Reincarnation? Options

Can anyone give me some good arguments for Reincarnation?

I have myself quarreled inside when it comes to this topic.
I prefer however to keep disciplins apart and keep the Relegio/Mystical to it self and not blend in natural science.

Scientifically the most importand factor defining life is procreation.

Since most of my spirtual work has been Hermetic and Kabbalistic i tend to see thing through those traditions.

The "wheel" of rebirth, or Samsara of the Hindus does not really have an equivalent in either Kabbala or Hermetisism even if the "climbing" towards the light of anihilation, Nirvana does (in the case of Kabbala it would be Kether).

I HAVE however speculated in the sphere of Yesod, working as a final matrix for creation might harbour som "stuff" or "memories", patterns of the created on the way up after death and that energy of a sort corresponding might "grab" it in going down to be created.

This could explain being reborn as severel different people as one Dalai Lama was.

This is not well thought through Kabbala or canonic in anyway though.
My main concern is the here and now.

Sometimes rather naive arguments like "the little flowers returning in spring" are used. Thing is, its not the same flowers. They procreated and rotted.

*Feed the worms*

A very good book on reincarnation is called "Old Souls" by Tom Shroder. The book follows Dr. Ian Stevenson to Beirut and India to investigate cases of children who recall past life details. Most of the children are born knowing intimate details of families they've never met. The families generally live within 50-100 miles from the children's homes. The kids know names, dates, places and even resemble the people they claim to have been in past lives. Dr. Stevenson is a man who has devoted his entire life to researching these cases and investigating them, even at the cost of his medical career.

Some commonalities in the cases are; that reincarnation usually occurs within 8 months of death, karma seems to have no effect at all on the types of lives the souls are reborn into, birthmarks seem to be scars from past life injuries. Also, there are claims the the spirit world mourns a rebirth in the same fashion that we mourn a death on earth.

It's a very scientific investigation in reincarnation and an excellent read. I came away from the book with this thought - Does it really matter if reincarnation exists if you cannot remember your past lives? What is the difference between a reincarnated soul and a new soul if no memory of the event exists?

Check out the book if this topic interests you. I don't think there is a better book on the subject.

As someone who remembers being reincarnated more than once...and by CHOICE, I KNOW that reincarnation is a very real, tangible thing. I dont know if it varies with different entities, it probably does, but i have lived both animal and human lives, mostly female, sometimes with single objectives, and sometimes just to simply exist. I have been murdered at least twice, written several novels (ill never know if they were published), and ive been hunted and eaten. Let me tell you, it sucks to be gazelle.

Despite my memories, and personal experiences, in this specific lifetime i have tried to attach some logical reasoning to why reincarnation might exist, what its process would be, and other significant factors. My twin brother, too, has discussed and argued different philosophies regarding it. Give and take a few points, we generally agree on the same things:

Time is not lateral. You can live a life more than once. The same life can have very different results. Some souls have the choice of what "time" they enter into. For most though, life is a continuity spanning from one end to the other and there is little variation from this path. For most, there is a past, a present, and a future.

The soul is seperate from the body. Well duh.

There are Old souls, and there are New souls. My brother is an old soul. Im not sure how old i am, but i think i am relatively new on the spectrum of aging souls. What i can surmise from this is that souls are constantly being born...which leads to the question: where are they coming from? This source must be ever expanding and virile to be animating so many and without time constraints.

There is a period between transmutation: what we call "limbo". It is a time of reflection, decay, and sometimes an oppurtunity to return to the source. In order to move on, in either instance (either to go to the next life form, or return to the source) one must be able to give up a past identity, past knowledge or realizations and characteristics. It is not easy, and it might take millions of years for some. For others, there is an immediate return. It is the "River of Lethe" before one's return that makes us forget or let go of past lives. As painful as it is, and it IS torturous, be glad that it exists.

There is a Source: Dont get me started on it. "Being" "God" call "it" what you will, but it is in general an assemblance of life in one mass. It is a "heaven" of sorts, only there is no individual...no such thing as seperate souls. LIFE. Everything every one is All, the Entirety.


So these are the general points my brother and i agree on. I could go on and on about Why, and i have several ideas. I also have a lot of questions stemming from my theories and my experience. If there is the Epitomy of everything in the Source....then is there an epitome of Nothing? Where are we headed to, and how does the latest evolution of sentient life progress us towards out destination? Do we have a destination assuming that our Origin is selfsustaining and paradoxical in ITS own origin? So many questions. But i thought it was best to lay the ground work out first...and get some feed back. After all, there is always someone out there who knows more, whose lived more lives(lol).

P.S (lol) I thought the scientific approach would be to first list my observations. Theories will come later, much later.

IMO the goal of human existence is the attainment of the stature of the perfect man, and only through a series of reincarnation can this achievement be realised.

Jesus, The Buddha, Mohammad, the Prophets, countless of unnamed and silent people throughout history have understood this principle, and their lives have reflected the decency which humans very often display. It is not the need of remembering past lives themselves - the recollection of precise events, people, possessions, but the ability to draw on the subliminal experiences and put them to good use in the present incarnation.

