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Hi,
i'm new here and i have wanted to post but it takes forever to be included in the system. at any rate - i have done some invocation/evocation (i'm new still haven't worked out the difference) and this was all done about a year - yr and a half ago. i called a variety of spirits from the goetia because my visualization skills are next to nothing (i was desperate for help at the time so didn't stop to consider these shortcomings in my work) but was surprisingly successful for one so new - maybe it was the smell of a newbie that drew such success at any rate i don't feel that i would want to continue with any workings with the goetia. i am disinclined to the use of the system because i feel that slavery whether it be a spirit or another human is wrong. At any rate, my goal at the time at the evocations was not to exert control but solicit aid. in my negotians however - i know that i was lacking - but by the same token i would not take the time to ask questions here if i did not feel that such questions were warranted. Forgive me if i seem to be rambling a bit - but you must understand the circumstances from which i am posting in order to be able to answer the questions that follow. i read on here that some of you more seasoned practitioners have not had any spirits manifest themselves through the smoke of the incense that you burned - i have. possibly for the simple reason that my visualization skills are lacking - but perhaps there are other reasons that i could only fathom to guess? any ideas as to why they would choose to show themselves to an inherent newbie such as myself would be very interesting to know. the second thing is that one of the spirits that i called also manifested by voice... now he has since made his presence known - in fact more recently - but i am curious as to why he would choose to make his presence known after so long - and especially assuming that he was disinclined to give me a straight answer when i made my request. another thing that is very puzzling to me is that last night another spirit that i had called upon (but had forgotten about until last night) chose to make his presence known and now i'm not sure of his intent. have any of you encountered something similar to this? i'm sure that most of you weren't as new to this when you first started as i was - nor does it seem that you would undertake an endeaver which you don't fully understand. mine was simply an act of desperation in a private matter which has yet to be resolved - yet seems like it could swing one way or the other as far as those called upon to help me. tho i have been told that if it's been a while (like a yr) they're answer was more likely to be negative. Anyone with further information regarding this - or even willing to wage a guess would be most appreciated.
thanks
Sera

(Meet the zombies.)

I don't consider the grimoires any more valid than Harry Potter, the ingredients in a Snickers bar, or a hand drawn picture of an elephant giving a haircut to a mouse.

Humans seem to desperately want to place their beliefs in the tradition of something ancient. If something has an old age, for some gaddamn reason it gives people a false confidence of validity. It probably has to do with insecurity and identifying with something larger than oneself. For instance, in ancient China certain scrolls were improperly dated or else attributed to the Yellow Emperor, Laozi or some other mythical figure. All of a sudden this otherwise innocuous document is now of imminent importance. This is a scam quite popular in Western occult history and even today.

It doesn't matter how foolish, unscientific, or ahistorical aspects of the Old or New Testament are people often defer to the side of ancient history. If "billions" of people believe it, there must be something to it, right? No, in actuality "billions" of people believing in the Judeo Christian God and its line up of angels is more of a sad look at cultural imperialism over the last 1500 years than anything else. Biblical history is a lot more useful for studying Western art and literature (which any educated person should be doing) than for the occult, unless this is a paradigm you enjoy working with and are inspired by (I feel sorry for you if it is.)

This is not to say that you can't recycle the symbolism of the Goetia or any other musty old magickal text and make use of it. You can. But this is dangerous, unnecessary, and ultimately a prison. The most impressive magick comes from your heart. It comes from your creativity, your soul, your God, your subconscious, or whatever it is you have. Magick is the ultimate artistic interaction with your reality. There's no faking it and when you experience it you'll feel empathy for those stuck chasing the ghosts of others rather than trusting in themselves. Maybe the Goetia can be your training wheels but know that the paradigms of others are TRAPS and most people never escape from them. They parrot the rituals and beliefs of others in hopes of attaining what those others did without ever thinking that the reason these ever worked (that is IF they ever worked) is because they were deeply personal.

Good day.

(Meet the zombies.)

I don't consider the grimoires any more valid than Harry Potter, the ingredients in a Snickers bar, or a hand drawn picture of an elephant giving a haircut to a mouse.

I don't necessarily think the grimoires are "more valid" than anything else that works. I think the imagery is cool. I like to make the seals and the other required tools. Most importantly, it works. A lot of systems that rely heavily on creativity or free form magic simply do not.

