What Is It Capable Of? Options

I'm relatively new to the serious study of magick. I've been reading some of the works of Aleister Crowley, Gerald del Campo, and other thelemists. After reading about thelema, I'm left with the distinct impession that magickal workings are, in practice, essentially useless. All of the claims of "magickal" happenings seem to be spiritual and introverted in nature. They seem to be a means to better understand one's self, much like buddhist forms of philosophy and mysticism. Here is what I want to know: What are the actualy practical applications of magick? Is it possible for magick to effect dramatic, tangible change in a subject outside of the practitioners own mind? What kind of changes can be observed?

After reading about thelema, I'm left with the distinct impession that magickal workings are, in practice, essentially useless.

All of the claims of "magickal" happenings seem to be spiritual and introverted in nature.

These two statements next to one another suggest a lack of spirituality in your perspective, if I may offer my own take on it. I could be wrong. ultimately, though, you're going to die, right? Probably, anyway. So, what will you take with you aside from your spiritual developement...? Material gain is temporary, but spiritual knowledge is the gateway to immortality.

What are the actualy practical applications of magick? Is it possible for magick to effect dramatic, tangible change in a subject outside of the practitioners own mind? What kind of changes can be observed?

Magick is mastery over the will's ability to manifest. The possibilities are litterally endless, and they expand as you progress. Originally my will could manifest a good night's sleep, intelligent thought, creative inspiration. Then I grew, and it was able to manifest synchronicity in my life. I grew some more, learned to suspend my sense of reason for moments at a time, and my will was able to manifest changes in weather, change a stop light from red to green prematurely, or channel inspiration to another. Lately I've been able to influence my own causal current to intersect with clients for my practice, meaningful lessons in the world around me, and open me up to new areas of my consciousness.

I've seen people change moods instantly with just a little energy, I've seen headaches disappear, a torrent of rain stop at a word, a dry day turn into a stormy one in under an hour, a barrier that prevented anyone with ill intentions from entering an ashram, a toothpick roll uphill on a tilted desk at the exertion of my will power. I've seen lots of things subtle and physical. I haven't witnessed what most would call a miracle, but then again, maybe I have and just didn't notice.

All of those things, and the accomplishments I have personally wrought, are pointless beyond proving that my consciousness and the world around me are not as seperate as I was trained to believe after i was born. The value of that understanding is beyond any other ability, even turning base metals into gold.

Of course, that's my own perspective, and others are more materially centered. There's no way to prove who's got the right idea and who doesn't, and really, it doesn't matter. Your own journey, what you learn from it, what you put into it, how it affects your ability to live life, that's all that matters.

peace

I've seen people change moods instantly with just a little energy, I've seen headaches disappear, a torrent of rain stop at a word, a dry day turn into a stormy one in under an hour, a barrier that prevented anyone with ill intentions from entering an ashram, a toothpick roll uphill on a tilted desk at the exertion of my will power. I've seen lots of things subtle and physical. I haven't witnessed what most would call a miracle, but then again, maybe I have and just

Ok. This is what I'm trying to clarify. All of those phenomena you described can be explained through mundane means or coincidence, except perhaps the barrier preventing people from entering a room based on their intentions. How do you know that what you experienced is not simply the result of coincidence? How do you know that magick caused it?

Bear in mind that I'm not trying to say that you're wrong. I'm just asking these questions so that I can better understand the subject. It's very difficult for me to accept things without a logical explanation. I question everything I see. I abandoned christianity because of it's illogical nature. I don't want to jump feet first into a new illogical dogma. I want to know what I'm getting into.

Ok. This is what I'm trying to clarify. All of those phenomena you described can be explained through mundane means or coincidence, except perhaps the barrier preventing people from entering a room based on their intentions. How do you know that what you experienced is not simply the result of coincidence? How do you know that magick caused it?

Magick causes coincidence. Two things happen with a percieved causal relationship - we call it coincidence. Wether that means that I caste a spell for abundance and afterwards get an opportunity to make a lot of money, or I will for a bowl of soup to feed a family of people and it does. Either way its a coincidence.
Mundane means are the way the universe works. But what governs the apparent randomness of so many aspects of existence? Most mathematicians will tell you there is no randomness, just a system too complex to see the order in. Magick takes advantage of that system, the interaction between our consciousness and the universe.
I know that magick caused it because when the 'key moment' occurs to bring my magick into fruition, I know. it is silent knowledge, a sudden clarity that this action now will cause this reaction then. People who cast magick for love and then sit around at home waiting for their soul mate to knock on their door frequently end up either waiting forever or falling in love with the milkman.
Living a magickal lifestyle is about manifesting coincidence, among other things. It is using ones will to align a cause with an effect. Chemicals will act differently under different environments, chemical interactions can be affected based on the different energies applied to them - heat, radiation, light, etc. - the fact that under specific circumstance a particular event will occur, is simply consistent coincidence. Coincidence - root word, coincide, happening at the same time or in apparent relation to one another. How can you prove there is a relationship? How can you prove there isn't? I can produce consistent coincidences. Doesn't that make my magick as real as the reaction between vinegar and baking soda?

Bear in mind that I'm not trying to say that you're wrong. I'm just asking these questions so that I can better understand the subject. It's very difficult for me to accept things without a logical explanation. I question everything I see. I abandoned christianity because of it's illogical nature. I don't want to jump feet first into a new illogical dogma. I want to know what I'm getting into.

I'm not going to tell you you're wrong for wanting to hold onto logic - in fact, it's good to maintain that part of the mind. but, it's simply one part of the mind. Not all of consciousness is logical, nor is all of the world. There is logic and there is chaos. You can think logically or you can think abstractly, ad you should learn to balance the two. Part of magick is the ability to suspend your logic, your reason, in order to open up your mind to allow change to happen. Logic is for analysis and cognition, not creation - that requires creativity, which is something different.

The mistake so many people who would rather stick with science and logic make, is to devote themselves entirely to logic and reason while supressing creativty and abstract thought. You create your world. If you want one without magick, you'll have it - most people do. You can shrug off coincidence as meaningless, or you can apply your logic to analyzing the pattern of coincidence in your life. Assume that it is a phenomenon which happens - and, it clearly is - and approach it from that direction, rather than file it away as a pointless peculiarity of perception.

it doesn't mean to abandon scientific, logical thought - I apply the scientific method to all of my magick. I identify a phenomenon, attempt to reproduce it under various conditions, develope a hypothesis of it's functionality, and test and retest until I have a solid magickal theory. I check for corralories amongst the other theories I've read or developed, and test those. It's a process of expanding one's definition of logical thought. Is the belief that magick and coincidence are linked illogical? Isn't it more logical to belief in an inherent connection between all things? Isn't that what we're learning through pure scientific research now?

Abandon dogma all together. Scientific, religious, magickal, all of it. Don't go looking for logical dogma, dogma just means 'box of beliefs' and no matter how big your box is, it has limited space inside it. better not to have a box at all.

peace