I think that in the case of Jesus, his "perfection" was so enigmatic and startling to the very unsophisticated individual of that time, that his innate goodess was rewarded with the mantle of deity. History bears testament to a successful spin-doctor, Saul of Tarsus! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyway that is just a personal thought.

I love your post Valkyrie, as you have hit the reincarnation nail on the head, but it might be more diplomatic to speak of Old Souls and Young Souls, rather than "new souls", which some people might take a dim view of being called. You are very definately a Mature Soul! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/starspin.gif)





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Much love to Alafair. Your reply was enjoyed.

I have often entertained the idea that perfection was the goal. The paragon of our race, as i was speaking to a friend about, could possibly already have come and gone unnoticed in this world. If "perfection" is listed under very specific terms, the pursuit of it may be very difficult indeed, and for those that believe demons and angels can strive for such power and very nearly get it, there is only a little hope for humankind. But if there is no specific definition for "perfection" then the simple goal of attaining could have been met a long time ago, and our widely varying definitions would not have recognized such divinity. Some might argue this is the Jesus role. And perhaps, humans would reject "the prophet" because he hit too close to home, it was alienating. 'home' being the subject of human perfection. If this is the case, it could explain why we made a god out of him, instead of merely embracing him as one of our own. In any case, the "perfection" idea is a cult classic.

i must make a point of emphasizing animal reincarnation. Does this perfection theory exclude animal paragons? Yes, humans are animals too yet, in which case, could there be a paragon other than human that might fulfill all our souls' life quests in the form of one perfect itty bitty ant? Can one argue that human intelligence holds the key to perfection? If this were so, why do we live animal lives? Does each and every one of us strive towards this goal...the majority of us never actually attaining such enlightenment but simply being engulfed back into the Source prematurely? I find that however close to perfection an individual might get, would not determine if he or she or it Returned to the perfection of the source.

On second thought however I could definately embrace the idea. There is a possibility that this perfection is not life form specific at all, but rather a method of living life. In which case, could this method Return us to the source before we die and face the transition? Could we in effect simply vanish into the great Being...one day an enlightened reincarnation the next "walking with God" no trace to be found? I cant imagine if anyone ever obtained so said perfection, the Source would allow it to stay seperate and in such a fragmented existence. There is little possibility that perfection exists outside the plain of the Source. But could it be true? Here is the question: Does all perfection stem from the Source? Can this shallow existence allow for a life of uncompromised Perfection?

This post has been edited by valkyrie: Feb 8 2007, 02:19 PM

I figure this subject is not a popular one anymore....im getting no replies, and i dont solely depend on my own opinion, people! But im going to add to the thread just the same so here goes.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)


I wrote this a while back but it is a dangerous philosophy that threatens to disolve all the borders i put up between me and the rest of the world:

When you die, you will feel a stubborn familiarity. You’ll fight, but you will slip out of your body, and momentarily, you will curse because your body is not obeying you. Then you will accept your fate and no, not surrender…you will simply acknowledge there is no other way to exist now. Sometimes you will make the decision, sometimes it is made for you…but when you return to the living world…you will once again be born in red…in bloodshed, in cries of pain and happiness. And then, there is no other way to exist either. You live die and live and there is no in between. In death there is life, and in life there is death. Why must you long for eternal life? When you have the sublime cycle ever organizing you into a long and narrow line of being? All roads lead to one…it is the path to Avalon, to Heaven, to Alexander…all names are one. The Great Being will take you to its infinite bosom, and you will add to its identity as you do now…ever increasing, ever growing and pleasing. There is eternity in our eyes…we just think we must earn it. That we must own it. No…we mustn’t try…there is wasted energy in that. We must Be.

My mantra? All the world is me and I am all of the world. When i was a kid, i used to get the impression that everyone else was just bumping bodies...that no one else had definition or real conscious reasoning. They were all just automatons that were there to test and please me. I imagined that they were all just my own creations. Then i told myself i was being selfish. That everyone has their own emotions, and of course i had no way of proving that, and it made me feel small. But with the Source in mind, the reason behind the incarnation of individuals seems clear to me: its just another million different ways to exist. In reality, there is no one reality...and all is one and one is many.

Then i got to thinking, WHY do all of us exist? Perhaps it was the pursuit of perfection, or the Source is in a constant state of birth and death? There are a million different whys, but no actual right or wrong answer. It couldnt be far from the truth...any other reasoning seemed flawed. And my thoughts spiraled and colapsed but built back up again...with no real object in mind, just a question. The one question that everyone always asks but takes a lifetime trying to figure out. And even when say, a person finally figures it out they can still remain in their seperate world, if they so choose. I have to make my theory, the one argument that seems to be supported everytime im reborn or new life comes into this world: Are we here simply to exist? Is each seperate life given oppurtunity to answer such a question, and therefore is given immortality in such an infinite resource of answers?

"There is a possibility that this perfection is not life form specific at all, but rather a method of living life." (to quote myself earlier) If this is true, then how many different methods of living life are there? Infinite. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angry_pissed_off_emoticon.gif) sorry im not trying to make heads explode. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

im posting a good site that supports the jesus theme Alafair mentioned. For those who are interested: http://www.crystalinks.com/edgar_cayce.html

check it out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

This post has been edited by valkyrie: Mar 8 2007, 06:25 PM