Humans seem to desperately want to place their beliefs in the tradition of something ancient. If something has an old age, for some gaddamn reason it gives people a false confidence of validity. It probably has to do with insecurity and identifying with something larger than oneself. For instance, in ancient China certain scrolls were improperly dated or else attributed to the Yellow Emperor, Laozi or some other mythical figure. All of a sudden this otherwise innocuous document is now of imminent importance. This is a scam quite popular in Western occult history and even today.

A. E. Waite commented that "the besetting bibliographic sins of the grimoires are back-dating and imputed authorship."

Hopefully we can have a civil discourse without the need for ad-hominems.

Antiquity does not lend power to occult work. Are we clear on this? Yes? Good.

I think that archeological finds are important, old documents, histories, and logs of events, these things have value that goes far beyond their "spiritual significance" whatever they may imply. They are worth serious study. -It doesn't matter how foolish, unscientific, or ahistorical aspects of the Old or New Testament are people often defer to the side of ancient history. If "billions" of people believe it, there must be something to it, right?

You imply that the grimoires have become out-dated and obsolete due to unspecified "advances." What precisely has become obsolete, at what point did it become so, and what advances have arisen to replace it?

Billions of people believe in God, angels, etc... The paradigm that the grimoires take for a foundation is very much alive and well. Their belief doesn't lend any effectiveness to the system, but it's definitely not so arcane. Compared to ancient Buddhism, Aztec mythology, or Greek and Latin deities, the grimoires are using a paradigm in current use. It is unreasonable to say that they are out-dated on account of their reliance on monotheism.


-No, in actuality "billions" of people believing in the Judeo Christian God and its line up of angels is more of a sad look at cultural imperialism over the last 1500 years than anything else. Biblical history is a lot more useful for studying Western art and literature (which any educated person should be doing) than for the occult, unless this is a paradigm you enjoy working with and are inspired by (I feel sorry for you if it is.)

Serious study of the Bible, the Koran, and apocryphal texts is of extreme importance to the student of demonology. Study of a subject does not require unwavering belief in its doctrines. I report my studies, experiments, and results, I have never attributed any special spiritual significance to any of it.

I prefer to think that magic appeals to people for what it can do. Works of wonder, gain for small effort, joy despite opposition... people of all religions and cultures appreciate magic, even if they are suspicious of its practitioners. You would "feel sorry for me" if I were a devout Jew practicing an art attributed to Solomon, invoking names of my God and subjugating the enemies of his elect? There is magic in all cultures, so why would you feel sorry for someone who finds (and uses) the magic in his or her own?

-This is not to say that you can't recycle the symbolism of the Goetia or any other musty old magickal text and make use of it.

The grimoires make several clear assertions. They lay out a series of actions you must perform, under specific conditions, and they describe the expected results of the actions. To chop up the work and use what you "like" about it for something else is assuming that the grimoire works without any experimental data to give credibility to the parts you extract. I believe it is important to experience a ritual (whether Goetia, the Necronomicon, or any sort of spell) in its original form before making any claim to know how it works at all, or even if it works at all.

Is this such a terribly zombie-like thing to say? Is it so absurd to ask that people cook with a cookbook before inventing their own pies and cakes and sauces? I am advocating a real scientific investigation of any occult work you undertake. If you have instructions, follow them perfectly, and evaluate the effects. Until you have done so, you can only speak with ignorance and prejudice.

-You can. But this is dangerous, unnecessary, and ultimately a prison. The most impressive magick comes from your heart. It comes from your creativity, your soul, your God, your subconscious, or whatever it is you have. Magick is the ultimate artistic interaction with your reality. There's no faking it and when you experience it you'll feel empathy for those stuck chasing the ghosts of others rather than trusting in themselves.

You can fart in a jar and call it a god, but try getting that god to overthrow a city, or even get you a date.

Most of the occultists I know who avoid the grimoires, especially young occultists, do so out of a disdain for monotheism. That in itself is fine, but it's a shame to see so many of them latch on to nonsense and ineffective techniques just to avoid trying something for S&G that happens to invoke Jehovah.

