Tried And True Formula Or Universal Psychological Mechanism?, My Gods made your Gods up. Options

So, this topic is intended to be a battleground for the various viewpoints on what magick is - do you accept a reality of Deities, Spirits, and beings outside yourself on a hierarchy of power that you are destined to either climb or fall short of? Or do you believe in a reality where the mind can use whatever structure it needs in order to manifest apparent results? Are those results caused by a literal magickal energy which effects change, or do we 'psych' ourselves into expecting and accepting the results we get? I want to focus largely on gods and entities, and their existence as objective reality or subjective enforcement.

I'm not arguing to the validity of magickal practice - if it works, it's valid. Rather, I intend to gather some opinions on what it is that's really happening when we do magick.

To start off with, here's what I think about a few things.

First of all, I can't deny that magickal things happen - a successful spell, a warped reality trip through my mind, prophetic and meaningful dreams; it's all pretty magickal to me, so for me magick is certainly real. What I have always had issues with, and honestly some rather ambivalent experiences with, are spirits and Gods, 'Beings' which imply a hierarchy within the total spiritual sphere. But, this model of gods, spirits, etc., smacks of mythology to me.

In following a magickal tradition, we're told that certain formulae of symbols and symbolic acts - often interpreted as literally causing the magickal 'effect' in question - and so in many cases, they do. When it fails, we're told we didn't believe enough, didn't have the focus, or the power, etc. But, every tradition gets some results from someone. Take chaos magick practitioners especially, who simply slap together some compatible, and sometimes incompatible, traditional tidbits and turn them into workable magick.

So, clearly the magickal tradition itself isn't what's getting the results. But, if this is true, then what about the mythologies that those traditions base much of their philosophy and practice on?

At first I was thinking that perhaps individual 'deities' were nameless forces in the universe personified in order to explain how they interact, giving them personalities and functions supporting the understanding of those systems. Take the interactions between God and Satan as a classic example that i'm familiar with - Satan representing the force of corruption, the natural tendancy for man to have and give into base desires, etc., and God or perhaps more specifically 'Christ' representing the Transcendent nature of man in opposition, in which he desires to do good works, etc.

But, that's on the subjective projection side. So, I tried to consider the place and possible role that any deities have in my life. I'm fairly educated on the pantheons and most of the basic principles that the greek, hindu, roman, egyptian, and babylonian/sumerian gods, so I would expect them to have made the influences in my life that might have had divine origin, given that they are who I am familiar with. Looking at every immediately obvious movement of my life, and then digging into the mundane patterns, I attempted to fit several deific 'personalities' into place, in order to divine their possible influences. Naturally, i was able to identify the possible influence of a couple of dozen different deities from different pantheons - mars/ares in my martial fascination and possibly the domineering and agressive personality of my adolescence. Mercury in my communication and expression tendancies. Bast in my temperment and fascination with the mystical feminine principle.

I have also had some very convincing experiences with the necronomicon entities, from the fifty names to the Elder Gods and a few nasties from places I haven't been to on purpose. They were frightening experiences and affected me in a very real way - yet, by analyzing my experience I can see that the weaknesses taken advantage of, and the elements that were 'presented' to me by positive entities, ultimately were all psychological.

So, do I conclude through all of this that there are many many gods, that there are only some gods with many names, or that there are no gods beyond the governing devices which my mind creates in order to handle my experience and growth in a more versatile manner?

Now, I'm a believer in a flexible reality, which can be individual for everyone, and that necessitates the acceptance that if gods are real for YOU, then they must be real FOR YOU. But, there is an objective aspect of the universe, even of the Source, that is too complex for us to totally understand or grasp. IS the universe ultimately objective, but so vast that we can see any part of it we want without knowing what it really is? Or is it subjective, becoming whatever it wants, and therefore, whatever we want as a part of it?

I have been in the presence of two 'Gods' from differing pantheons, and they made a mark on me at the time. They were intense experiences, not because of their power, but because of their insightfulness and what I gained from them. But, they both occurred while I was involved with their respective pantheons, and are principally similar. So, did those deific forces pick that time to appear to me, or did my mind pick up on the opportunity to utilize a principle understood subconsciously in order to illuminate other principles in my consciousness?

It gets down to an age old question, "Is it real, or in my head?" But more importantly, is either belief ultimately limiting? If we accept that magick is a psychological device to instigate psychological and spiritual growth, are we taking away from what it is? It's still an impressive and complex process.

If you do worship gods of some sort, what engenders your loyalty to your pantheon/God? Why worship at all? Why devote oneself to a higher being, if there can be no validated proof of that beings objective existence? Are you worshipping a principle, knowing full well that you personify that principle in order to worship it? Do you feel that God will grant you something in return? Do you feel that such boons come from the Gods themselves, or that we use their presence in our paradigm to justify the gains we receive?

I realize this is scattered and perhaps less organized than some of my other posts, but it's a very wide debate that I'd like to see take place here, regarding all together the philosophy behind magick's reality, especially regarding deities.

peace

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Nov 26 2006, 01:17 AM

So, this topic is intended to be a battleground for the various viewpoints on what magick is - do you accept a reality of Deities, Spirits, and beings outside yourself on a hierarchy of power that you are destined to either climb or fall short of?

