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Greetings Zugzwang,
I'm sorry if I came across in a condescending manner, that was not my intention. I am solely trying to sort out a mistake that may help you understand the motion of the sun across the horizon. My other goal was to explain how sunwise and widdershins are cultural concepts and NOT astronomical universals, and how such cultural interpretations will define the proper motion in ritual.
First re-read my posts above, I pointed out a critical flaw in your concept...this is the root of your confusion. In the "height of summer" (i.e. northern solstice for the northern hemisphere) the sun travels its northern-most path. This means that the sun rises in the Northeast and sets in the Northwest...you cannot possibly argue anything else. Similarly in the "depths of winter" (southern solstice for the southern hemisphere) the sun rises in the Southeast and sets in the Southwest. Not as you are arguing (SE-NW and NE-SW). The sun's path does not cross.
Second. The movement of the sun along the horizon is back and forth (i.e. it oscillates). The example I'll give you is for the northern hemisphere. During the "depths of winter" the sun is rising and setting at its southern extreme (SE and SW), ok? As the days progress after this winter solstice the sunrises begin to move northwards (right to left) until it reaches the center of its path (due east) on the day of equinox. After equinox the sunrises continue moving from right to left until we reach the "height of summer" (northern solstice). The sunrises seem to not move for a period of 2-3 days (hence "solstice"). Then the sun begins to RETURN along its path, CHANGING DIRECTION, and moves southwards (left to right). The same is happening with the sunsets except the directions are reversed so that from winter to summer you are viewing the sunsets left to right, and from summer to winter they move right to left. So along the horizon the suns path cannot be clockwise or counterclockwise as it is both. Sunwise and Widdershin refers to the daily path of the sun over our heads (see my post above regarding the high point of the sun), not movement along the horizon.
As to the geocentirc debate (do yourself a favor and look up what it means, it is the model of the solar system, to deny it is to say that the planets and sun revolve around earth)... you seem to think that I don't value positional astronomy. This is not the case otherwise I would not have recommended the books that I did. When you read through them you will notice that they are dedicated to showing how cultures across the planet used solar, stellar, and lunar movement to plan ceremonies, agricultural events, and civic duties. The point that all three authors make is that there are astronomical universals and relative cultural interpretations. While winter solstice may be more important to one culture summer solstice is more important to the other (this has a lot to do with latitude, as different latitudes experience the seasons differently). While one culture may consider the natural motion of the heavens to be clockwise (based on the high-point of the sun) another considers it to be counter clockwise (based on the rotation of the sun around the celestial pole).This happens even for two cultures in the same hemisphere, thus, both left to right and right to left writing systems developed in the northern hemisphere. Both these cultures will argue that their writing systems (and movement in ritual) reflects the natural order of the cosmos, and both cultures are right.
I do suggest that you read through these books, you will find a wealth of information. These authors are archaeoastronomers- meaning they have dedicated their lives to studying astronomy and how past peoples incorporated astronomy to bring order to the chaotic patterns of nature...its a fascinating field!
If you want to continue this debate, I suggest you start another thread- as we have moved away from the LBRP.
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Lbrp Ritual, is there any differences in respect of the hemispheres?
mystick Lbrp Ritual Jul 11 2006, 01:13 AM
Jul 11 2006, 01:13 AM