I enjoy creating the tools of Goetia, studying it, letting it be the inspiration for my art. I also have the tools of other systems of magic, and have used them. There is no modern magical instruction I consider superior to the classic grimoires, nor do I feel they offer anything more. In fact, they offer much less in terms of result. I consider the majority nothing more than glorified self-help books.

-Maybe the Goetia can be your training wheels but know that the paradigms of others are TRAPS and most people never escape from them. They parrot the rituals and beliefs of others in hopes of attaining what those others did without ever thinking that the reason these ever worked (that is IF they ever worked) is because they were deeply personal.

As I have said before on these forums, the technical foundation of the grimoires stems from pacts or covenants. The names, sigils, powers, etc... are those deemed appropriate by the authors. It could have just as well been any other names and sigils, but the authors chose those out of a personal affinity for them. They do not necessarily reflect anything "true," it is a user-interface media through which others can access the system.

Do you feel trapped by your cookbooks? Do you feel trapped by manuals of electronic circuits, or diagrams on how to build a staircase?

In what ways do you consider the Goetia a "trap." Who set the "trap?" Why is it dangerous to get "caught" in it?

Magic is interesting to me for what it can do, not for what it means or for how it reflects my personal spirituality. If a spell involved dancing around like a chicken while invoking ludicrous names, and was widely reputed to be effective, you can bet I'd try it and see rather than dismiss it as inane. So what if it's not personal, meaningful, or cutting-edge? I'm more interested in what works and what can be done with that.

I can definitely appreciate your opinion - i think that having a "personal" touch to it is very much up to the person interacting with said magic. i don't believe any magick can really ever become truly obsolete unless it stops working. the only prerequisite to something working whether it be a grimoire or something made up on your own is belief. if you believe in it then something will happen on at least 7 out of 10 attempts - or such is the way i feel. now i could be wrong statistically as some things won't work no matter how much you believe in them. i know that i could no more destroy a town by fire than call forth a flood from dry land - no matter how hard i beileved that i was powerful enough to do such a thing. i believe that the grimoires work simply because they have been a tested and true system similar to an educational institution. Schools aren't going to become obsolete just because we have the ability to take classes online - so the same goes for instructions from previous years of experience left to us in the form of histories, bibliographies, and grimoires of magick. at the time they were written they were tested and approved by the magicians that used them. My primary point here being that both of you are correct in your observations though different in your beliefs and opinions both points are valid. On the one hand magick is EXTREMELY personal and should be dealt with on a personal basis while at the same time it is also wise to look to the past and recognize what has worked so that one can continue creating his or her own path and incorporating variances from other systems. the only thing that MUST remain true - is that it work for the individual in the manner to which the individual originally intended.
sera

(Meet the zombies.)

I don't consider the grimoires any more valid than Harry Potter, the ingredients in a Snickers bar, or a hand drawn picture of an elephant giving a haircut to a mouse.

I don't necessarily think the grimoires are "more valid" than anything else that works. I think the imagery is cool. I like to make the seals and the other required tools. Most importantly, it works. A lot of systems that rely heavily on creativity or free form magic simply do not.

Humans seem to desperately want to place their beliefs in the tradition of something ancient. If something has an old age, for some gaddamn reason it gives people a false confidence of validity. It probably has to do with insecurity and identifying with something larger than oneself. For instance, in ancient China certain scrolls were improperly dated or else attributed to the Yellow Emperor, Laozi or some other mythical figure. All of a sudden this otherwise innocuous document is now of imminent importance. This is a scam quite popular in Western occult history and even today.

A. E. Waite commented that "the besetting bibliographic sins of the grimoires are back-dating and imputed authorship."

Hopefully we can have a civil discourse without the need for ad-hominems.

Antiquity does not lend power to occult work. Are we clear on this? Yes? Good.

I think that archeological finds are important, old documents, histories, and logs of events, these things have value that goes far beyond their "spiritual significance" whatever they may imply. They are worth serious study. -It doesn't matter how foolish, unscientific, or ahistorical aspects of the Old or New Testament are people often defer to the side of ancient history. If "billions" of people believe it, there must be something to it, right?

You imply that the grimoires have become out-dated and obsolete due to unspecified "advances." What precisely has become obsolete, at what point did it become so, and what advances have arisen to replace it?