I believe these are manifestations of archetypes. An archetype like a diety is the personification of a force of nature in its perfect or greatest form. A demon is the personification of "darkness", that which we may view as "evil" or inherently reject as a part of human nature (even though some may just be in denial). The forces of nature any archetype represent are real. There are any number of archetypes - demons, angels, super heros, various spirits, faires and more depending on different cultures. The magician works with archetypes to stir within himself the energies of these.

I think of the human body as a sort of manufacturing plant. It constantly creates energy to sustain itself. However it is possible for a skilled individual to tap his/her own "power house" to put it into varying degrees of overdrive. The variations depends on the magician's goal. Big goals require lots of energy. Small ones just the opposite. In order to do this affectively the magician developes a sort of kinship between a specific model of magick (even one personal that is made up). Archetypes are one way to tap a person's ability to produce energy.

Now the production of energy that is usable in any given magickal opperation is one thing. Actually applying that energy to one's environment to manifest desired change is another. This requires that any magician have at least some knowledge of the workings of subtle reality. To gain this knowledge pretty much requires a period of trial and error using different models of magick. The model that works the best is the one the magician developes a kinship with. This is where cerimony, altered states of mind, spellcraft, rituals, energy manipulation ect ect all fall into play.

Of course there are limmitations as well. To produce energy a magician must be able to fuel its production. Then they must also be able to retain enough to accomplish the desired goal. And as with any other factory, producing energy produces waste. So the magician must maintain the quality of their energy through regular purifications. Energy does exist in alterior sources [edit]things like stones, minerals archetypes, planets, animals, plants, even other people[/edit]. Again, however, the magacian must have the ability to manage it to use it. There are also limmitations on exactly what the magician can actually accomplish through magick as well. I believe that through practice a magician can learn to do wonderful things. But the greater the goal the more amount of energy is required and more energy creates volitility. That is the more energy one has to work with the more unstable it becomes and the harder it is to manage. It is possible to manifest something like winning the lottery but I believe to do so one would require the ability to tap an energy source so great that it would be very hard for a single person to control.

It is also possible that more than one person can work together to combine their energy within a "bubble" or ritual area- some place sanctified as "magickal" or sacred is ideal. The problem is competing wills. The only way this is really useful is if the desired goal is mutual between all parties. Otherwise there is no stability to the energy and it doesn't do what its suppose to.

And that pretty much summerizes what I can think of at this time.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Dec 5 2006, 04:57 PM

I believe these are manifestations of archetypes. An archetype like a diety is the personification of a force of nature in its perfect or greatest form. A demon is the personification of "darkness", that which we may view as "evil" or inherently reject as a part of human nature (even though some may just be in denial). The forces of nature any archetype represent are real. There are any number of archetypes - demons, angels, super heros, various spirits, faires and more depending on different cultures. The magician works with archetypes to stir within himself the energies of these.

I think of the human body as a sort of manufacturing plant. It constantly creates energy to sustain itself. However it is possible for a skilled individual to tap his/her own "power house" to put it into varying degrees of overdrive. The variations depends on the magician's goal. Big goals require lots of energy. Small ones just the opposite. In order to do this affectively the magician developes a sort of kinship between a specific model of magick (even one personal that is made up). Archetypes are one way to tap a person's ability to produce energy.

Now the production of energy that is usable in any given magickal opperation is one thing. Actually applying that energy to one's environment to manifest desired change is another. This requires that any magician have at least some knowledge of the workings of subtle reality. To gain this knowledge pretty much requires a period of trial and error using different models of magick. The model that works the best is the one the magician developes a kinship with. This is where cerimony, altered states of mind, spellcraft, rituals, energy manipulation ect ect all fall into play.

Of course there are limmitations as well. To produce energy a magician must be able to fuel its production. Then they must also be able to retain enough to accomplish the desired goal. And as with any other factory, producing energy produces waste. So the magician must maintain the quality of their energy through regular purifications. Energy does exist in alterior sources. Again, however, the magacian must have the ability to manage it to use it. There are also limmitations on exactly what the magician can actually accomplish through magick as well. I believe that through practice a magician can learn to do wonderful things. But the greater the goal the more amount of energy is required and more energy creates volitility. That is the more energy one has to work with the more unstable it becomes and the harder it is to manage. It is possible to manifest something like winning the lottery but I believe to do so one would require the ability to tap an energy source so great that it would be very hard for a single person to control.

It is also possible that more than one person can work together to combine their energy within a "bubble" or ritual area- some place sanctified as "magickal" or sacred is ideal. The problem is competing wills. The only way this is really useful is if the desired goal is mutual between all parties. Otherwise there is no stability to the energy and it doesn't do what its suppose to.

And that pretty much summerizes what I can think of at this time.

I have nothing more to say, Acid09 stole my words/beliefs from me. I truly agree with him. I work with the powers of Darkness and they are entities to me, and they are more realistic and helpful if my beliefs of them and my "connection" with them is stronger.