anyway im glad this forum exists. Its good to be able to have a decent conversation about this stuff with people who arent just pretending to know what they are talking about. Thanks!!!!

Greetings DeathStalker,

The hypocrisy which causes you to dislike Christianity is the same with any institutionalized belief system (Islam, Democracy, etc.). When one group of people has the power to judge what is moral or what is legal they are immediately restricting the bestial nature of man so that the masses can be controlled. This is the time tested formula that turns social chaos into order. I know you agree with this, so don’t you think that we should preach a New World “Dis”order instead??? LOL

I give thanks to the teachings of my good friend "Friedrich Nietzsche", he helped open many peoples' minds and eyes. Our beliefs would closely be related to that of Anarchy, which many great philosophers inspired themselves, however this does not seem to be the place to discuss this.

Yes Disorder is essentially what "freedom" of the masses comes down to.

I dont think disorder really needs to be. As long as the majority of people decide the outcome of things in a true democratic style. but yes far enough off topic.

Religion and magic at least from what ive learned mix well. In fact many religions are all about dreaming and the practice. Religion has its place also. Anything to help this world realize what spirit is and help realize death is not the end and is not evil.

I dont think disorder really needs to be. As long as the majority of people decide the outcome of things in a true democratic style. but yes far enough off topic.

On the contrary - order implies that every individual agrees on the guidelines enforced by the whole. There will probably never be 100% unanimous agreement on any order of law or morality. Disorder is an element of nature, the Chaos within Systems, and is an immutable law of reality. If it weren't we'd run the risk of grinding to a halt.

peace

Yes you got me on that one friend in that case ANARCHY RULES.....
I guess i delve to much into the conspiracy side sometimes and think to myself such things as how stupid is it to have 12 idiots decide weather or not i spend the rest of my life in jail? Or how friggin stupid is Homeland security? It just seems if i explained all my thoughts on homeland the general senses would be hay you control enough now go away. I want everyone to be happy i guess but im sure someone will always find things to whine about. So as said ANARCHY is the truest freedom.

This post has been edited by Enochian: Dec 10 2006, 07:31 PM