Lbrp Ritual, is there any differences in respect of the hemispheres? Options

Hi guys i cam across this site http://vsociety.net/ from one member who posted a topic on psiballs. I came to the LBRP explained there http://forums.vsociety.net/topic/7777.0
There is something that intringues me.. As i live in the southern hemisphere, this paragraph interests me:

One also moves in a clockwise direction, to follow the direction of the sun. If you live in the southern hemisphere you travel counter-clockwise, and exchange ADNI in the south for AGLA in the north.

• Starting in the east, drawn the banishing pentagram and vibrate YHVH (Yeh-ho-vah)
• Draw a line to the south and draw the banishing pentagram, vibrate ADNI (A-do-nai)
• Draw a line to the west and draw the banishing pentagram, vibrate AHIH (E-he-ieh)
• Draw a line to the north and draw the banishing pentagram, vibrate AGLA (Ah-goo-lah)
• Draw a line back to the east to complete the circle.

Does that mean that after the 1st penta for YHVH, i turn antoclockwise???? confusing

what i normally do is that i have my compass... i know where it shows east north south west...
for the first penta i do it in the east direction of the compass. .then i move clockwise to go to south for the next penta.. Am i doing it right over here.. else i think i completely sucked in my LBRPs... But i think that invoking the divine with the atah malkuth ... le oh lahm etc is quite powerful to keep shit off.... well some advice from the experienced ones...

Greetings Zugzwang,

You are immensely confused. The diagram you have drawn is not correct. The path of the sun never crosses in the manner you show. During the June solstice the sun rises in the NE and sets in the NW (not SW). During the December solstice the sun rises in the SE and sets in the SW (not NW). What you have presented is an astronomical impossibility. Do your research! Better yet observe the sunrise and sunsets now as the sun is near its southern extreme...notice that both sunrise and sunset occur in the southern half of the sky!

Also you might want to look up the definition of the word "geocentric" in the dictionary as it has nothing to do with what you are arguing. Compare to "heliocentric".

Read those books I posted for you, the confusion will be cleared up. They really help understand all the New Age bullsh*t that is out there. I understand that your terminology derives from Scottish Folklore, but as you will see it has nothing to do with horizon positions.

My point is that for an observer on earth the sun moves along the horizon in two directions (Left to Right and Right to Left) these direction switch at each solstice so either direction can be called sunwise if measured relative to the horizon. THE POSITIONS OF SUNSETS/RISES DO NOT MOVE IN A CLOCKWISE MANNER, you could just as easily say they move counter-clockwise. The term does not come from horizon observation, it likely derives from either astrological charts, or the culturally relevant manner in which solar movement is explained, or the direction in which a shadow cast by a gnomon moves (hence sunwise = clockwise)...but not the suns movement along the horizon.

As for the LBRP, it really does not matter in which direction you move. If within your cosmological model the proper path is clockwise, so be it, or vice versa. You could argue that the sun moves counter-clockwise when looking at the north pole (in the northern hemisphere), and thus the proper motion is counter-clockwise, or you can say that the shadow of a gnomon moves clockwise (as a result of the counter-clockwise solar motion) and therefore the proper motion is clockwise. The explanation is culturally relevant (as to what you find more important) and thus does not hold any real weight.

Additional Note:

Ok, so I've been thinking quite a bit about this sunwise issue. Another explanation of clockwise being associated with sunwise in the northern hemisphere may have to do with where the sun reaches its highest point in temperate regions- such as Scotland (this does not hold true for the tropics b/w latitudes 23.5N and23.5S). In the northern hemisphere at latitudes above 23.5 the daily sun arc will reach its highest point in the southern half of the sky, the reverse is true for southern latitudes. Thus, sunwise could be interpreted as turning in the direction of the high sun (E-S-W-N for Northern latitudes and E-N-W-S for Southern latitudes). The problem is that this does not hold true for the tropics where the sun will reach its highest point directly overhead (zenith) two times a year.