Billions of people believe in God, angels, etc... The paradigm that the grimoires take for a foundation is very much alive and well. Their belief doesn't lend any effectiveness to the system, but it's definitely not so arcane. Compared to ancient Buddhism, Aztec mythology, or Greek and Latin deities, the grimoires are using a paradigm in current use. It is unreasonable to say that they are out-dated on account of their reliance on monotheism.
-No, in actuality "billions" of people believing in the Judeo Christian God and its line up of angels is more of a sad look at cultural imperialism over the last 1500 years than anything else. Biblical history is a lot more useful for studying Western art and literature (which any educated person should be doing) than for the occult, unless this is a paradigm you enjoy working with and are inspired by (I feel sorry for you if it is.)

Serious study of the Bible, the Koran, and apocryphal texts is of extreme importance to the student of demonology. Study of a subject does not require unwavering belief in its doctrines. I report my studies, experiments, and results, I have never attributed any special spiritual significance to any of it.

I prefer to think that magic appeals to people for what it can do. Works of wonder, gain for small effort, joy despite opposition... people of all religions and cultures appreciate magic, even if they are suspicious of its practitioners. You would "feel sorry for me" if I were a devout Jew practicing an art attributed to Solomon, invoking names of my God and subjugating the enemies of his elect? There is magic in all cultures, so why would you feel sorry for someone who finds (and uses) the magic in his or her own?

-This is not to say that you can't recycle the symbolism of the Goetia or any other musty old magickal text and make use of it.

The grimoires make several clear assertions. They lay out a series of actions you must perform, under specific conditions, and they describe the expected results of the actions. To chop up the work and use what you "like" about it for something else is assuming that the grimoire works without any experimental data to give credibility to the parts you extract. I believe it is important to experience a ritual (whether Goetia, the Necronomicon, or any sort of spell) in its original form before making any claim to know how it works at all, or even if it works at all.

Is this such a terribly zombie-like thing to say? Is it so absurd to ask that people cook with a cookbook before inventing their own pies and cakes and sauces? I am advocating a real scientific investigation of any occult work you undertake. If you have instructions, follow them perfectly, and evaluate the effects. Until you have done so, you can only speak with ignorance and prejudice.

-You can. But this is dangerous, unnecessary, and ultimately a prison. The most impressive magick comes from your heart. It comes from your creativity, your soul, your God, your subconscious, or whatever it is you have. Magick is the ultimate artistic interaction with your reality. There's no faking it and when you experience it you'll feel empathy for those stuck chasing the ghosts of others rather than trusting in themselves.

You can fart in a jar and call it a god, but try getting that god to overthrow a city, or even get you a date.

Most of the occultists I know who avoid the grimoires, especially young occultists, do so out of a disdain for monotheism. That in itself is fine, but it's a shame to see so many of them latch on to nonsense and ineffective techniques just to avoid trying something for S&G that happens to invoke Jehovah.

I enjoy creating the tools of Goetia, studying it, letting it be the inspiration for my art. I also have the tools of other systems of magic, and have used them. There is no modern magical instruction I consider superior to the classic grimoires, nor do I feel they offer anything more. In fact, they offer much less in terms of result. I consider the majority nothing more than glorified self-help books.

-Maybe the Goetia can be your training wheels but know that the paradigms of others are TRAPS and most people never escape from them. They parrot the rituals and beliefs of others in hopes of attaining what those others did without ever thinking that the reason these ever worked (that is IF they ever worked) is because they were deeply personal.

As I have said before on these forums, the technical foundation of the grimoires stems from pacts or covenants. The names, sigils, powers, etc... are those deemed appropriate by the authors. It could have just as well been any other names and sigils, but the authors chose those out of a personal affinity for them. They do not necessarily reflect anything "true," it is a user-interface media through which others can access the system.

Do you feel trapped by your cookbooks? Do you feel trapped by manuals of electronic circuits, or diagrams on how to build a staircase?

In what ways do you consider the Goetia a "trap." Who set the "trap?" Why is it dangerous to get "caught" in it?

Magic is interesting to me for what it can do, not for what it means or for how it reflects my personal spirituality. If a spell involved dancing around like a chicken while invoking ludicrous names, and was widely reputed to be effective, you can bet I'd try it and see rather than dismiss it as inane. So what if it's not personal, meaningful, or cutting-edge? I'm more interested in what works and what can be done with that.