This seems to be the only observable reason as to why clockwise would be considered sunwise. However, it has nothing to do with the path of the sun along the horizon. I still believe that this is a relative concept. While one culture may have found importance in the half of the sky where the sun reaches its maximum on a daily basis, another culture may have found that the movement of the celestial sphere around the visible celestial pole was more important.

For example, take two cultures that live in the northern hemisphere - both observe the movements of the sun. One finds that sunwise is following the direction of the high sun from its rising point and the other determines that sunwise is following the path of the sun(and entire celestial sphere) around the fixed pivot of the cosmos (the celestial pole). The first culture will produce rituals with clockwise movement due to their concept of sunwise, the second culture will produce counter-clockwise rituals also arguing that they are moving sunwise. Both cultures are right!

Thus, the importance of which direction you turn in the LBRP has nothing to do with a universal reality, but rather with a cultural perspective.

This post has been edited by Faustopheles: Dec 28 2006, 09:07 PM

Also you might want to look up the definition of the word "geocentric" in the dictionary as it has nothing to do with what you are arguing. Compare to "heliocentric".

From your tone there alone I can derive three things:
1. You know that I know exactly what geocentric and heliocentric means - along with everything else mentioned throughout this thread.
2. You have a problem with my knowing of these topics.

Ergo, 3. You want to avoid ever having to learn such basics as are covered in this topic and others - so you spend your time here manufacturing lies to disguise exactly what scripted 4D emotional drama you are playing out here with me as part of it.

From this geocentric perspective I can see that changes in what we call seasons can be correlated to how the sun is moving through the sky.

Read those books I posted for you, the confusion will be cleared up.

This is where the condescending tone throughout your posts reaches it's height! I've read skywatchers but not the other two. What I know of astrology stems from the barbara clow books - which reminds me; when I popped up into chelmsford not long ago I meet a group of professional astrologers who in all seriousness could only look at the charts and say "that's interesting". Even when asked about the nature of a trine they couldn't really say anything - and some folks must pay these people for their interpretations!

I asked them about how astrology actually works and one person, I've since forgotten his name, waffled on about the energetic state of the solar system and how planets focus energy from the zodiacal stars, without an actual unifying concept behind it all - when it was patent to me that the planets are essentially vortexes in the aether, just like the chakra model.

7 ancestral planets
7 wheels
7 metals
7 days
etc.
Which can be overlaid on the babalon yantra or the seed of life pattern.

If you look into stan tenen's or dan winter's work you'll see the 7 turn labyrinth spells out the first few letters in genesis, which contains the rest of the torah/bible (just as the phi spiral contains itself, as it's a recursive form - the same way you can grow a tree from a seed or leaf, which contains in itself the same branching pattern. The correspondences go on and on... just like the phi spiral!).

My point is that for an observer on earth the sun moves along the horizon in two directions (Left to Right and Right to Left) these direction switch at each solstice so either direction can be called sunwise if measured relative to the horizon. THE POSITIONS OF SUNSETS/RISES DO NOT MOVE IN A CLOCKWISE MANNER, you could just as easily say they move counter-clockwise (...) you could argue that the sun moves counter-clockwise when looking at the north pole (in the northern hemisphere), and thus the proper motion is counter-clockwise, or you can say that the shadow of a gnomon moves clockwise (as a result of the counter-clockwise solar motion) and therefore the proper motion is clockwise. The explanation is culturally relevant (as to what you find more important) and thus does not hold any real weight.

You're wrong, still. The terms sunwise and widdershins are based on the movement of the sun throughout the year. You won't find any argument that sunwise (whether that's clockwise or anti-clockwise to us, depending on where you are in the universe and your planet's movement/axial tilt in relation to your sun) is the more 'important' for reasons I've already detailed (temperature, exposure to more sunlight, etc - which effects all life on this planet).

From summer to winter, sunwise: the birth and progression of life. The white sun.
From winter to summer, widdershins: the death and rebirth of life. The black sun.

Which has been used for thousands of years in one guise or another and this is the reason we move about the circle clockwise during the LBRP. As I've already said, there's no way to make it any clearer.

This post has been edited by Zugzwang: Dec 29 2006, 10:58 AM